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DATE 2013-05-01

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MESSAGE
DATE 2013-05-17
FROM Ruben Safir
SUBJECT Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Oh come on, a little fraud isn't so bad...
Using Technology to abuse you better

http://www.wtsp.com/news/local/article/316418/8/10-News-Investigators-discover-short-yellow-lights

Florida quietly shortened yellow light standards & lengths, resulting in
more red light camera tickets for you
Find 10 News Investigator Noah Pransky on Facebook or follow his updates
on Twitter. Send your story tips to noah-at-wtsp.com.

TAMPA BAY, Fla. -- A subtle, but significant tweak to Florida's rules
regarding traffic signals has allowed local cities and counties to
shorten yellow light intervals, resulting in millions of dollars in
additional red light camera fines.

The 10 News Investigators discovered the Florida Department of
Transportation (FDOT) quietly changed the state's policy on yellow
intervals in 2011, reducing the minimum below federal recommendations.
The rule change was followed by engineers, both from FDOT and local
municipalities, collaborating to shorten the length of yellow lights at
key intersections, specifically those with red light cameras (RLCs).

5/14 UPDATE: Legislators acting quickly after 10 News report
5/15 UPDATE: Hillsborough Co. to research intervals; Tampa won't

While yellow light times were reduced by mere fractions of a second,
research indicates a half-second reduction in the interval can double
the number of RLC citations -- and the revenue they create. The 10 News
investigation stemmed from a December discovery of a dangerously short
yellow light in Hernando County. After the story aired, the county
promised to re-time all of its intersections, and the 10 News
Investigators promised to dig into yellow light timing all across Tampa Bay.

Red light cameras generated more than $100 million in revenue last year
in approximately 70 Florida communities, with 52.5 percent of the
revenue going to the state. The rest is divided by cities, counties, and
the camera companies. In 2013, the cameras are on pace to generate $120
million.

"Red light cameras are a for-profit business between cities and camera
companies and the state," said James Walker, executive director of the
nonprofit National Motorists Association. "The (FDOT rule-change) was
done, I believe, deliberately in order that more tickets would be given
with yellows set deliberately too short."

The National Motorists Association identifies itself as a grassroots
group that's been advocating for drivers since 1982. It fought the
national 55 mph speed limit and is now campaigning against red light
camera technology, contending the technology primarily targets safe
drivers who are victims of short yellow lights or safely roll through
right turns.

Proponents of the technology hang their hats on a reduction of serious
accidents at RLC intersections. They also point out that every
electronically generated violation is reviewed by a local police officer
or sheriff's deputy before a citation is validated and sent to a driver.
But questions about the fairness and constitutionality of RLCs linger,
with questionable motivations of the state's yellow light reductions
likely to add fuel to the fire.

FDOT CHANGES THE RULES

Yellow light times are calculated by a complex formula that takes into
account variables such as the size of an intersection, the
incline/decline of the roadway, driver reaction time, and deceleration
rate. But ultimately, the proper intervals come down to a driver's
approach speed.

When the Florida legislature approved 2010's Mark Wandell Act,
regulating red light cameras across the state, FDOT had a long-standing
rule that mandated yellow light calculations factor in either the posted
speed limit or 85th percentile of drivers' actual speed -- whichever was
greater. The point of the law was to calculate safe stopping times for
the majority of drivers on any given roadway.

But in 2011, FDOT struck the "whichever is greater" language from its
Traffic Engineering Manual (TEM), reducing minimum yellow light lengths
and allowing communities to re-time their signals at RLC intersections.

The 10 News Investigators found a number of communities shortened their
already-safe intervals to the new minimums. In some cases, FDOT mandated
longer yellow lights, but seemingly only at intersections that hadn't
been in compliance for years. Around Greater Tampa Bay, the yellow
interval reductions typically took place at RLC intersections and
corridors filled with RLC cameras.

FDOT's change in language may have been subtle, but the effects were
quite significant. The removal of three little words meant the reduction
of yellow light intervals of up to a second, meaning drastically more
citations for drivers. A 10 News analysis indicates the rule change is
likely costing Florida drivers millions of dollars a year.

"I think it's immoral to do that," Walker said. "You're basically
punishing safe drivers with deliberately improper engineering. That's
not moral to me."

But FDOT claims it had no financial motive to shorten yellow lights; the
agency doesn't receive any direct payments from RLC fines. The state's
portion of each $158 citation is split between its General Revenue Fund
($70), the Department of Health Administrative Trust Fund ($10), and
Spinal Cord Injury Trust Fund ($3).

