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MESSAGE
DATE 2024-02-18
FROM Mithun Bhattacharya
SUBJECT Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] HTTPd Devs Considered Harmful to
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References:


In-Reply-To:
From: Mithun Bhattacharya
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2024 15:31:01 -0600
Message-ID:
To: mod_perl list
Subject: Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] HTTPd Devs Considered Harmful to
Apache2::Request users
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Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0393243486=="
Errors-To: hangout-bounces-at-nylxs.com
Sender: "Hangout"

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Could you clarify this - 2.17 has a critical bug and 2.18 is about to come
out which doesn't have a good enough patch so how would trunk be any better=
?

Also how is this passing make test or were the test cases modified to make
the bug pass ?

On Sun, Feb 18, 2024, 1:12=E2=80=AFPM Joe Schaefer wro=
te:

> Trunk is the safe bet.
>
> Joe Schaefer, Ph.D.
>
> Orion - The Enterprise Jamstack Wiki
>
>
> 954.253.3732
>
>
>
>
> On Sun, Feb 18, 2024 at 2:11=E2=80=AFPM Mithun Bhattacharya .com>
> wrote:
>
>> So is there a cleaner/saner version of libapreq2 or is the 2012 version
>> better ?
>>
>> On Sun, Feb 18, 2024, 12:58=E2=80=AFPM Joe Schaefer =
wrote:
>>
>>> For the past 25 years, I have been the lead developer of the libapreq2
>>> subproject within the Apache HTTPd Server Parent Project. The original =
idea
>>> of libapreq as a safe/performant HTML form and Cookie parsing library c=
ame
>>> out of a collaboration between Lincoln Stein and Doug MacEachern in the
>>> late 90s.
>>>
>>> It was my vision back then to transform the library into a generic,
>>> non-Perl related C library that would support language bindings from ot=
her
>>> programming languages, which is why I pushed for the project to be home=
s
>>> under the HTTPd umbrella instead of the Apache-Perl project.
>>>
>>> While this vision was wildly successful, with language bindings
>>> available for several languages like Perl, TCL, R, etc, ever since abou=
t
>>> 2010 its proven tragic for the existing user community consisting of al=
l of
>>> them, not just Perl.
>>>
>>> What happened? Philip Gollucci, a Perl/FreeBSD olleague of mine at the
>>> time, started agitating that we promote the project to be released from
>>> inside the HTTPd server itself. What Philip didn=E2=80=99t know very we=
ll back then
>>> was how utterly vapid and territorial that team had become, which would
>>> have meant having to collaborate with them directly on user-facing
>>> decisions about the code base.
>>>
>>> In 2012, Philip got what he wanted and I stopped resisting, so he forke=
d
>>> the existing project and copied the C library components into HTTPd cor=
e.
>>>
>>> In 2016 I resigned from the Foundation en masse. You can guess the
>>> reasons.
>>>
>>> In 2020 or so, Google=E2=80=99s Security Team took advantage of an alph=
a release
>>> of httpd 2.5 by fuzzing its 8 year old copy of apreq. It found a few
>>> hotspots that needed repair.
>>>
>>> Instead of having the courtesy of reaching out to me, or anyone else
>>> involved in development of apreq, a junior engineer on the HTTPd team w=
ent
>>> about the business of =E2=80=9Cbug fixing=E2=80=9D the vulnerabilities =
Google found. You
>>> can see a record of his trial and error work in every release since the=
n.
>>>
>>> But the coup de grace was the 2022 release of 2.17, wherein the rookie
>>> developer purposely introduced a fatal bug into the codebase, breaking =
a
>>> fifteen year old regression test.
>>>
>>> If you are wondering how something with a broken regression test winds
>>> up on CPAN, you=E2=80=99ll have to look into how RELENG is done in the =
server
>>> project.
>>>
>>> Long story short, they commented out the test and shipped it anyway, an=
d
>>> called it a Security Release that fixed a vulnerability every prior rel=
ease
>>> was susceptible to.
>>>
>>> Why do I care now? Because I=E2=80=99m the sucker users reach out to fo=
r answers
>>> as a known subject matter expert.
>>>
>>> This sucks, but I=E2=80=99m sorry to tell you that my days wearing the =
Superman
>>> cape at Apache ended 8 years ago.
>>>
>>> --
>>> Joe Schaefer, Ph.D.
>>>
>>> Orion - The Enterprise Jamstack Wiki
>>>
>>>
>>> 954.253.3732
>>>
>>>
>>>

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Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Could you clarify this - 2.17 has a critical bug and=
2.18 is about to come out which doesn't have a good enough patch so ho=
w would trunk be any better?

uto">Also how is this passing make test or were the test cases modified to =
make the bug pass ?

