|FROM ||Ruben Safir
|SUBJECT ||Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Maybe its because lindows just sucked
|From lest-hangout-at-mrbrklyn.com Mon Jul 7 21:54:31 2008
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Date: Mon, 7 Jul 2008 21:54:25 -0400
From: Ruben Safir
Subject: Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Maybe its because lindows just sucked
References: <20080705043828.GA25972-at-www2.mrbrklyn.com> <7405d1440807061929i5a670631g7d5835ae364b4511-at-mail.gmail.com> <1215435184.6664.21.camel-at-jersey> <7405d1440807071659t61414e13u59b9d7e00f67301-at-mail.gmail.com>
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On Mon, Jul 07, 2008 at 07:59:53PM -0400, Ronny Abraham wrote:
> On Mon, Jul 7, 2008 at 8:53 AM, Mark Simko wrote:
> > On Sun, 2008-07-06 at 22:29 -0400, Ronny Abraham wrote:
> >> What they want is the guys who runs
> >> Microsoft Office and the occasional custom business app. I could have
> >> told them "nice try, but you aren't getting that market". Why? Not
> >> because they don't do a good job, but because you are simply not going
> >> to convince someone to give up something that "Just Works" and take a
> >> chance on a technology that "does a good enough job". Why screw
> >> around with something that might work when you have something that
> >> does (sort of)?
> > They will go for something that is more reliable, easier to use, and
> > less expensive with less maintenance headaches. Give them a system that
> > is less prone to performance degradation and malware infection and they
> > have every reason to move. The only reasons that Windows prevailed is
> > because of superior marketing and unfair competition. What Linux lacks
> > now is marketing. There just aren't marketing dollars there for that. I
> > don't know if word of mouth and a grassroots groundswell will change
> > things, but the problems of Vista performance, Vista difficulty, and
> > Microsoft Office incompatibility have many moving over to OSX, and
> > probably linux too.
> I remember when Java was being touted as the next big thing. They
> also bitched about the lack of marketing. Yet not many people
> realized that the Correl corporation bet on Java based on the
> marketing hype and got burned big time. I'm not interested in people
> telling me that there's a "lack of marketing".
That market is the lynch pin to getting free software product out is
axiomatic, and between the monopolistic effort of MS and their marketing
Corel had ZERO change. I really don't want to argue if marketing is
the key issue. If you don't think that marketing and anti-competitive
activities is the core reason for the dominance of the MS OS, I just
chuck you up to being a fruit loop, no offense intended, and I'll waste time
in a more productive fashion.
> Democrats do it,
> Republicans do it, and at this point it sounds like a bullshit excuse.
> Yes, there is that, to an extent, but that only goes so far. You
> want people to adopt Linux? Fill a need. Make it worth their while to
> build their applications around it. Give them business. Apache is
> also free and has very little/no marketing yet it's used in the
> majority of web servers. This "lack of marketing" talk is something I
> have zero patience for.
> Fill a need.
And that gets you NOTHING. Did you not read about the case history of Borland?
OS2 Warp, GNU/Linux, Netscape, or for that matter the inventor of the TV, Amstrong,
Vitagraph, and the Betamax?
> As for maintenance problems, that's what offices pay tech drones for.
> People can handle a crash or two.
No we don't.
> It's regular system failure that
> makes them run screaming for another operating system.
Evidently not since that continues to plague all Microsoft OS's. Neither does viruses,
spyware, worms, spam exploits, security breaches and more.
> Windows prevailed because IBM dropped the ball on OS/2 because they
> didn't think the personal computer was a market that had any real
That's only partly true. And it continues to be more true today then ever.
They insisted on making the OS compatable to Windows. That was the big mistake. Instead
of buying and devloping their own brand loyalty and market, they basically just helped MS
market Windows and become looked at as an also ran. BIG MISTAKE.
> The whole Steve Jobs vs. Bill Gates thing is interesting
> drama, but if IBM had kicked in, both these guys would be presently
> out of a job. Frankly, I think you should be happy about that. No
> one would pay attention to Linux if OS/2 was the prevalent system.
> And if you think Bill Gates is worse than the evil, cold hearted
> bastards at IBM than you have to do some serious reading. They just
> threaten everyone who dares to point out their atrocities. Yeah, I
> used the word "atrocities" and I meant it.