FDOT Traffic Operations engineer Mark Wilson said the agency was merely
cleaning up language in its TEM to match federal guidelines. But 10 News
found Florida's rules were already in compliance with federal
guidelines, and there are no federal suggestions discouraging the use of
"whichever is greater." FDOT is also ignoring numerous other federal
guidelines (see below) that encourage longer yellow intervals.

The 10 News Investigators showed Wilson the emails from FDOT engineers
in Tampa Bay, obtained through public records requests, instructing
Pasco County officials in February 2012 to reduce the yellow light
intervals on U.S. 19 from the already-short 4.5 seconds to the bare
minimum 4.3 seconds. Wilson said he was not aware of the instructions
and the engineer, who has since retired, misunderstood the purpose of
the rule change.

"Those are (only) minimums. So some of the engineers said, 'Well, it's
got to be that exact number.' That's not true. It has to be at least
that number," Wilson said.

Wilson added that original language of the Mark Wandell Act required
communities to perform engineering studies before installing RLCs, in
order to comply with federal recommendations and determine drivers'
actual approach speeds. But the requirement never made it into the final
bill, allowing communities to install RLCs without any consideration of
drivers' actual speed or the time it would take them to stop safely.

FLORIDA IGNORING NATIONAL STANDARDS, OPTING FOR SHORTER YELLOWS

Numerous U.S. Dept. of Transportation (USDOT) documents provide guidance
to municipalities on how to install and operate RLC intersections. But
FDOT and Florida communities are by-and-large ignoring those
recommendations when it comes to yellow light intervals.

A USDOT/Federal Highway Administration (FHA) report said cities should
not use speed limit in the yellow interval equation because it results
"in more red light violations and higher crash rates." And if drivers'
average speeds cannot be calculated, it's recommended engineers use the
"speed limit plus 10 mph" variable to producing more conservative, and
safer, yellow intervals.

Another report stresses the importance of using 85th percentile speed to
calculate yellow intervals, while slide 28 on this report indicates when
yellow light times are lengthened, severe crashes drop.

USDOT also recommends an extra half-second of yellow time at
intersections with lots of trucks or elderly drivers to allow them to
react safely. And despite the fact that Greater Tampa Bay is home to
five of the nation's 12 oldest counties (by median age), it's also home
to some of the shortest yellow lights.

"I'm not a law-breaker," said Pasco County retiree Shirley Nagle, who
got a red light violation on U.S. 19 after more than five decades
without a traffic citation.

Nagle entered the RLC intersection about half a second too late in
February, and was issued a $158 ticket, which soon became a $262 fine
after she didn't pay it immediately. She told 10 News that she spent 32
years working in the New Jersey courts system and would never break the
law. She was just proceeding through the intersection because she
thought it was the safest option for her.

"It's terrible," she said of Port Richey's RLCs and short yellow lights.
"I think they're cheating the people!"

Wilson told 10 News that FDOT would likely approve any city's request to
add a half-second to yellow light times to allow older drivers more time
to react and safely stop, but none have.

Wilson also says FDOT is in the process of increasing the "Perception
Reaction Time" variable in its statewide yellow light formulas from 1.0
to 1.3 seconds. That would add the 1/3 of a second to yellow light
intervals statewide, to better accommodate Florida drivers.

SHORTER YELLOWS: WHO'S DOING IT?

FDOT's revised TEM provides bare minimum yellow light intervals for RLC
intersections, based on speed limit. While the formula can fluctuate if
the approach grade isn't flat, no consideration is mandated for drivers'
actual approach speed:

Approach Speed
Yellow Interval

25 mph


3.0 sec

30 mph


3.2 sec

35 mph


3.6 sec

40 mph


4.0 sec

45 mph


4.3 sec

50 mph


4.7 sec

55 mph


5.0 sec

60 mph


5.4 sec

65 mph


5.8 sec

But 10 News found numerous communities using , or skirting, the minimums:

