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DATE 2008-03-01

HANGOUT

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Key: Value:

Key: Value:

MESSAGE
DATE 2008-03-16
FROM Ruben Safir
SUBJECT Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Re: [nylug-talk] Benefits/drawbacks of building Linux as a package [was: Looking for recommendations on Linux Distro]
On Sat, Mar 15, 2008 at 08:48:34PM -0400, Ron Guerin wrote:
> Ruben Safir wrote:
>
> > Package managers by and large, actually all of them, suck in the first place
> > Your checklist is wishful thinking. And I'm not talking out of my hat. I'm
> > talking from a SUSE 5.3 distro running on a P2 right now which has been continually patched
> > by hand for a LOT of years now.
>
> If by suck, you mean works extremely well and makes millions of people
> happy, then yeah, most of them suck. Our package managers suck.

No SUCK I mean SUCK ... like creating a d-at-mn hell of inconstitancies
by different packagers even WITHIN single distributions that cause
a nightmare of incongruent requirments that lead you to chase packages
into the night to make something work to only find out that 5 other things
are now broken or the latest package that was used has to be UNINSTALLED to
satisfy the stupidy of the new package you want to install.

This is package hell and it results, first and formost, from packaging
systems that can't even FIND what the heck is on your hard drive let alone
understand what they NEED in their databases.

And I'll call you a bald face lier, Ron, right here in public if you
even pretend to not have had this happen to you as we have personally
had conversations to this point face to face.

Then we won't even discuss what happens in package management hell if
god forbid you want to actually load a program with needed features that
exists prior to an official distro's package system is found.

And then we can skip over the whole problem that actually system developers
and programmers need to overcome with packages, who compile their stuff on the
fly.



> I wish
> everything sucked as much as my package manager does.
>
> > The single biggest mistake someone can make aside from a dread aweful
> > rm command in jest is to install the Kernel from anything but an authenticed
> > source from kernel.org.
>
> This advice runs counter to that of kernel maintainers, especially one
> fellow named Linus Torvalds,

RMS is KIND when he calls Linus just and engineer.

He's made some stupid things over the last few years, not the least of which surround
DRM and excuse me if I don't kneel to the human G_d of the Linux kernel as an all powerful
and infallable being.

> who said quite some years ago that the
> kernel.org kernel would henceforth not be a finished and ready to use
> kernel, IHHO. The quote was something along the lines of "that's the
> job of the packagers"
>
> Millions of people make that "single biggest mistake" every year, and
> they're damn lucky that they do, because there'd be a lot of needless
> pain and suffering if they did not.
>

And vice versa. Millions of people have gone through needless pain and suffering
because they are OVERLY dependent on package managers, and this is especially
true of Kernels.

But if you want to pretend that 'make' and autoconf is your enemy, so be it.
It's no sweat off my back. Meanwhile, if your switching out kernels with a package
not backed with a multimillion dollar indemty and honest to goodness 24/7 tech support
hotline in a production environment, then you deserve what you get when your canned.