=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Sun, Feb 18, 2024, 1:12=E2=80=AFPM Joe Sch=
aefer <joe-at-sunstarsys.com> =
wrote:
x;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
Trunk is t=
he safe bet.



dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Sun, Feb 18, 2024 at 2:11=E2=80=AFPM M=
ithun Bhattacharya <" rel=3D"noreferrer">mithnb-at-gmail.com> wrote:
lass=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;=
padding-left:1ex">
So is there a cleaner/saner version of =
libapreq2 or is the 2012 version better ?

e">
On Sun, Feb 18, 2024, 12:58=E2=80=
=AFPM Joe Schaefer <nk" rel=3D"noreferrer">joe-at-sunstarsys.com> wrote:
te class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc so=
lid;padding-left:1ex">
);font-family:Verdana,Geneva,sans-serif;font-size:13.3333px;background-colo=
r:rgb(246,246,239)">For the past 25 years, I have been the lead developer o=
f the libapreq2 subproject within the Apache HTTPd Server Parent Project. T=
he original idea of libapreq as a safe/performant HTML form and Cookie pars=
ing library came out of a collaboration between Lincoln Stein and Doug MacE=
achern in the late 90s.

y:Verdana,Geneva,sans-serif;font-size:13.3333px;background-color:rgb(246,24=
6,239)">It was my vision back then to transform the library into a generic,=
non-Perl related C library that would support language bindings from other=
programming languages, which is why I pushed for the project to be homes u=
nder the HTTPd umbrella instead of the Apache-Perl project.

color:rgb(130,130,130);font-family:Verdana,Geneva,sans-serif;font-size:13.3=
333px;background-color:rgb(246,246,239)">While this vision was wildly succe=
ssful, with language bindings available for several languages like Perl, TC=
L, R, etc, ever since about 2010 its proven tragic for the existing user co=
mmunity consisting of all of them, not just Perl.

130,130,130);font-family:Verdana,Geneva,sans-serif;font-size:13.3333px;back=
ground-color:rgb(246,246,239)">What happened? Philip Gollucci, a Perl/FreeB=
SD olleague of mine at the time, started agitating that we promote the proj=
ect to be released from inside the HTTPd server itself. What Philip didn=E2=
=80=99t know very well back then was how utterly vapid and territorial that=
team had become, which would have meant having to collaborate with them di=
rectly on user-facing decisions about the code base.

gb(130,130,130);font-family:Verdana,Geneva,sans-serif;font-size:13.3333px;b=
ackground-color:rgb(246,246,239)">In 2012, Philip got what he wanted and I =
stopped resisting, so he forked the existing project and copied the C libra=
ry components into HTTPd core.

amily:Verdana,Geneva,sans-serif;font-size:13.3333px;background-color:rgb(24=
6,246,239)">In 2016 I resigned from the Foundation en masse. You can guess =
the reasons.

va,sans-serif;font-size:13.3333px;background-color:rgb(246,246,239)">In 202=
0 or so, Google=E2=80=99s Security Team took advantage of an alpha release =
of httpd 2.5 by fuzzing its 8 year old copy of apreq. It found a few hotspo=
ts that needed repair.

rdana,Geneva,sans-serif;font-size:13.3333px;background-color:rgb(246,246,23=
9)">Instead of having the courtesy of reaching out to me, or anyone else in=
volved in development of apreq, a junior engineer on the HTTPd team went ab=
out the business of =E2=80=9Cbug fixing=E2=80=9D the vulnerabilities Google=
found. You can see a record of his trial and error work in every release s=
ince then.