Port Richey, New Port Richey, and FDOT collaborated to reduce yellow
light times along U.S. 19 from 4.5 seconds to the bare minimum, 4.3 seconds.
An FDOT analyst instructed New Port Richey to reduce its yellow
light interval for the Main St. RLC (at U.S. 19) from 4.0 seconds to the
bare minimum, 3.0 seconds.
Hillsborough County shortened the yellow interval on Bell Shoals
Road (at Bloomingdale) in Valrico from 4.0 seconds to the bare minimum,
3.6 seconds.
Tampa has yellow lights below the state's 4.0-second minimum for
45mph zones at Hillsborough/Nebraska and Adamo/50th. Those RLC
intersections turn red after just 3.9 seconds; city engineers claim the
complex yellow light formula allows them to go below the TEM minimums.
St. Petersburg had yellow intervals that were shorter than FDOT
minimums, but alert resident Matt Florell pointed them out and the city
fixed them. Florell said thousands of citations were issued
inappropriately, while a city engineer said four intersections had
slight "malfunctions," where the yellow lights were only off by 0.1
seconds. Either way, ticketed drivers were not notified of the issues
and no refunds were offered.
Oldsmar had a similar issue, where its intersection at Tampa Rd. and
SR-580 (State St.) was improperly timed. The yellow light was just 3.0
seconds instead of 4.3 seconds. When the problem was addressed last
fall, citations plummeted by 90 percent. But no notices, or refunds,
went out to ticketed drivers.

FDOT's new rules didn't shorten every RLC intersection's yellow lights;
many cities and counties had lights that were so far out of compliance
the new minimums actually increased the intervals. Tampa and
Hillsborough County both increased some intersections in recent years,
but most in their jurisdictions remain at the bare minimum.

St. Petersburg city councilman Charlie Gerdes has also been pushing his
city to lengthen its yellow intervals, about half of which are at the
state minimum, but Gerdes has had trouble getting the entire council to
follow him on the issue.

RED LIGHT CAMERA SAFETY

Although RLC critics dispute it, 10 News found a bevy of data that
suggests the technology changes drivers' behavior and reduces serious
crash rates. And everywhere new RLC programs start generating revenue
for cities, the elected leaders behind the program tout its safety benefits.

But there are few tangible safety benefits to short yellow lights. In
fact, they appear to have the opposite effects; according to the USDOT
and FHA, short yellow lights raise crash rates.

"A one second increase in yellow time results in 40 percent decrease in
severe red light related crashes," the report said.

Jim Walker said shortening a driver's window for reacting to a yellow
light creates more difficult split-second decisions, which can lead to
more rear end collisions too. And he contends most serious accidents
aren't coming from the "innocent driver" who gets caught by a short
yellow. They're caused by blatant red light runners who will run a light
regardless of yellow light length.

But Charles Territo, spokesperson for American Traffic Solutions (ATS),
one of the country's largest red light camera operators, said there is
no need to extend yellow light lengths since "innocent red light
runners" don't exist.

"I think that's probably an oxymoron," Territo said. "There is (no) such
thing as safely running a red light."

Territo said RLCs have made intersections safer for non-motorists too.
Florida cities routinely top national lists for "worst cities" for
pedestrian and bicycle safety.

Territo contends adding length to yellow lights may have a short-term
benefit, but points to research that suggests, over time, some drivers
will adjust to the longer yellows and continue to run red lights.
However, there is just as much data to contradict Territo's theory.

"Rear-end crashes are not caused by red light cameras," Territo added.
"They're caused by distracted driving."

RLC REFORM STRUGGLES IN TALLAHASSEE

After RLC reforms were shot down in legislative committees for a third
straight year, State Sen. Jeff Brandes, R-St. Petersburg, snuck some
late reforms onto a highway bill in the closing days of the 2013
session. The bill, HB 7125, awaits Governor Rick Scott's signature.

Among the changes: right turn violations will be harder to issue;
violators may request a hearing within 60 days (previously 30 days, and
no hearing was permitted); and more legal protections were put in place
for drivers looking to challenge the citation.

READ: Pinellas Clerk Ken Burke's letter applauding RLC reforms

READ: RLC critic opposes Brandes bill

But reforms have been few and far between for RLC laws, largely because
of the industry's massive lobbying presence. State disclosures indicate
ATS has spent more than a million dollars lobbying in Florida alone,
while its also donated more than half a million dollars to Florida
politicians directly.

"They're almost everywhere," Brandes said of ATS lobbyists in Tallahassee.

This year, a bill by Sen. Joseph Abruzzo, D-Wellington, would have
prevented municipalities from using posted speed limit in the yellow
interval formula, but the legislation was gutted by Sen. Jeff Clemens,
D-Lake Worth. Clemens is a long-time camera proponent who has accepted
$1,000 in direct donations from ATS in recent years.

