MESSAGE
| DATE | 2003-07-22 |
| FROM | Ruben Safir Secretary NYLXS
|
| SUBJECT | Re: [hangout] School Technology
|
On Tue, Jul 22, 2003 at 10:04:49AM -0400, Sunny Dubey wrote:
>
> On Tuesday 22 July 2003 03:38 am, you wrote:
> > On 2003.07.21 22:57 Sunny Dubey wrote:
> > > On Monday 21 July 2003 08:40 pm, Ruben Safir Secretary NYLXS wrote:
> > > > Perl allows, as most people who took my classes know, a broad
> > > > background in general programming skills, and computer science that is
> > > > not possible with many other programming platforms. One of those
> > > > platforms is PHP.
> > >
> > > I think it is safe for me to say that PHP/MySQL is the most popular
> > > language/database combination on the internet.
> >
> > That is STRONGLY doubtful, as JSP is probibly more deployed on the
> > internet. I strongly doubt PHP/MySQL is even larger than mod_perl
> > deployments and would challenge you to show the data and the studies to
> > back up this statement.
>
> I said LANGUAGE/DATABASE combination, not a stand-alone language.
>
> Additionally read ... the december 2002 netcraft news letter:
> http://www.netcraft.com/Survey/index-200212.html
>
I shall look at this.
> And also, if you go to bookpool.com (GREAT techie book store) You'll notice
> there are far more books about PHP/MySQL than Perl/MySQL. Where are the
> books about Perl/MySQL ?!?!?!
Where is your line of reasoning here? Are you saying that the usability of
a programming platform is directly proportional to the number of useless books
exist on the topic? Perl has 2 major works for database connectivity, including
the existing work in the the Panther book. DBI happens to come with extenssive
documentation and the perl docs comes with tutorials and fundemental
documentation on the topic (that's in addition to the work on the MYSQL website)
None of this has to do with the education committees goals whatsoever.
>
> You are the single only person I have ever met with such a distaste for PHP.
Evidently you haven't met enough people then in the field. Because the problems
I describe are widespread and common.
> Even Yahoo (which hosts about 150k internal sites) has mass switched to PHP
> to enpower its website. Large sites like Freshmeat and SOURCEFORGE (the king
> of 'em all) run on PHP.
>
Really? And how about Merril Lynch. Who many transactions do they do in
comparision?
> Mandrake is 100% free software. So is slackware, and I believe gentoo as
> well. And maybe even newer and up coming linux distributions like ArchLinux
> and CustomLinux.
>
Use whatever you want. SuSe runs rings around Mandrake on more than several
fronts in production and on the desktop. This reaction to YAST is bizzare.
I don't even use it, since I use redcarpet.
> > STOP
> >
> > Have you READ the educational goals of NYLXS yet? First read it, and then
> > we can pick up on this conversation again with the same base reference.
>
> You mean section 3 of goals.html ?? Yes I have, it says nothing about what we
> are talking about.
>
It says nothing about what YOU are talking about, but it says EVERYTHING I'm
talking about.
>
> No, but I can claim this. For the two years that I have worked for my high
> school, I've noticed that our school's website is always run by a bunch of
> students. The site uses nothing but apache, mysql and PHP. Guess what?
> Their learning has not been stunted by PHP in any manner.
Absolutely wrong. Every one of those students where put at a disadvantage,
and had to relearn, or have STILL NEVER LEARNED core computer science concepts,
and programming technique. Everyone of them is working with a handicap which
they have to over come. I've spent long long threads argueing about the meaning
of a reference with PHP users, let allone inheritence, polymorphism, Application
interface design, runtime memory control, and more than occassionally even
simple concepts like proper scope.
See the PHP Groupware server? It's a typical example of a PHP clugg.
>
> > We do things for our own reasons and to
> > achive the goals we've set out to accomplish.
>
> In such an event I believe we need policy on how to "suggest different
> software". I say this because the last thing we need it to show up at
> whatever meeting, and start advocating perl and PHP.
I agree 100%. The important focus is on our goals. Come to the meeting
and you'll see that we have quite an advanced program already in the works.
>
> The above holds true for ANY LANGUAGE, ... even *gasp* *shock* ... PERL!
>
The in hands of a novice or an untrained prgrammer, this is true. But PHP
fails to provide the most basic tools necessary to enforce and encourage
all the above.
>
> Yes, but some of the concepts learned in PHP can easily be applied to other
> languages, however perl's style of programming is so unique, and therefore it
> simply is not universally applicable to or from other programming languages
>
Perl's programming style is not unique, and was built directly from the Unix
Liangage.
>
> "CPAN browsing nite" too see what I mean.
>
You organize it. And it will prove what? That Perl has an active community of
programmers who contibute to CPAN? So what. One of those CPAN libraries was
originally PHP.
>
> Ease of database interoperability, far easier to stick right into HTML code
> (as opposed to buggy emb_perl),
Actually neither EMBPERL or MASON are buggy. And I've run far larger sightes
with them then what you've described in your experience.
> built in facilities (such as doing mail()
> instead of doing open(), print(), close() in perl).
The mail call in PHP is a secirity whole. ANd Mime::Lite is both easier to
use and more complete.
And, BTW - Perl doesn't need parens
> And its just a whole lot
> easier to upgrade PHP than to muck around with perl and mod_perl.
really? Perl upgrades with a single commandline in the CPAN module.
If they're are to many questions for you, you should be aware that this
is a direct result of the broad usage of Perl in multiple environements
and for nearly every programming need.
Does PHP has a proper terminal modules yet? wait servers? Web Robots, IRC
libraries, low level IP libraries, MD5 encryption, perldoc, ODBC interfaces,
tied variable, double inheritence, etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc
Ruben
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