|FROM ||Ruben Safir
|SUBJECT ||Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Maybe its because lindows just sucked
|From lest-hangout-at-mrbrklyn.com Tue Jul 8 19:40:07 2008
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Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2008 19:40:01 -0400
From: Ruben Safir
Subject: Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Maybe its because lindows just sucked
References: <20080705043828.GA25972-at-www2.mrbrklyn.com> <7405d1440807061929i5a670631g7d5835ae364b4511-at-mail.gmail.com> <1215435184.6664.21.camel-at-jersey> <7405d1440807071659t61414e13u59b9d7e00f67301-at-mail.gmail.com> <20080708015425.GA14783-at-www2.mrbrklyn.com> <7405d1440807072029g35424a3aybba0b8e5f46f8a1f-at-mail.gmail.com> <20080708055048.GA23295-at-www2.mrbrklyn.com> <7405d1440807081218o5eafcf0cl153f6ae2c3828934-at-mail.gmail.com>
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On Tue, Jul 08, 2008 at 03:18:04PM -0400, Ronny Abraham wrote:
> On Tue, Jul 8, 2008 at 1:50 AM, Ruben Safir wrote:
> > Corel screw up their target market by using a lot of non-free software in their crap and then failing to market it. The product was fine. It was down right impressive.
> Ruben, I have not used the Corel office suite. I don't need to.
> Because I know how fast Java apps at the time worked. But I like to
> think of myself as fair. So I'll tell you what, if you manage to get
> the Corel Beta of the time running at good clip on an x386 machine
> then I'll concede the entire argument. Not a 486 or a 586, but a 386.
> Because that is what most of the office workers were typing on.
No they weren't they were on Pentium II's and the PII's were out as I recall.
Not only did no one have a 386, I've actually never seen a 386.
> > Yeah, those points are death to any product. You do not give customers what
> > they want, you drive a new business by exceding their expectations and
> > teaching them what they want.
> > This is marketing and PR 1.0
> > You create markets with advertising, and public realtions.
> So according to this reasoning, products don't fail because they don't
> deliver, they only fail because there wasn't enough PR.
> Did it ever occur to you that the PR people are the ones who want you
> to believe that because they like having jobs?
> > Did you ever see the film Tucker?
> No, but it's probably a better example than Rockefeller.
> > Its a wiki, go to a business library and look it up.
> Not happening. I simply don't care enough to go to a library and read
> a book on a subject in order to understand a point you are making. If
> you want to make a point to me, you have to do more of the work than
> say "go to a library".
> > Bullshit. IBM invented the market. They just didn't care to compete after they
> > had the Department of Justice kick them around but good.
> Fair enough. Like I said, I don't have hard facts in that case, so
> you can take it for what it's worth.
> > What? Sometimes you are a little weird.
> Rubin, if you gave me one or two examples, then sure, I'd put out the
> time to understand it. Especially if I thought that it would improve
> my general knowledge. But if you hand me five examples to one
> argument, I am simply not going to hunt down every one of them. I am
> not a historian, I am not a lawyer. I am totally uninterested in
> going to a library to read a book to better comprehend some obscure
> point being made in a conversation that probably isn't going to change
> anyone's opinion. My point was, give me one or two counterexamples
> that illustrate what you are trying to say. This isn't a "two men
> enter, one man leaves" argument. This is about how we can best
> utilize our time. Given that the entire GNU/Linux enterprise is
> successful because people like you and me devote our time, I think
> that's actually an important question.
> Now the reason I am actually arguing this with you is very simple. I
> think and feel, very very strongly that "marketing is everything" is
> total and complete bullshit. I have heard Democrats make that
> argument, I have heard Republicans make that argument. I have heard
> the guys from Sun make that argument too. And the truth is, marketing
> definitely has impact. But it is not even close to everything.
> Distribution is a factor
> Cost of risk vs. reward is a factor.
> Ease of use is a factor
> Convenience in getting it up and running is a factor
> Need is a factor.
> Stabilitity is a factor.
> Learning curve is a factor
> Now Linux is very good, at the present time, in filling some of these
> requirements. It is very stable, and thanks to the fast internet
> connections it's distribution is fantastic, but regarding all the
> other points, it is simply NOT THAT GREAT.
> > No, when my system craps out patients DIE DIE DIE.
> > Gee, you think that would be incentive. Or to what 500 million dollars of
> > arbitrage go past you on the Chicago exchange?
> > Some businesses actually do something.
> Businesses are run by people. People want to cover their ass. People
> stick with a brand because it's worked "well enough" as far as they
> are concerned ... I can't believe I'm actually arguing over something
> this obvious.
> this is ridiculous.
> You know what Ruben? If you really believe everything you are saying,
> then why don't you stop bitching about it, and take courses in
> marketing and PR, and then do something about it? You are one of the
> smartest guys I know, you can probably be successful at anything you
> like, so just do it. You're effectively telling me, that he who
> controls PR controls the world, so go for it. If it's as important
> and certain as you make it out to be, there shouldn't be any risk
> whatsoever in moving to ad agency right?
> After all, if marketing is everything, then anyone who is good at it
> will make the company a bundle of cash right? Given that you are a
> very smart and capable man, you should be able to master it fairly
> quickly. Therefore, you should be able, with a minimum of effort and
> almost no risk whatsoever be able to switch jobs and make a bundle.
> So do it.
> But of course, marketing isn't everything. PR is not everything.
> Being able to talk your way is not always going to cut it. If you
> tried that you'd be risking quite a lot which means you'll never do
> it. Because, you are, in fact, a smart guy and not an idiot.
> > The only way for any business to succeed is to INOVATE and create a NEW MARKET,
> > especially when competing against a legal monolopy which would also break
> > any law, take any action, pursue in court any competitor, in order to crush them
> > and maintain their monopoly.
> If what you said was true, then Ford wouldn't be about to go bankrupt,
> and the Japanese wouldn't be taking over the auto industry.
> >> I believe this so much, that the second I get a chance I'm
> >> going to start donating time to WINE.
> > I'd have to be more insulting then I care to be to answer that. What can be
> > said? This has been tried for a decade and failed.
> I'm a sucker for a lost cause.
> > You haven't seen them?
> No, where can I find them? I'm very interested.
http://www.mrbrklyn.com - Interesting Stuff
http://www.nylxs.com - Leadership Development in Free Software
So many immigrant groups have swept through our town that Brooklyn, like Atlantis, reaches mythological proportions in the mind of the world - RI Safir 1998
http://fairuse.nylxs.com DRM is THEFT - We are the STAKEHOLDERS - RI Safir 2002
"Yeah - I write Free Software...so SUE ME"
"The tremendous problem we face is that we are becoming sharecroppers to our own cultural heritage -- we need the ability to participate in our own society."
"> I'm an engineer. I choose the best tool for the job, politics be damned.<
You must be a stupid engineer then, because politcs and technology have been attached at the hip since the 1st dynasty in Ancient Egypt. I guess you missed that one."
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