"I agree, (longer yellow intervals) may create a safer traffic situation
in the short-term, when people are not used to having longer yellows,"
Clemens said. "(But) as soon as they get used to the fact that those
yellows last longer, more people are going to be trying to run the red
lights."

Clemens said he just wants the state to follow national standards. But
he also admitted RLCs have allowed states to create new revenue streams
without raising taxes.

Territo and ATS said they have no role in issuing the tickets in
Florida; a local officer or deputy must review and confirm each
individual violation. But RLCs are a $120 million/year business in
Florida, and shorter yellow lights threaten the revenue stream.

In Georgia, a 2009 law that mandated longer yellow lights practically
eradicated RLC programs across the state. Many municipalities saw
violations drop by 80-90%. Similar drops were seen in Oldsmar, Florida
and Milton, Florida.

WHAT SHOULD I DO IF I'M CAUGHT RUNNING A RED?

10 News cannot provide legal advice, but you may have grounds to appeal
an automated citation for a variety of reasons. If you believe you were
ticketed because of a short yellow light, you may want to:

Go online to review your ticket and record the video with a cell
phone or other recording device.
Going frame-by-frame, detemine if the yellow light failed to last as
long as mandated by the TEM chart posted above. Also note how long the
light was red before you entered the intersection.
You may be able to appeal if you can prove the yellow light was too
short and you would have normally made it through a normal yellow light.
Even if the length of the yellow light meets the minimum, you may
still be able to appeal if the yellow intervals are too short for
drivers' actual average approach speed. The national suggestions posted
above indicate safe stopping speed should be considered when planning
RLC placements and yellow light times.

But ultimately, the choice to appeal is yours and as the law stands, the
mere act of contesting the violation could cause your fine to surge from
$158 to $264 -- even if you did nothing wrong.

Find 10 News Investigator Noah Pransky on Facebook or follow his updates
on Twitter. Send your story tips to noah-at-wtsp.com.