> >> Maybe SUSE does that job. I wouldn't know. But tell me, if you start
> >> up SUSE will you have an environment that looks exactly like Windows
> >> XP and works exactly like XP as far interface and preferences go?
> > No need for exact. Just need a lot closer than what Vista is.
> XP is being officially supported through 2012, so vista isn't your
> competitor. XP, and windows 98 (yes, win98) are your competitors.
> >> Because that is a major reason why someone won't switch over. Your
> >> average office drone has no interest whatsoever in mucking about with
> >> a system. He's terrified of it and with good reason - he doesn't own
> >> the computer it's running on.
> > All most people want is that, not just office drones. What they are
> > afraid of is that they will have to give things up. There are a few
> > video formats I can't watch. What I've come to appreciate is that they
> > are just time wasting emails anyway. I am more productive on a Linux
> > system without all the M$ maintenance hassles.
> >> I think that Linux has a lot of potential on peripheral devices.
> > A lot more potential on the desktop. And especially with thin clients.
> >> I
> >> also think that one day, maybe, Linux might even capture a significant
> >> portion of the desktop app.
> > Maybe soon if this crud economy continues for long.
> I say exactly the opposite. When the dollar is tight people are less
> willing to take a risk. And don't tell me about how free as in beer
> compensates for risk. That sounds really great when you're hanging
> out with friends, it sounds a lot worse when you're responsible for
> several hundred employees. No one wants to take a risk. Why is this
> so hard to understand?
> >> But that depends on whether technologies
> >> like Flash can translate to the desktop and further show serious power
> >> in the form of apps (something Java was supposed to do, but failed at
> >> miserably). Show me that, and I'll show you a potential Linux desktop
> >> market.
> > So Linux on the desktop success depends upon the success of Flash on
> > Linux? Please!!! That's just eye candy.
> Yes, you hit it right on the head. It's eye candy. It's also eye
> candy that works. Why do you think so many people use compiz?
> Because of it's superior desktop managing capabilities or because it
> just looks damn cool the way the window wobbles around? Do you think
> Steve Jobs pays top dollar for his programmers to come up with a
> classy look because a classy look improves spreadsheet performance?
> He does it because if your view is ugly your performance will be ugly
> and he knows this.
> When someone asks me about Linux, do you think I put them to sleep
> with a 50 minute long dissertation on how convenient the system is for
> me as a programmer? Or do you think I actually show them what this
> racehorse can do? Which do you think they care about? Maybe you like
> using mutt, and that's great, really. But do you think someone wants
> to see Mutt or Evolution?
I have over 20K messages in my mail box. I vote for mutt.
> And what do you think is the first thing
> they say when I show them evolution btw? It's "but outlook already
> does this". In other words, their needs are already being met. So I
> show them how I can have a dozen apps running in virtual desktops.
> That draws them up short.
Right! Show what MS can't do and exploit that.
> When Java first came out (I'm a bit bitter about Java if you haven't
> noticed), people were into it because they thought you could make all
> these great looking desktop apps that could potentially run in a
> browser or on just about anything. No one told us that Java was great
> because they were going to run database calls through it. At a slower
> rate than everything else. No one promoted it because of EJB 1.0,
> 2.0, or 3.0 (all of which suck). No, it was because we saw this cool
> little animated dude, and thought, wow! Flash does exactly what Java
> was supposed to do. Google "Adobe air" and you'll get the idea.
> Incidentally, no one hyped me on this, I only figured it out because
> my brother asked me to tear apart his flash based web site, that I
> found out just how powerful this stuff is.
- I need to get back to the C++ workshops and you guys aren't helping ;)
http://www.mrbrklyn.com - Interesting Stuff
http://www.nylxs.com - Leadership Development in Free Software
So many immigrant groups have swept through our town that Brooklyn, like Atlantis, reaches mythological proportions in the mind of the world - RI Safir 1998
http://fairuse.nylxs.com DRM is THEFT - We are the STAKEHOLDERS - RI Safir 2002
"Yeah - I write Free Software...so SUE ME"
"The tremendous problem we face is that we are becoming sharecroppers to our own cultural heritage -- we need the ability to participate in our own society."
"> I'm an engineer. I choose the best tool for the job, politics be damned.<
You must be a stupid engineer then, because politcs and technology have been attached at the hip since the 1st dynasty in Ancient Egypt. I guess you missed that one."
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