Mon Mar 30 16:41:31 2020
EVENTS
 FREE
SOFTWARE
INSTITUTE

POLITICS
JOBS
MEMBERS'
CORNER

MAILING
LIST

NYLXS Mailing Lists and Archives
NYLXS Members have a lot to say and share but we don't keep many secrets. Join the Hangout Mailing List and say your peice.

DATE 2016-12-01

LEARN

2020-03-30 | 2020-02-29 | 2020-01-29 | 2019-12-29 | 2019-11-29 | 2019-10-29 | 2019-09-29 | 2019-08-29 | 2019-07-29 | 2019-06-29 | 2019-05-29 | 2019-04-29 | 2019-03-29 | 2019-02-28 | 2019-01-28 | 2018-12-28 | 2018-11-28 | 2018-10-28 | 2018-09-28 | 2018-08-28 | 2018-07-28 | 2018-06-28 | 2018-05-28 | 2018-04-28 | 2018-03-28 | 2018-02-28 | 2018-01-28 | 2017-12-28 | 2017-11-28 | 2017-10-28 | 2017-09-28 | 2017-08-28 | 2017-07-28 | 2017-06-28 | 2017-05-28 | 2017-04-28 | 2017-03-28 | 2017-02-28 | 2017-01-28 | 2016-12-28 | 2016-11-28 | 2016-10-28 | 2016-09-28 | 2016-08-28 | 2016-07-28 | 2016-06-28 | 2016-05-28 | 2016-04-28 | 2016-03-28 | 2016-02-28 | 2016-01-28 | 2015-12-28 | 2015-11-28 | 2015-10-28 | 2015-09-28 | 2015-08-28 | 2015-07-28 | 2015-06-28 | 2015-05-28 | 2015-04-28 | 2015-03-28 | 2015-02-28 | 2015-01-28 | 2014-12-28 | 2014-11-28 | 2014-10-28

Key: archive_learn Value: 2016-12-01

Key: id Value: 543568

MESSAGE
DATE 2016-12-14
FROM Ruben Safir
SUBJECT Subject: [Learn] Fwd: Re: [dinosaur] Ceratopsid (Centrosaurinae:
From learn-bounces-at-nylxs.com Wed Dec 14 04:26:45 2016
Return-Path:
X-Original-To: archive-at-mrbrklyn.com
Delivered-To: archive-at-mrbrklyn.com
Received: from www.mrbrklyn.com (www.mrbrklyn.com [96.57.23.82])
by mrbrklyn.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6136E161316;
Wed, 14 Dec 2016 04:26:45 -0500 (EST)
X-Original-To: learn-at-nylxs.com
Delivered-To: learn-at-nylxs.com
Received: from [10.0.0.62] (flatbush.mrbrklyn.com [10.0.0.62])
by mrbrklyn.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9FDE3160E77;
Wed, 14 Dec 2016 04:26:39 -0500 (EST)
References:
To: Hangout , learn-at-nylxs.com
From: Ruben Safir
X-Forwarded-Message-Id:
Message-ID: <7cdb173c-db30-4ecc-db60-f15692b8d996-at-mrbrklyn.com>
Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2016 04:26:39 -0500
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101
Thunderbird/45.5.1
MIME-Version: 1.0
In-Reply-To:
Subject: [Learn] Fwd: Re: [dinosaur] Ceratopsid (Centrosaurinae:
Nasutoceratopsini) from Oldman Formation of Alberta (free pdf)
X-BeenThere: learn-at-nylxs.com
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17
Precedence: list
List-Id:
List-Unsubscribe: ,

List-Archive:
List-Post:
List-Help:
List-Subscribe: ,

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Errors-To: learn-bounces-at-nylxs.com
Sender: "Learn"

just for notes


-------- Forwarded Message --------
Subject: Re: [dinosaur] Ceratopsid (Centrosaurinae: Nasutoceratopsini)
from Oldman Formation of Alberta (free pdf)
Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2016 06:47:33 +0000
From: Mickey Mortimer
Reply-To: Mickey Mortimer
To: DML

I was going to comment on this myself, but of course in the well-worn
opposite direction. I think the current state of ceratopsid
nomenclature is unrealistically oversplit, where a few differences or
million years are considered enough to doubt conspecificity (ditto for
Tschopp's Morrison diplodocids). Compare this to theropods, where there
are tons of differences between e.g. Tyrannosaurus rex specimens, which
are known from the lower and upper parts of the Hell Creek Formation, as
well as the Scollard, Denver, Lance, Frenchman, etc. Formations all over
the continent. I would call Ryan et al.'s Nasutoceratopsini Avaceratops.


Notably, Ryan et al. are confusingly contradictory in their discussion
of Avaceratops. They first state the holotype specimen "ANSP 15800 has
three unambiguous autapomorphies: Ch 36 (jugal infratemporal process,
1>0; absent), Ch 49 (parietal, sharp median crest, 1>0; absent), and Ch
53 (marginal dermal ossifications on parietal and squamosal, 1>0;
absent)", but then they say "it is currently difficult to diagnose
Avaceratops because it appears to lack autapomorphies or any unique
combination of characters." Their conclusion is "As a result,
Avaceratops is represented only by the type specimen

(ANSP 15800). This immature individual exhibits no undisputed
apomorphies, rendering a diagnosis of the taxon problematic.
Nevertheless, the specimen cannot be attributed to any other known
centrosaurine, and so the genus cannot be synonymized or declared a
nomen dubium."

