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DATE 2005-06-01

HANGOUT

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Key: Value:

Key: Value:

MESSAGE
DATE 2005-06-19
FROM Ruben Safir
SUBJECT Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Linux Desktop no More
Mactel: A Disaster for Linux?



Tuesday, 14 June 2005
Page 1 of 2

By: Sal Cangeloso

Since the announcement of the
upcoming x86 Apple computers there
has been nonstop conjecture about
how this change will effect every
facet of the computer industry.
Rumors about on what systems the x86
OS X, if it will be hardware locked,
and the Macintosh Windows version
have flooded the internet. One of
the most interesting topics of
conversation has been how this move
will effect Linux.

Though a hardware move like this may
not seem to have any implications
towards software issues, it is
actually quite pertinent. From the
news that is available now you can
piece together that x86 Macs will be
able to run Windows, though Apple
will be limiting their OS X to only
Apple systems. This is a smart move
for Apple; though they can do little
to stop Microsoft from adapting
Windows to x86 Macs they recognize
the fact that OS X has a very
dedicated following and Apple's
computers will only be a better
product now that they will have the
ability to dual boot with Windows.
By keeping OS X off non-Apple
computers their systems will just be
that much more desirable as OS X is
widely recognized to be a fine
operating system.

Many people have been outspoken
about how Linux will be harmed by
this situation. The predominant
thinking is that Macs were never
really a target for open source
developers because anything written
for them could only be applied to
PowerPC-based computers, a very
small segment of the market. This
thought pattern goes on to believe
that once the change to x86 is made
developers will be more apt to
target Apple computers and
Linux will suffer from a lack of
developer support. This brain-drain
will ostensibly be caused by the
increased profitability and lack of
unflexible open source licensing
requirements of non-Linux platforms.

When reflecting on this situation
the first thing that has to be taken
into account is the limited size and
application of the current Apple
platform. The simply fact is that
the amount of people using Apple's
is quite small compared to those on
Windows. What this means is that the
effect of the move to x86 will only
matter so much- most of the
squabbling has been because of the
idealogical associations that people
have with Apple, such as it being
the underdog and so forth. Over the
long term is seems, though, that
marketshare controlled by Apple will
grow with the move to x86 because
now the usability of Apple's will
increase greatly.


The belief that Apple's move to x86
will harm Linux is flawed. Yes, it
is true that Linux depends on
developers and the open source
community more so than other
operating systems but there is no
reason to believe that these users
will shift their focus. The Mactel
will be a very attractive platform,
to consumers and developers alike,
but the advantages of Linux that are
apparent today will still be there
when these systems are released.
Linux will be able to operate on
these new computers just as it can
on current generation Macs so it
will still be quite relevant and
hardly forgotten, despite the
ability to run OS X and Windows on
the same system.

The fact of the matter is that the
mainstays of Linux are corporate,
government, and server environments.
These areas will be completely
unaffected by the x86 Macs. The
thought that dedicated developers
will turn tail and hop onboard the
x86 Mac bandwagon is unlikely since
the comparative strengths of the
Linux operating system will not be
threatened, neither by the increased
attractiveness of OS X or by the
expansion of Windows to Macs. Linux
will still be free to install,
lightweight, and powerful, this will
only the amplified by 2007 when this
new platform is said to arrive.

The segment in which Linux could be
harmed is desktop computing. Here
distrobutions like Linspire and
Xandros have created Linux
environments that are, on the
surface, much more like Windows or
OS X than ever before. There is some
reason to believe that these will be
seen as superfluous once there is an
option to run OS X or Windows on the
a x86 Mac. Though, looking into this
situation a bit deeper, it can be
recognized that the average Linux
user is more computer literate than
users of other opterating systems so
this would imply that they are
making the decision to use Linux
based on intelligent and
well-informed reasoning. Because of
this it is not likely that they
would all of a sudden see OS X as
the best alternative to Windows and
move to that.

If anything, the increased
competition will be good for
everyone. Windows, which has been
growing comparitively worse every
year will have to respond to the
head-to-head comparision with OS X,
while Apple's operating system will
either have to make efforts to
increase compatibility and driver
support or forced to be welcoming to
a dual boot with Windows. Linux will
no longer be the sole x86
alternative to Windows, it will have
to compete with OS X for this spot,
though this will never be an
apples-to-apples comparision because
the the limits to where OS X can be
installed.