,sans-serif;font-size:13.3333px;background-color:rgb(246,246,239)">But the =
coup de grace was the 2022 release of 2.17, wherein the rookie developer pu=
rposely introduced a fatal bug into the codebase, breaking a fifteen year o=
ld regression test.

na,Geneva,sans-serif;font-size:13.3333px;background-color:rgb(246,246,239)"=
>If you are wondering how something with a broken regression test winds up =
on CPAN, you=E2=80=99ll have to look into how RELENG is done in the server =
project.

ans-serif;font-size:13.3333px;background-color:rgb(246,246,239)">Long story=
short, they commented out the test and shipped it anyway, and called it a =
Security Release that fixed a vulnerability every prior release was suscept=
ible to.

ans-serif;font-size:13.3333px;background-color:rgb(246,246,239)">Why do I c=
are now? Because I=E2=80=99m the sucker users reach out to for answers as a=
known subject matter expert.

mily:Verdana,Geneva,sans-serif;font-size:13.3333px;background-color:rgb(246=
,246,239)">This sucks, but I=E2=80=99m sorry to tell you that my days weari=
ng the Superman cape at Apache ended 8 years ago.


lass=3D"gmail_signature_prefix">--
il_signature" data-smartmail=3D"gmail_signature">





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_______________________________________________
Hangout mailing list
Hangout-at-nylxs.com
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Could you clarify this - 2.17 has a critical bug and 2.18 is about to come
out which doesn't have a good enough patch so how would trunk be any better=
?

Also how is this passing make test or were the test cases modified to make
the bug pass ?

On Sun, Feb 18, 2024, 1:12=E2=80=AFPM Joe Schaefer wro=
te:

> Trunk is the safe bet.
>
> Joe Schaefer, Ph.D.
>
> Orion - The Enterprise Jamstack Wiki
>
>
> 954.253.3732
>
>
>
>
> On Sun, Feb 18, 2024 at 2:11=E2=80=AFPM Mithun Bhattacharya .com>
> wrote:
>
>> So is there a cleaner/saner version of libapreq2 or is the 2012 version
>> better ?
>>
>> On Sun, Feb 18, 2024, 12:58=E2=80=AFPM Joe Schaefer =
wrote:
>>
>>> For the past 25 years, I have been the lead developer of the libapreq2
>>> subproject within the Apache HTTPd Server Parent Project. The original =
idea
>>> of libapreq as a safe/performant HTML form and Cookie parsing library c=
ame
>>> out of a collaboration between Lincoln Stein and Doug MacEachern in the
>>> late 90s.
>>>
>>> It was my vision back then to transform the library into a generic,
>>> non-Perl related C library that would support language bindings from ot=
her
>>> programming languages, which is why I pushed for the project to be home=
s
>>> under the HTTPd umbrella instead of the Apache-Perl project.
>>>
>>> While this vision was wildly successful, with language bindings
>>> available for several languages like Perl, TCL, R, etc, ever since abou=
t
>>> 2010 its proven tragic for the existing user community consisting of al=
l of
>>> them, not just Perl.
>>>
>>> What happened? Philip Gollucci, a Perl/FreeBSD olleague of mine at the
>>> time, started agitating that we promote the project to be released from
>>> inside the HTTPd server itself. What Philip didn=E2=80=99t know very we=
ll back then
>>> was how utterly vapid and territorial that team had become, which would
>>> have meant having to collaborate with them directly on user-facing
>>> decisions about the code base.
>>>
>>> In 2012, Philip got what he wanted and I stopped resisting, so he forke=
d
>>> the existing project and copied the C library components into HTTPd cor=
e.
>>>
>>> In 2016 I resigned from the Foundation en masse. You can guess the
>>> reasons.
>>>
>>> In 2020 or so, Google=E2=80=99s Security Team took advantage of an alph=
a release
>>> of httpd 2.5 by fuzzing its 8 year old copy of apreq. It found a few
>>> hotspots that needed repair.
>>>
>>> Instead of having the courtesy of reaching out to me, or anyone else
>>> involved in development of apreq, a junior engineer on the HTTPd team w=
ent
>>> about the business of =E2=80=9Cbug fixing=E2=80=9D the vulnerabilities =
Google found. You
>>> can see a record of his trial and error work in every release since the=
n.
>>>
>>> But the coup de grace was the 2022 release of 2.17, wherein the rookie
>>> developer purposely introduced a fatal bug into the codebase, breaking =
a
>>> fifteen year old regression test.
>>>
>>> If you are wondering how something with a broken regression test winds
>>> up on CPAN, you=E2=80=99ll have to look into how RELENG is done in the =
server
>>> project.
>>>
>>> Long story short, they commented out the test and shipped it anyway, an=
d
>>> called it a Security Release that fixed a vulnerability every prior rel=
ease
>>> was susceptible to.
>>>
>>> Why do I care now? Because I=E2=80=99m the sucker users reach out to fo=
r answers
>>> as a known subject matter expert.
>>>
>>> This sucks, but I=E2=80=99m sorry to tell you that my days wearing the =
Superman
>>> cape at Apache ended 8 years ago.
>>>
>>> --
>>> Joe Schaefer, Ph.D.
>>>
>>> Orion - The Enterprise Jamstack Wiki
>>>
>>>
>>> 954.253.3732
>>>
>>>
>>>

