MESSAGE
| DATE | 2003-07-22 |
| FROM | Ruben Safir Secretary NYLXS
|
| SUBJECT | Re: [hangout] School Technology
|
I apologies if this seems harsh. It's not ment to be so.
Ruben
On Tue, Jul 22, 2003 at 03:52:37AM -0400, Ruben Safir wrote:
> BTW
>
> All 7 of the reasons are related directly to the choice of PHP as the
> technology to express the techincal foundation of the Beakman program.
>
> ...not that that was my point. My point was that they are trying to
> emulate a program which is a proven failure in most regards.
>
> Therefor, helping them repeat the same mistakes, which are were broad,
> should be a sellable position.
>
> Ruben
>
>
> On Tue, Jul 22, 2003 at 03:38:31AM -0400, Ruben Safir wrote:
> >
> >
> > On 2003.07.21 22:57 Sunny Dubey wrote:
> > >
> > > On Monday 21 July 2003 08:40 pm, Ruben Safir Secretary NYLXS wrote:
> > >
> > > > Perl allows, as most people who took my classes know, a broad background
> > > > in general programming skills, and computer science that is not possible
> > > > with many other programming platforms. One of those platforms is PHP.
> > >
> > > I think it is safe for me to say that PHP/MySQL is the most popular
> > > language/database combination on the internet.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > That is STRONGLY doubtful, as JSP is probibly more deployed on the internet.
> > I strongly doubt PHP/MySQL is even larger than mod_perl deployments and would
> > challenge you to show the data and the studies to back up this statement.
> >
> > Not that this matters.
> >
> >
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > > We have already developed a very solid ciriculum with Perl to teach
> > > > programming basics.
> > >
> > > I think there is a fundamental flaw with NYLXS.
> >
> >
> > What - JUST ONE FLAW!!!
> >
> > Whoa!
> >
> > We are now a zillion times more perfect than all other groups anywhere!
> >
> > > The fact that NYLXS members
> > > will advocate or use some technology, only because they are experienced of it
> > > even if they are aware of other perfectly sound solutions.
> >
> >
> > Now - I'm not sure what your talkign about but I oversaw a project management team which
> > did NOTHING but PHP, and produced over 90 K lines of PHP code under my oversight, DESPITE my
> > pleading that the project was too complex for PHP, and in the end, after I left, all the PHP guru's
> > indeed ran against the wall with project control and debugging.
> >
> > In a word, it became impossible to debug. In any event, I hope your not referring to me in terms
> > of a lack of experience in PHP, because I can, and have taught PHP, Perl, C and Shell scripting
> > when needed to professional.
> >
> >
> > The inadequacies of PHP to reach our goals is not an issue of dogma, and I will not be drawn into
> > a PHP versus Perl Flame war, you can do that on your own time.
> >
> > They are completely different technologies. They are so different, that the whole argument is a useless
> > discussion.
> >
> > > I've noticed this
> > > particularly with how NYLXS often uses SuSE, when there are other 100% free
> > > distributions.
> >
> > Now who is Dogmatics. Your 100% free version of GNU/Linux in Debian is functionally far less pollished
> > than SuSe. Hell - they distributed GNOME without a logoff button.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > >
> > > If we are to advance free software, we must advocate whatever we have.
> >
> > STOP
> >
> > Have you READ the educational goals of NYLXS yet? First read it, and then we can pick up on this
> > conversation again with the same base reference.
> >
> > > Simply bashing a particular technology (PHP) is not the way to go. Especially
> > > when someone else who we are to service has requested it.
> >
> > Show me where I bashed it? The hysteria around PHP is nearly laughable. I for one, couldn't care less about
> > PHP one way or the other. But unless you can claim 4 years of educational experience, plus the professional
> > oversite of a large enterprise us PHP and Perl, I need more than hysteria to back up claims. BTW, NYLXS is not
> > in the Quartermaster of all Free Software requests in the Metro NY Region. We do things for our own reasons and
> > to achive the goals we've set out to accomplish. If you can explain to me how we can achive the specific goals
> > that we've laid out for Education, please refer to the specific goals and corlate them to the PHP features which
> > accomplish those goals. That would be a useful constuction in the discussion, and it's the kind of professionalism
> > which will be needed if your going to learn how to lead others in a positive direction in any serious field.