So the question remains, is Apple's
move to x86 a disaster for Linux?
No, of course not. Linux remains a
diverse, highly scalable, and
powerful operating system, the only
one which has been able to hop the
current gap between PowerPC and x86.
It would be unrealistic to deny the
attractiveness of an Apple computer
which can run either OS X or Windows
but with the rapid pace of current
Linux development the thought that
it would be overly harmed by the
arrivals of the Mactels is a bit
tough to swallow. Linux is quite
reliant on the open source community
but this is a dedicated group of
individuals that have a great deal
vested in Linux for them to step
away simply because of a change in
processor type is unlikely.
Furthermore the involvement of large
companies, like Red Hat and Novell,
in Linux advancement means that even
with a few less developers things
will still be improving along with
the pace of the industry.





  1. 2005-06-01 From: "Inker, Evan" <EInker-at-gam.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Desktop Linux: Ready for Prime Time?
  2. 2005-06-01 From: "Michael L. Richardson" <mlr52-at-michaellrichardson.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Fw: [FCNYC] OFFER: 25 computer Monitors 10013
  3. 2005-06-02 From: "Michael L. Richardson" <mlr52-at-mycouponmagic.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Fwd: FW: Devine E-Mail
  4. 2005-06-02 From: "Michael L. Richardson" <mlr52-at-michaellrichardson.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Fw: Invitation: Sybase Financial System Integrator Breakfast
  5. 2005-06-02 dspira-at-att.net (Dave_att) Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Meeting minutes for grant proposal committee6_1_05
  6. 2005-06-02 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Meeting minutes for grant proposal
  7. 2005-06-02 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] New Spin on GNU/Linux
  8. 2005-06-02 dspira-at-att.net (Dave_att) Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Meeting minutes for grant proposal committee6_1_05
  9. 2005-06-03 dspira-at-att.net (Dave_att) RE: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Meeting minutes for grant proposal committe e6_1_05
  10. 2005-06-03 From: "Inker, Evan" <EInker-at-gam.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Test
  11. 2005-06-03 From: "Steve Milo" <slavik914-at-rennlist.net> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Star Wars this Sunday
  12. 2005-06-03 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Star Wars this Sunday
  13. 2005-06-03 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Novell HHS contract
  14. 2005-06-04 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] [Fwd: Electronics Recylcing Bill ...]
  15. 2005-06-05 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] [Fwd: JobCircle Weekly Summary of New Jobs]
  16. 2005-06-06 From: "Inker, Evan" <EInker-at-gam.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] OS News
  17. 2005-06-06 From: "Inker, Evan" <EInker-at-gam.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Microsoft admits MSN site hacked in Korea
  18. 2005-06-06 From: "Inker, Evan" <EInker-at-gam.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Device Drivers Filled With Flaws, Threaten Security
  19. 2005-06-06 dspira-at-att.net (Dave_att) Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Device Drivers Filled With Flaws, Threaten Security
  20. 2005-06-07 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] [Fwd: [suse-security-announce] SUSE Security Summary Report
  21. 2005-06-07 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Device Drivers Filled With Flaws, Threaten
  22. 2005-06-07 Billy <billy-at-dadadada.net> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Device Drivers Filled With Flaws, Threaten
  23. 2005-06-07 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] [Fwd: ISOC-NY meeting announcement] - CITY GOVERNMENT MEETING
  24. 2005-06-07 Mark Simko <msimko-at-optonline.net> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Feedback
  25. 2005-06-07 Billy <billy-at-dadadada.net> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Device Drivers Filled With Flaws, Threaten
  26. 2005-06-07 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Device Drivers Filled With Flaws, Threaten
  27. 2005-06-07 Billy <billy-at-dadadada.net> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Device Drivers Filled With Flaws, Threaten
  28. 2005-06-07 From: "Inker, Evan" <EInker-at-gam.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] FW: LinuxWorld SF05: Keeping you ahead of technology. Register to day
  29. 2005-06-07 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Device Drivers Filled With Flaws, Threaten
  30. 2005-06-07 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Device Drivers Filled With Flaws, Threaten
  31. 2005-06-08 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] ssh help
  32. 2005-06-08 Billy <billy-at-dadadada.net> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] ssh help
  33. 2005-06-08 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] ssh help
  34. 2005-06-09 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Inservices?
  35. 2005-06-09 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Board Meeting Announcement
  36. 2005-06-09 From: "Inker, Evan" <EInker-at-gam.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] B'KLYN GETS 24-HOUR CHANNEL