--0000000000004d5df60611aeb2f2
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Could you clarify this - 2.17 has a critical bug and=
2.18 is about to come out which doesn't have a good enough patch so ho=
w would trunk be any better?

uto">Also how is this passing make test or were the test cases modified to =
make the bug pass ?

=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Sun, Feb 18, 2024, 1:12=E2=80=AFPM Joe Sch=
aefer <joe-at-sunstarsys.com> =
wrote:
x;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
Trunk is t=
he safe bet.



dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Sun, Feb 18, 2024 at 2:11=E2=80=AFPM M=
ithun Bhattacharya <" rel=3D"noreferrer">mithnb-at-gmail.com> wrote:
lass=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;=
padding-left:1ex">
So is there a cleaner/saner version of =
libapreq2 or is the 2012 version better ?

e">
On Sun, Feb 18, 2024, 12:58=E2=80=
=AFPM Joe Schaefer <nk" rel=3D"noreferrer">joe-at-sunstarsys.com> wrote:
te class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc so=
lid;padding-left:1ex">
);font-family:Verdana,Geneva,sans-serif;font-size:13.3333px;background-colo=
r:rgb(246,246,239)">For the past 25 years, I have been the lead developer o=
f the libapreq2 subproject within the Apache HTTPd Server Parent Project. T=
he original idea of libapreq as a safe/performant HTML form and Cookie pars=
ing library came out of a collaboration between Lincoln Stein and Doug MacE=
achern in the late 90s.

y:Verdana,Geneva,sans-serif;font-size:13.3333px;background-color:rgb(246,24=
6,239)">It was my vision back then to transform the library into a generic,=
non-Perl related C library that would support language bindings from other=
programming languages, which is why I pushed for the project to be homes u=
nder the HTTPd umbrella instead of the Apache-Perl project.

color:rgb(130,130,130);font-family:Verdana,Geneva,sans-serif;font-size:13.3=
333px;background-color:rgb(246,246,239)">While this vision was wildly succe=
ssful, with language bindings available for several languages like Perl, TC=
L, R, etc, ever since about 2010 its proven tragic for the existing user co=
mmunity consisting of all of them, not just Perl.

130,130,130);font-family:Verdana,Geneva,sans-serif;font-size:13.3333px;back=
ground-color:rgb(246,246,239)">What happened? Philip Gollucci, a Perl/FreeB=
SD olleague of mine at the time, started agitating that we promote the proj=
ect to be released from inside the HTTPd server itself. What Philip didn=E2=
=80=99t know very well back then was how utterly vapid and territorial that=
team had become, which would have meant having to collaborate with them di=
rectly on user-facing decisions about the code base.

gb(130,130,130);font-family:Verdana,Geneva,sans-serif;font-size:13.3333px;b=
ackground-color:rgb(246,246,239)">In 2012, Philip got what he wanted and I =
stopped resisting, so he forked the existing project and copied the C libra=
ry components into HTTPd core.

amily:Verdana,Geneva,sans-serif;font-size:13.3333px;background-color:rgb(24=
6,246,239)">In 2016 I resigned from the Foundation en masse. You can guess =
the reasons.

va,sans-serif;font-size:13.3333px;background-color:rgb(246,246,239)">In 202=
0 or so, Google=E2=80=99s Security Team took advantage of an alpha release =
of httpd 2.5 by fuzzing its 8 year old copy of apreq. It found a few hotspo=
ts that needed repair.

rdana,Geneva,sans-serif;font-size:13.3333px;background-color:rgb(246,246,23=
9)">Instead of having the courtesy of reaching out to me, or anyone else in=
volved in development of apreq, a junior engineer on the HTTPd team went ab=
out the business of =E2=80=9Cbug fixing=E2=80=9D the vulnerabilities Google=
found. You can see a record of his trial and error work in every release s=
ince then.