> >
> >
> > > Of the 7 reasons, 6 had nothing to do with PHP at all. The first six could be
> > > applied to just about any course teaching any material. (non computer
> > > courses as well.)
> >
> > That's not true. The basic lack of built in programming tools for the enforcement and documentation
> > of standardized programing interfaces made the Beekman project a giant eagles nest of clugged coding which
> > was impossible to impliment within other institutions outside of providing web services to other institutions.
> >
> > Furthermore, the use of PHP as the introudction langugue for children will not contribute to an integrated kind of
> > cross-pollonation which is needed to break the stranglehold of propreitary systems in which our current educational
> > system is gripped by.
> >
> > >
> > > Additionally I think PHP is a great language because it isn't complex as C/C++
> > > but at the same time it allows for an understand of basic programming
> > > structure which is similar to C/C++.
> >
> > No it doesn't. It is NOTHING like C or C++. There is no means, for example, to make a pointer, or
> > a reference to a union or a stuct to be objectified, or to even be passed between name spaces or scopes.
> >
> > And in fact, in many regards, PHP is more complex than C, especially ANSI C. It has an endless stream of
> > built in functions with long names, limited database connectivitiy, and non-standardized function interfaces.
> >
> > In fact, PHP makes the C string library look nearly rational. This is not how you want to teach people
> > to program.
> >
> > In fact, C and C++ are entirely differnet from each other. And who said that teaching C and C++ is an
> > end goal in of itself. In fact, the principles of C and C++ are very difficult to teach with PHP because
> > of it's lack of real references, it's lack of a true runtime enviornment, it's non-existant namespace
> > implication, and so on.
> >
> >
> >
> > >
> > > Such comments really do tarnish the NYLXS name, and show a general sense of
> > > ignorance on the topic at hand.
> >
> > Perl IS faster to code up than PHP.
> >
> > As for your comments on Perl, I'm not in the least bit interested in such a useless flamewar.
> >
> > Your entitled to your opinion. But you have not given a single shread of evidence to substantiate any of the points.
> > Please substantiate your opinion with actually data, genuine example, or provable hypothesis.
> >
> >
> > In fact, PHP has some very useful features, but you haven't mentioned ANY of them.
> >
> > Ruben
> >
> > --
> > __________________________
> > Brooklyn Linux Solutions
> > __________________________
> > DRM is THEFT - We are the STAKEHOLDERS http://fairuse.nylxs.com
> >
> > http://www.mrbrklyn.com - Consulting
> > http://www.inns.net <-- Happy Clients
> > http://www.nylxs.com - Leadership Development in Free Software
> > http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/resources - Unpublished Archive or stories and articles from around the net
> > http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/downtown.html - See the New Downtown Brooklyn....
> >
> > 1-718-382-0585
> > ____________________________
> > NYLXS: New Yorker Free Software Users Scene
> > Fair Use -
> > because it's either fair use or useless....
> > NYLXS is a trademark of NYLXS, Inc
>
> --
> __________________________
> Brooklyn Linux Solutions
> __________________________
> DRM is THEFT - We are the STAKEHOLDERS http://fairuse.nylxs.com
>
> http://www.mrbrklyn.com - Consulting
> http://www.inns.net <-- Happy Clients
> http://www.nylxs.com - Leadership Development in Free Software
> http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/resources - Unpublished Archive or stories and articles from around the net
> http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/downtown.html - See the New Downtown Brooklyn....
>
> 1-718-382-0585
--
__________________________
Brooklyn Linux Solutions
__________________________
DRM is THEFT - We are the STAKEHOLDERS http://fairuse.nylxs.com
http://www.mrbrklyn.com - Consulting
http://www.inns.net <-- Happy Clients
http://www.nylxs.com - Leadership Development in Free Software
http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/resources - Unpublished Archive or stories and articles from around the net
http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/downtown.html - See the New Downtown Brooklyn....
1-718-382-0585
____________________________
NYLXS: New Yorker Free Software Users Scene
Fair Use -
because it's either fair use or useless....
NYLXS is a trademark of NYLXS, Inc
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