  37. 2005-06-09 From: "Steve Milo" <slavik914-at-rennlist.net> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] B'KLYN GETS 24-HOUR CHANNEL
  38. 2005-06-09 Contrarian <adrba-at-nyct.net> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Inservices?
  39. 2005-06-09 From: "Steve Milo" <slavik914-at-rennlist.net> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Inservices?
  40. 2005-06-09 Contrarian <adrba-at-nyct.net> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Inservices?
  41. 2005-06-09 From: "Inker, Evan" <EInker-at-gam.com> RE: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Inservices?
  42. 2005-06-09 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> RE: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Inservices?
  43. 2005-06-10 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Gnenome Reserch
  44. 2005-06-11 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Web Server Status
  45. 2005-06-11 mike hjorleifsson <mikeh-at-dtev.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Web Server Status
  46. 2005-06-11 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Web Server Status
  47. 2005-06-12 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Web Server Status
  48. 2005-06-12 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Jobs
  49. 2005-06-13 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Fair Use Commentary: Supreme Court
  50. 2005-06-13 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] [Fwd: RE: [Hardhats-members] == VistaWeb Missing Apps ==]
  51. 2005-06-13 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] They do lie under oath
  52. 2005-06-13 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] RE: [Hardhats-members] == VistaWeb Missing Apps ==
  53. 2005-06-15 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Board Meeting Wed at 7:30
  54. 2005-06-15 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Man, what do you make of this?
  55. 2005-06-15 From: "Inker, Evan" <EInker-at-gam.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Wind River Executes 'A 180-Degree Turn'
  56. 2005-06-15 From: "Inker, Evan" <EInker-at-gam.com> RE: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Man, what do you make of this?
  57. 2005-06-15 From: "Steve Milo" <slavik914-at-rennlist.net> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Man, what do you make of this?
  58. 2005-06-15 swd <sderrick-at-optonline.net> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Man, what do you make of this?
  59. 2005-06-15 swd <sderrick-at-optonline.net> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Man, what do you make of this?
  60. 2005-06-15 dspira-at-att.net (Dave_att) Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Man, what do you make of this?
  61. 2005-06-15 dspira-at-att.net (Dave_att) Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] grant proposal meeting minutes.
  62. 2005-06-15 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Board Meeting Tonight - 7:30 to about 11:00PM
  63. 2005-06-15 dspira-at-att.net (Dave_att) Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Board Meeting Tonight - 7:30 to about 11:00PM
  64. 2005-06-16 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Last Nights Board Meeting
  65. 2005-06-17 Adam Kosmin <akosmin-at-nyc.rr.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] testing
  66. 2005-06-17 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] testing
  67. 2005-06-19 Adam Kosmin <akosmin-at-nyc.rr.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] meeting
  68. 2005-06-19 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Microsoft - We mean Security
  69. 2005-06-19 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Linux Desktop no More
  70. 2005-06-20 From: "Steve Milo" <slavik914-at-rennlist.net> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Linux Desktop no More
  71. 2005-06-20 From: "Steve Milo" <slavik914-at-rennlist.net> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] AT&T syntax in as.
  72. 2005-06-20 Billy <billy-at-dadadada.net> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] AT&T syntax in as.
  73. 2005-06-21 From: "MICHAEL L. RICHARDSON" <mlr52-at-michaellrichardson.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Inservice
  74. 2005-06-21 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Shred those Credit Cards
  75. 2005-06-22 From: "Steve Milo" <slavik914-at-rennlist.net> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] For anyone interested.
  76. 2005-06-22 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Board Meeting Minutes
  77. 2005-06-22 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Food for Thought
  78. 2005-06-23 From: "Steve Milo" <slavik914-at-rennlist.net> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Food for Thought
  79. 2005-06-23 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] MINUTES
  80. 2005-06-23 From: "Steve Milo" <slavik914-at-rennlist.net> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] WTC article in Forbes.
  81. 2005-06-23 dspira-at-att.net (Dave_att) Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] WTC article in Forbes.
  82. 2005-06-23 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] WTC article in Forbes.
  83. 2005-06-24 Contrarian <adrba-at-nyct.net> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Board Meeting Minutes
  84. 2005-06-24 Contrarian <adrba-at-nyct.net> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Inservice scheduled