  1. 2013-05-01 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Re: Definitions of running (was RE: RE: Complaining)
  2. 2013-05-01 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] web tracking
  3. 2013-05-01 From: "Redpill" <red.pill-at-verizon.net> RE: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Oh come on, a little fraud isn't so bad...
  4. 2013-05-01 From: "Redpill" <red.pill-at-verizon.net> RE: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Graphics and Photographs
  5. 2013-05-01 From: "Redpill" <red.pill-at-verizon.net> RE: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Graphics and Photographs
  6. 2013-05-02 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Graphics and Photographs
  7. 2013-05-02 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Graphics and Photographs
  8. 2013-05-02 Robert Menes <viewtiful.icchan-at-gmail.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Graphics and Photographs
  9. 2013-05-03 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Graphics and Photographs
  10. 2013-05-03 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Oh come on, a little fraud isn't so bad...
  11. 2013-05-03 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] midnight stipers
  12. 2013-05-03 From: "Redpill" <red.pill-at-verizon.net> RE: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Graphics and Photographs
  13. 2013-05-03 From: "Redpill" <red.pill-at-verizon.net> RE: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Oh come on, a little fraud isn't so bad...
  14. 2013-05-03 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Graphics and Photographs
  15. 2013-05-03 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Oh come on, a little fraud isn't so bad...
  16. 2013-05-03 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Graphics and Photographs
  17. 2013-05-03 einker <eminker-at-gmail.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Graphics and Photographs
  18. 2013-05-03 From: "Redpill" <red.pill-at-verizon.net> RE: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Graphics and Photographs
  19. 2013-05-03 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Graphics and Photographs
  20. 2013-05-03 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Graphics and Photographs
  21. 2013-05-03 From: "Redpill" <red.pill-at-verizon.net> RE: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Graphics and Photographs
  22. 2013-05-03 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Graphics and Photographs
  23. 2013-05-03 From: "Redpill" <red.pill-at-verizon.net> RE: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Graphics and Photographs
  24. 2013-05-03 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Graphics and Photographs
  25. 2013-05-03 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Graphics and Photographs
  26. 2013-05-03 From: "Redpill" <red.pill-at-verizon.net> RE: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Graphics and Photographs
  27. 2013-05-05 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] ready - aim --- fire
  28. 2013-05-05 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Stengths
  29. 2013-05-05 From: "Michael L. Richardson" <mlr52-at-michaellrichardson.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Stengths
  30. 2013-05-05 From: "Michael L. Richardson" <mlr52-at-michaellrichardson.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Stengths
  31. 2013-05-05 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Stengths
  32. 2013-05-05 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Stengths
  33. 2013-05-06 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Oh come on, a little fraud isn't so bad...
  34. 2013-05-07 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Fwd: Re: [Israel.pm] Meeting Announcement
  35. 2013-05-09 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] blackberry email
  36. 2013-05-09 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Oh come on, a little fraud isn't so bad...
  37. 2013-05-09 From: "Redpill" <red.pill-at-verizon.net> RE: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Oh come on, a little fraud isn't so bad...
  38. 2013-05-10 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] linux devices
  39. 2013-05-10 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Oh come on, a little fraud isn't so bad...
  40. 2013-05-10 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Oh come on, a little fraud isn't so bad...
  41. 2013-05-10 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] 12 years too late and not so impressive
  42. 2013-05-10 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] (fwd) Die Vorz?ge einer Teilnahme an einem SEO Kurs
  43. 2013-05-10 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] (fwd) Private Gun Buyers Intercept Folks At Police Buyback Program
  44. 2013-05-10 Ruben <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Age Discrimination in the Tech World.... the real deal
  45. 2013-05-10 From: "Redpill" <red.pill-at-verizon.net> RE: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] 12 years too late and not so impressive
  46. 2013-05-11 swd <sderrick-at-optonline.net> RE: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] 12 years too late and not so impressive
  47. 2013-05-12 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Cannon Camera Free Software
  48. 2013-05-12 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Oh come on, a little fraud isn't so bad...
  49. 2013-05-12 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Fwd: $25 for 5-9pm Half Day Afternoon Fishing Trip
  50. 2013-05-16 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Fwd: nixCraft Linux / UNIX Blog Newsletter
  51. 2013-05-16 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Tech Jobs overseas
  52. 2013-05-17 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Drugs are good
  53. 2013-05-17 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Oh come on, a little fraud isn't so bad...
  54. 2013-05-17 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Oh come on, a little fraud isn't so bad...
  55. 2013-05-18 From: "Redpill" <red.pill-at-verizon.net> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Fishing Report
  56. 2013-05-18 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] ending the extended adulesence
  57. 2013-05-19 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Rocket Brigrade - At the ready Sir!
  58. 2013-05-19 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] [edisoncareerfair-at-ncfairs.com: Edison Job Fair - Get Company List]
  59. 2013-05-21 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Fishing Report
  60. 2013-05-21 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Fishing Report
  61. 2013-05-22 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Fishing Report
  62. 2013-05-22 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Fishing Report
  63. 2013-05-24 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] where coding and science collide
  64. 2013-05-27 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] [edisoncareerfair-at-ncfairs.com: Edison Job Fair - Get Company List]
  65. 2013-05-27 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Fishing Report
  66. 2013-05-27 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Fishing Report
  67. 2013-05-27 From: "Redpill" <red.pill-at-verizon.net> RE: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Fishing Report
  68. 2013-05-27 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Gorilla Marketing and B&H
  69. 2013-05-27 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Fishing Report
  70. 2013-05-28 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Fishing Report
  71. 2013-05-29 Paul Robert Marino <prmarino1-at-gmail.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] I think Hell just froze over
  72. 2013-05-29 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Oh come on, a little fraud isn't so bad...
  73. 2013-05-29 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Oh come on, a little fraud isn't so bad...
  74. 2013-05-29 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Oh come on, a little fraud isn't so bad...
  75. 2013-05-29 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Oh come on, a little fraud isn't so bad...
  76. 2013-05-29 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] I think Hell just froze over
  77. 2013-05-29 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] [ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com: Re: NTEN Connect: NPTech in the Cloud - Plus
  78. 2013-05-29 einker <eminker-at-gmail.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] I think Hell just froze over
  79. 2013-05-29 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] summer jobs
  80. 2013-05-29 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] summer jobs
  81. 2013-05-30 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] continued retailed spying
  82. 2013-05-30 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Oh come on, a little fraud isn't so bad...
  83. 2013-05-30 Paul Robert Marino <prmarino1-at-gmail.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] I think Hell just froze over
  84. 2013-05-30 Paul Robert Marino <prmarino1-at-gmail.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] I think Hell just froze over
  85. 2013-05-31 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] cellphone technology is ....

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