,sans-serif;font-size:13.3333px;background-color:rgb(246,246,239)">But the =
coup de grace was the 2022 release of 2.17, wherein the rookie developer pu=
rposely introduced a fatal bug into the codebase, breaking a fifteen year o=
ld regression test.

na,Geneva,sans-serif;font-size:13.3333px;background-color:rgb(246,246,239)"=
>If you are wondering how something with a broken regression test winds up =
on CPAN, you=E2=80=99ll have to look into how RELENG is done in the server =
project.

ans-serif;font-size:13.3333px;background-color:rgb(246,246,239)">Long story=
short, they commented out the test and shipped it anyway, and called it a =
Security Release that fixed a vulnerability every prior release was suscept=
ible to.

ans-serif;font-size:13.3333px;background-color:rgb(246,246,239)">Why do I c=
are now? Because I=E2=80=99m the sucker users reach out to for answers as a=
known subject matter expert.

mily:Verdana,Geneva,sans-serif;font-size:13.3333px;background-color:rgb(246=
,246,239)">This sucks, but I=E2=80=99m sorry to tell you that my days weari=
ng the Superman cape at Apache ended 8 years ago.


lass=3D"gmail_signature_prefix">--
il_signature" data-smartmail=3D"gmail_signature">





--0000000000004d5df60611aeb2f2--

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  1. 2024-02-01 From: "Free Software Foundation" <info-at-fsf.org> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Free Software Supporter -- Issue 190,
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  21. 2024-02-18 Mithun Bhattacharya <mithnb-at-gmail.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] HTTPd Devs Considered Harmful to
  22. 2024-02-18 Joe Schaefer <joe-at-sunstarsys.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] HTTPd Devs Considered Harmful to
  23. 2024-02-18 Joe Schaefer <joe-at-sunstarsys.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] HTTPd Devs Considered Harmful to
  24. 2024-02-18 Joe Schaefer <joe-at-sunstarsys.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] HTTPd Devs Considered Harmful to
  25. 2024-02-18 Joe Schaefer <joe-at-sunstarsys.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] HTTPd Devs Considered Harmful to
  26. 2024-02-18 Mithun Bhattacharya <mithnb-at-gmail.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] HTTPd Devs Considered Harmful to
  27. 2024-02-18 Mithun Bhattacharya <mithnb-at-gmail.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] HTTPd Devs Considered Harmful to
  28. 2024-02-15 Joe Schaefer <joe-at-sunstarsys.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] static code analysis for Perl5 code?
  29. 2024-02-14 From: "Randolf Richardson" <randolf-at-modperl.pl> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] Case-sensitive $r->param?
  30. 2024-02-18 Joe Schaefer <joe-at-sunstarsys.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] HTTPd Devs Considered Harmful to Apache2::Request
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  32. 2024-02-14 Joe Schaefer <joe-at-sunstarsys.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] Case-sensitive $r->param?
  33. 2024-02-14 Joe Schaefer <joe-at-sunstarsys.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] how to make :Sealed subs reentrant...
  34. 2024-02-14 Ed Sabol <edwardjsabol-at-gmail.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] how to make :Sealed subs reentrant...
  35. 2024-02-14 Joe Schaefer <joe-at-sunstarsys.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] how to make :Sealed subs reentrant...
  36. 2024-02-14 Joe Schaefer <joe-at-sunstarsys.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] how to make :Sealed subs reentrant...
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  57. 2024-02-14 Ed Sabol <edwardjsabol-at-gmail.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] how to make :Sealed subs reentrant...
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  63. 2024-02-15 Joseph He <joseph.he.2008-at-gmail.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] static code analysis for Perl5 code?
  64. 2024-02-14 Joe Schaefer <joe-at-sunstarsys.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] Case-sensitive $r->param?
  65. 2024-02-14 Joe Schaefer <joe-at-sunstarsys.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] how to make :Sealed subs reentrant...
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