  85. 2005-06-24 Contrarian <adrba-at-nyct.net> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] RE: Inservice scheduled
  86. 2005-06-24 From: "Inker, Evan" <EInker-at-gam.com> RE: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Board Meeting Minutes
  87. 2005-06-24 From: "MICHAEL L. RICHARDSON" <mlr52-at-michaellrichardson.com> RE: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Board Meeting Minutes
  88. 2005-06-24 Contrarian <adrba-at-nyct.net> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] "Free Software" definitions
  89. 2005-06-25 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Freedom-IT meeting Tomorrow
  90. 2005-06-26 dspira-at-att.net (Dave_att) Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] meeting minutes grant proposal comm.
  91. 2005-06-27 Contrarian <adrba-at-nyct.net> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] FOIL request status
  92. 2005-06-27 Contrarian <adrba-at-nyct.net> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Freedom-IT meeting Tomorrow
  93. 2005-06-27 Contrarian <adrba-at-nyct.net> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Free Software vs. Open Source
  94. 2005-06-27 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Re: [nylug-talk] Supreme Court votes against Grokster
  95. 2005-06-27 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Free Software vs. Open Source
  96. 2005-06-27 Contrarian <adrba-at-nyct.net> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Open source: Licenses Free software: software?
  97. 2005-06-27 Contrarian <adrba-at-nyct.net> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Free Software vs. Open Source
  98. 2005-06-27 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Copyright Policy
  99. 2005-06-28 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Re: Gorkster Analysis
  100. 2005-06-28 From: "Inker, Evan" <EInker-at-gam.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Update: AMD files broad antitrust suit against Intel
  101. 2005-06-29 dspira-at-att.net (Dave_att) Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Free Software and Open Source
  102. 2005-06-29 Contrarian <adrba-at-nyct.net> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Inservice
  103. 2005-06-29 einker <eminker-at-gmail.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Inservice
  104. 2005-06-29 From: "Inker, Evan" <EInker-at-gam.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Power Plays: The Phenomenon of Vendor Lock-in
  105. 2005-06-29 From: "MICHAEL L. RICHARDSON" <mlr52-at-michaellrichardson.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Inservice
  106. 2005-06-29 From: "J.E. Cripps" <cycmn-at-nyct.net> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Inservice
  107. 2005-06-29 From: "Michael L. Richardson" <mlr52-at-michaellrichardson.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] inservice
  108. 2005-06-29 Contrarian <adrba-at-nyct.net> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Inservice - last call
  109. 2005-06-29 Adam Kosmin <akosmin-at-nyc.rr.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Inservice - last call
  110. 2005-06-30 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Inservice - last call
  111. 2005-06-30 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Inservice - last call
  112. 2005-06-30 Contrarian <adrba-at-nyct.net> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Inservice - last call
  113. 2005-06-30 Contrarian <adrba-at-nyct.net> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Inservice - last call
  114. 2005-06-30 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Inservice - last call
  115. 2005-06-30 From: "J.E. Cripps" <cycmn-at-nyct.net> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Inservice - last call
  116. 2005-06-30 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Inservice - last call
  117. 2005-06-30 Contrarian <adrba-at-nyct.net> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Inservice - last call
  118. 2005-06-30 Contrarian <adrba-at-nyct.net> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Inservice - last call
  119. 2005-06-30 From: "Inker, Evan" <EInker-at-gam.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Freedom IT Meeting Sun July 03, 2005 1:00 PM
  120. 2005-06-30 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Freedom IT Meeting Sun July 03, 2005 1:00
  121. 2005-06-30 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Inservice - last call
  122. 2005-06-30 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Free Software and Open Source
  123. 2005-06-30 From: "Steve Milo" <slavik914-at-rennlist.net> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[NYLXS_-_HANGOUT]_Freedom_IT_Meeting___Sun_J?=
  124. 2005-06-30 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Freedom IT Meeting Sun July 03, 2005
  125. 2005-06-30 From: "MICHAEL L. RICHARDSON" <mlr52-at-michaellrichardson.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] new inservices
  126. 2005-06-30 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] new inservices
  127. 2005-06-30 Contrarian <adrba-at-nyct.net> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] new inservices
  128. 2005-06-30 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] new inservices
  129. 2005-06-30 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Remembrance of Things Future: The Mystery of Time

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