Ruben


  1. 2008-03-04 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] EEE PC Revolution rolls on...
  2. 2008-03-04 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] IBM elinux machines in europe
  3. 2008-03-05 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] MacBeth
  4. 2008-03-05 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] EEE PC Revolution rolls on...
  5. 2008-03-09 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] WTC Progress?
  6. 2008-03-09 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] GNU High School
  7. 2008-03-10 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] [nyc-at-workatjelly.com: Jelly Turns Two! Jelly in Manhattan this Friday, 3/14]
  8. 2008-03-11 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] NYLXS Spring Agenda - Meeting Result 3-4-08: Comments Requested
  9. 2008-03-11 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] NYLXS Spring Agenda - Meeting Result 3-4-08: Comments Requested
  10. 2008-03-11 Kevin Mark <kevin.mark-at-verizon.net> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] NYLXS Spring Agenda - Meeting Result 3-4-08:
  11. 2008-03-12 swd <sderrick-at-optonline.net> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] NYLXS Spring Agenda - Meeting Result 3-4-08:
  12. 2008-03-12 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] NYLXS Spring Agenda - Meeting Result 3-4-08: Comments Requested
  13. 2008-03-13 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] NYLXS Spring Agenda - Meeting Result 3-4-08: Comments Requested
  14. 2008-03-13 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] gNU in the store
  15. 2008-03-14 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] [legcalendar-at-council.nyc.ny.us: Council Calendar - Week of 03.17.08]
  16. 2008-03-14 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] RIAA Ghestapo
  17. 2008-03-14 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] RIAA Ghestopo II
  18. 2008-03-15 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Tech Development in the US
  19. 2008-03-15 From: "Joshua Zeidner" <jjzeidner-at-gmail.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Tech Development in the US
  20. 2008-03-15 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Tech Development in the US
  21. 2008-03-15 From: "Joshua Zeidner" <jjzeidner-at-gmail.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Tech Development in the US
  22. 2008-03-15 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Time Zonea
  23. 2008-03-15 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Time Zonea
  24. 2008-03-15 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] [nbs-at-sonic.net: [vox] [fwd] more publicity for the March 1 ACCRC - Untangle installfest]
  25. 2008-03-15 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Re: [nylug-talk] Benefits/drawbacks of building Linux as a package [was: Looking for recommendations on Linux Distro]
  26. 2008-03-16 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Re: [nylug-talk] Benefits/drawbacks of building Linux as a package [was: Looking for recommendations on Linux Distro]
  27. 2008-03-16 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Re: [nylug-talk] Benefits/drawbacks of building Linux as a package [was: Looking for recommendations on Linux Distro]
  28. 2008-03-16 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Re: [nylug-talk] Benefits/drawbacks of building Linux as a package [was: Looking for recommendations on Linux Distro]
  29. 2008-03-16 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Re: [nylug-talk] Benefits/drawbacks of building Linux as a package [was: Looking for recommendations on Linux Distro]
  30. 2008-03-16 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Re: [nylug-talk] Benefits/drawbacks of building Linux as a package [was: Looking for recommendations on Linux Distro]
  31. 2008-03-17 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] ID theft
  32. 2008-03-18 Paul Robert Marino <prmarino1-at-gmail.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Re: [nylug-talk] Benefits/drawbacks of building Linux as a package [was: Looking for recommendations on Linux Distro]
  33. 2008-03-19 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] [nyc-at-workatjelly.com: jelly in brooklyn next friday 3-28-2008]
  34. 2008-03-19 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] [frederick-at-nyu.edu: [free-culture] Invitation to ILI Colloquium on Net Censorship, Tue, March 25, 6:30pm]
  35. 2008-03-20 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] [raj-at-brainlink.com: Brainlink is hiring. Can I post that on NYLUG?]
  36. 2008-03-20 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Frielich Um Purim
  37. 2008-03-20 ronny abraham <ronny.coder-at-gmail.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Frielich Um Purim
  38. 2008-03-20 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Frielich Um Purim
  39. 2008-03-20 ronny abraham <ronny.coder-at-gmail.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Frielich Um Purim
  40. 2008-03-20 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Frielich Um Purim
  41. 2008-03-20 Amy Coleman <acoleman-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Frielich Um Purim
  42. 2008-03-20 Amy Coleman <acoleman-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Frielich Um Purim
  43. 2008-03-20 From: "Michael L. Richardson" <mlr52-at-michaellrichardson.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Frielich Um Purim
  44. 2008-03-21 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Re: [nylug-talk] Benefits/drawbacks of building Linux as a package [was: Looking for recommendations on Linux Distro]
  45. 2008-03-21 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Frielich Um Purim
  46. 2008-03-23 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Re: [nylug-talk] [OT]Facebook app
  47. 2008-03-25 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] [ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com: Re: Pharmacist Position on McDonald Avenue]
  48. 2008-03-26 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Re: April 3rd
  49. 2008-03-27 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Re: Linux ready for the home desktop?
  50. 2008-03-27 Mark Simko <msimko-at-optonline.net> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Re: Linux ready for the home desktop?
