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DATE 2014-10-01

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Key: archive Value: 2014-10-01

Key: id Value: 542584

MESSAGE
DATE 2014-10-18
FROM Ruben Safir
SUBJECT Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Theodore Ts'o on systemd - almost on target
From owner-hangout-outgoing-at-mrbrklyn.com Sat Oct 18 19:28:13 2014
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Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2014 19:28:10 -0400
From: Ruben Safir
To: hangout-at-nylxs.com
Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Theodore Ts'o on systemd - almost on target
Message-ID: <20141018232810.GA9281-at-panix.com>
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Theodore Ts'o
A realization that I recently came to while discussing the whole systemd
controversy with some friends at the Collab Summit is that a lot of the
fear and uncertainty over systemd may not be so much about systemd, but
the fear and loathing over radical changes that have been coming down
the pike over the past few years, many of which have been not well
documented, and worse, had some truly catastrophic design flaws that
were extremely hard to fix. For example, I still have the following
magic installed in
/etc/polkit-1/localauthority/50-local.d/dont-bug-me.pka:

[Don't Bug Me]
Identity=unix-group:sudo
Action=*
ResultActive=yes

I added this because Network Manager insisted on popping up a window and
asking me to type my password whenever I tried joining a new network.
And figuring out how to make Network Manager not do such a brain-damaged
thing was so painful, that after going through reams of poorly
documented XML schemas, and 50 language translations interspersed with
actual configuration in various XML files, I just gave up and used the
Big Hammer to make policykit just Completely Go Away.

I could tell similar horror stories about dbus when I had to debug
various suspend/resume failures, which is something else which is
similarly opaque and impossible to understand, but the point is that
many of these failures have caused many people to want simple shell
scripts, instead of having to crawl through badly designed XML schemas,
or someone else's complex C or C++ code, just to figure out what the
hell they did and how to patch around their design fail.

It's not entirely fair to charge all of this to Systemd's account, but I
think one of the reasons why this happens is because +Kay Sievers and
+Lennart Poettering often have the same response style to criticisms as
the +GNOME developers --- go away, you're clueless, we know better than
you, and besides, we have commit privs and you don't, so go away.

That being said, I recently did try moving my laptop to systemd, and I
was pleasantly surprised by the Debian's integration --- it didn't blow
away my rsyslog configuration, or do any number of a things that I'm
worried about. +GNOME may start depending on more and more of
systemd's features, and thus make it even harder to configure away its
design failings, but that's +GNOME's problem, not systemd. And
besides, this is why I'm using XFCE and not GNOME. :-)

I do find it very difficult sometimes to figure out why a particular
systemd service gets started, and when I tried putting together a
battery target which would automatically shut down various daemons that
I don't need when I want to save power, it apparently somehow caused the
brightness keys (fn-F5 and fn-F6) to mysteriously stop working --- and
as I expected, it was impossible to debug. So instead of using a
systemd target, I'll just hack together a shell script that runs the
necessary "service stop" instead of using a systemd target. If
things start breaking horribly, I'll file debian bugs, and try to find
ways to work around the brain damage. The fact that I won't be able to
edit shell scripts to work around brain damage is still a little
anxiety-producing, and the fact it's much more difficult to create a
runlevel which is "just like runlevel 3 but without certain services
running" is unfortunate, but I'll give it a try and see how much pain is
involved.

At least with Debian, it's relatively easy (at least at this point) to
roll back to sysvinit if systemd proves to be intolerable. I figure I
might as well try it now before I'm forced off of sysvinit and then
discover all of the things that break and which can't be easily worked
around.?

https://plus.google.com/+TheodoreTso/posts/4W6rrMMvhWU


  1. 2014-10-02 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] opensuse 13.1
  2. 2014-10-02 Chris Knadle <Chris.Knadle-at-coredump.us> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] opensuse 13.1
  3. 2014-10-06 mrbrklyn-at-panix.com Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] HW 1
  4. 2014-10-07 einker <eminker-at-gmail.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Rant of the Day
  5. 2014-10-07 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Rant of the Day
  6. 2014-10-07 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Installfest
  7. 2014-10-07 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Installfest
  8. 2014-10-08 einker <eminker-at-gmail.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Rant of the Day
  9. 2014-10-12 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] News from Israel
  10. 2014-10-12 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] [ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com: new programming language]
  11. 2014-10-12 mrbrklyn-at-panix.com Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] [tetris4-at-gmail.com: Re: chakra installation and fdisk]
  12. 2014-10-12 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] system D is out of fucking control
  13. 2014-10-12 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] some none systemd chocies
  14. 2014-10-12 mrbrklyn-at-panix.com Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] [info-at-meetup.com: Tomorrow: Join 10 Python Programmers and Users at
  15. 2014-10-12 mrbrklyn-at-panix.com Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Arts and Crafts
  16. 2014-10-12 Chris Knadle <Chris.Knadle-at-coredump.us> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] system D is out of fucking control
  17. 2014-10-12 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] system D is out of fucking control
  18. 2014-10-12 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Apache Security tips
  19. 2014-10-18 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Microsoft Key Logging built into OS
  20. 2014-10-18 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] SystemD development hostility towards the GNU/Linux community
  21. 2014-10-18 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Objecting to SystemdD useless even for Linus
  22. 2014-10-18 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Theodore Ts'o on systemd - almost on target
  23. 2014-10-18 mrbrklyn-at-panix.com Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] [rickmoen-at-gmail.com: systemd fallacies debunked]
  24. 2014-10-18 mrbrklyn-at-panix.com Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] [csconnection-at-computer.org: Must-Attend Data Event: We're Saving
  25. 2014-10-18 mrbrklyn-at-panix.com Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] [csconnection-at-computer.org: Stay Ahead of the Curve. Come to the
  26. 2014-10-18 mrbrklyn-at-panix.com Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] [enews-at-pharmacytimes.com: Breaking News: Practice Brief on Ebola]
  27. 2014-10-18 mrbrklyn-at-panix.com Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] [hpwebos-at-news.hpwebosnewsletters.com: HP webOS User Newsletter]
  28. 2014-10-19 mrbrklyn-at-panix.com Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] [brian.gupta-at-brandorr.com: [nylug-talk] Fwd: The Debian Outreach
  29. 2014-10-22 mrbrklyn-at-panix.com Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] [ianseeks-at-yahoo.co.uk: Re: [opensuse] System D: Debian Fork]
  30. 2014-10-22 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] system D is out of fucking control
  31. 2014-10-23 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] The Dingo-OS manifesto
  32. 2014-10-23 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] The Dingo-OS manifesto
  33. 2014-10-25 Elfen Magix <elfen_magix-at-yahoo.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Anybody munching on Raspberry Pi?
  34. 2014-10-30 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] =?windows-1252?Q?Fwd=3A_=5Bisoc-ny=5D_VIDEO=3A_Protecting_?=
  35. 2014-10-30 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Fwd: nixCraft Linux / UNIX Newsletter
  36. 2014-10-30 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Fwd: nixCraft Linux / UNIX Newsletter
  37. 2014-10-30 mrbrklyn-at-panix.com Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] VIDEO: NYC Social Infrastructure & Tech Ecosystem: Are We At An
  38. 2014-10-30 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] thin clients
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  40. 2014-10-30 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Fwd: Invitation: Experience with C++11 in ArangoDB
  41. 2014-10-31 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Computer Archotecture Quiz
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