  51. 2008-03-27 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] [pshapiro-at-his.com: [Dclug] Asus releases SDK for Eee PC]
  52. 2008-03-27 ronny abraham <ronny.coder-at-gmail.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] linux and mp3s
  53. 2008-03-27 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Congestion Pricing Tax
  54. 2008-03-27 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Congestion Pricing Tax
  55. 2008-03-28 From: "Michael L. Richardson" <mlr52-at-michaellrichardson.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Re: Linux ready for the home desktop?
  56. 2008-03-28 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] [ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com: Re: April 3rd]
  57. 2008-03-28 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] mixer and videorecorder
  58. 2008-03-28 Mark Simko <msimko-at-optonline.net> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Re: Linux ready for the home desktop?
  59. 2008-03-27 ronny abraham <ronny.coder-at-gmail.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Re: Linux ready for the home desktop?
  60. 2008-03-28 Mark Simko <msimko-at-optonline.net> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Re: Linux ready for the home desktop?
  61. 2008-03-28 From: "Ronny Abraham" <ronny.coder-at-gmail.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Re: Linux ready for the home desktop?
  62. 2008-03-28 From: "Paul Robert Marino" <prmarino1-at-gmail.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Re: Linux ready for the home desktop?
  63. 2008-03-28 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Re: Interview Request: Flyp Media on Linux and Open Source
  64. 2008-03-28 From: "Joshua Zeidner" <jjzeidner-at-gmail.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Re: Interview Request: Flyp Media on Linux and Open Source
  65. 2008-03-28 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Re: Interview Request: Flyp Media on Linux and Open Source
  66. 2008-03-28 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] [legcalendar-at-council.nyc.ny.us: Council Calendar - Week of 03.31.08]
  67. 2008-03-28 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Re: Interview Request: Flyp Media on Linux and Open Source
  68. 2008-03-29 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Re: Interview Request: Flyp Media on Linux and Open Source
  69. 2008-03-29 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Re: Linux ready for the home desktop?
  70. 2008-03-29 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Perl MYSQL GNU Job
  71. 2008-03-29 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Jobs: Perl OOrientation
  72. 2008-03-29 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Jobs - Perl and Database Development
  73. 2008-03-29 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Jobs: Perl and IMAGEMAGIC
  74. 2008-03-29 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Job: Perl Website work
  75. 2008-03-29 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Perl Part Time Work
  76. 2008-03-29 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Yahoo Job - RHEL and Perl
  77. 2008-03-29 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Re: April 3rd
  78. 2008-03-29 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] GNU Market Share
  79. 2008-03-29 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Redhat doing fine
  80. 2008-03-29 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Non-Free aint Free
  81. 2008-03-29 From: "Michael L. Richardson" <mlr52-at-michaellrichardson.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Re: April 3rd
  82. 2008-03-30 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Re: April 3rd
  83. 2008-03-30 From: "Michael L. Richardson" <mlr52-at-michaellrichardson.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Re: April 3rd
  84. 2008-03-30 From: "Michael L. Richardson" <mlr52-at-michaellrichardson.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Re: April 3rd
  85. 2008-03-30 ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] freedom-it photos
  86. 2008-03-30 ronny abraham <ronny.coder-at-gmail.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] GNU Market Share
  87. 2008-03-30 ronny abraham <ronny.coder-at-gmail.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] fstab and macbook
  88. 2008-03-30 From: "armando fonseca" <afonsec2-at-gmail.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] fstab and macbook
  89. 2008-03-30 ronny abraham <ronny.coder-at-gmail.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] fstab and macbook
  90. 2008-03-30 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Re: April 3rd
  91. 2008-03-30 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Re: April 3rd
  92. 2008-03-30 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Books that mention NYLXS
  93. 2008-03-30 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] rewriting history
  94. 2008-03-31 Kevin Mark <kevin.mark-at-verizon.net> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] fstab and macbook
  95. 2008-03-31 From: "Michael L. Richardson" <mlr52-at-michaellrichardson.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Re: April 3rd
  96. 2008-03-31 From: "Michael L. Richardson" <mlr52-at-michaellrichardson.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] rewriting history
  97. 2008-03-28 ronny abraham <ronny.coder-at-gmail.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Re: Linux ready for the home desktop?
  98. 2008-03-31 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Re: April 3rd
  99. 2008-03-31 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Re: April 3rd
  100. 2008-03-31 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] [events-at-flaggmgmt.com: Show and Conference tomorrow. 2008 Linux/Open Source, April 1, Roosevelt Hotel.]
  101. 2008-03-31 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Re: April 3rd
  102. 2008-03-31 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] fstab and macbook
  103. 2008-03-31 From: "Paul Robert Marino" <prmarino1-at-gmail.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] fstab and macbook
  104. 2008-03-31 From: "Michael L. Richardson" <mlr52-at-michaellrichardson.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Re: April 3rd

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