Which is it? If it has no autapomorphies or character combinations
considered taxonomically valid, then it _could_ be synonymized with
Nasutoceratops or alternatively declared a nomen dubium if it also
couldn't be distinguished from other diagnostic nasutoceratopsin genera
(e.g. maybe the Malta taxon once it's named). But if it can't be
attributed to any other known taxon, then that must be based evidence
which would thus form the diagnosis.

Finally, why do you continue the myth that ICZN-covered taxa like
Ceratopsidae are affected by the eponymous genus' diagnosability?
Haven't I put enough stakes into Wilson and Upchurch's baseless
assertion this is the case?

Mickey Mortimer


________________________________
From: dinosaur-l-request-at-usc.edu on behalf
of Tim Williams
Sent: Tuesday, December 13, 2016 9:40 PM
To: dinosaur-l-at-usc.edu
Subject: Re: [dinosaur] Ceratopsid (Centrosaurinae: Nasutoceratopsini)
from Oldman Formation of Alberta (free pdf)

In light of the problems surrounding the genus _Ceratops_ (see below;
but short version - it's toast), this might be a good opportunity to
abandon the 'family' Ceratopsidae. Instead, raise Centrosaurinae and
Chasmosaurinae to 'family' level (Centrosauridae, Chasmosauridae), so
the new 'tribes' Centrosaurini and Nasutoceraratopsini (coined by Ryan
et al. [2016]) would each become 'subfamilies': Centrosaurinae and
Nasutoceratopsinae. Similarly, Triceratopsini would be bumped up to
Triceratopsinae within Chasmosauridae. I'm not a huge fan of these
Linnaean constructs (and the obtruse ICZN rules that govern them), but
since we seem to be stuck with them, it's clear that _Ceratops_ should
not be giving its name to any coordinated family-level taxon.

_Ceratops_ (type species _C. montanus_) is known only a pair of
postorbital horn cores and a partial occiput. The horn cores are
quite long and dorsolaterally projecting. _Kosmoceratops_ and
_Albertaceratops_ specimens also have long and dorsolaterally
projecting postorbital horncores (Mallon et al., 2016).
_Albertaceratops_ is a centrosaurine, whereas _Kosmoceratops_ is a
chasmosaurine; so the horns of _Ceratops_ can't even be used to sort
it into either Centrosaurinae or Chasmosaurinae. So _Ceratops_ is
useless as a specifier.

_Ceratops_ is clearly a nomen dubium. The only way to salvage the
name _Ceratops_ is designate a neotype that is diagnostic. This is
highly unlikely ever to happen. The best chance was the Judith River
Formation chasmosaurine specimen CMN 57081. From Mallon et al.
(2016): "It is possible - even likely, given their close stratigraphic
and geological association - that '_Ceratops_' and CMN 57081 are the
same species, but without conclusive evidence for such, it is
preferable to erect a new species for CMN 57081." So CMN 57081 became
_Spiclypeus_, rather than being referred to _Ceratops_, or nominating
it as the neotype of _Ceratops_. This was undoubtedly the best
decision. The nasutoceratopsin skull MOR 692 (tentatively regarded as
an adult _Avaceratops_ by Penkalski and Dodson [1999], but removed
from _Avaceratops_ by Ryan et al. [2016]) comes from the Coal Ridge
Member of the Judith River Formation, like _Spiclyepus_; but MOR 692
is an even weaker choice than CMN 57081 to become a _Ceratops_
neotype.

The only reason to nominate a neotype for _Ceratops_ at all would be
for book-keeping/nomenclatural reasons: _Ceratops_ is the name-giver
for Ceratopsidae and coordinated taxa like 'superfamily'
Ceratopsoidea. (Ceratopsia, Ceratopsomorpha etc are fine, because
they are exempt from ICZN rules.) But promoting Centrosaurinae and
Chasmosaurinae to families - or simply changing the name of
Ceratopsidae to Centrosauridae - means that _Ceratops_ can be
forgotten forever.


On Wed, Dec 14, 2016 at 4:56 AM, Ben Creisler wrote:
> The official news release with illustrations:
>
>
> Researchers name two new horned dinosaur tribes
>
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.cmnh.org_announcements_ceratopsian-2Dtribes&d=DgIFaQ&c=clK7kQUTWtAVEOVIgvi0NU5BOUHhpN0H8p7CSfnc_gI&r=Ry_mO4IFaUmGof_Yl9MyZgecRCKHn5g4z1CYJgFW9SI&m=IRbuPQptQNlXoZq8JovgUI5ojPaPTN8TdtaKzKaQBeA&s=dkv3SQEX9GiwGDvDZ2Y5V6unoWajl4NvLyWRRmuybuQ&e=
>
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__phys.org_news_2016-2D12-2Dscientists-2Dredefine-2Dhorned-2Ddinosaur-2Drelationships.html&d=DgIFaQ&c=clK7kQUTWtAVEOVIgvi0NU5BOUHhpN0H8p7CSfnc_gI&r=Ry_mO4IFaUmGof_Yl9MyZgecRCKHn5g4z1CYJgFW9SI&m=IRbuPQptQNlXoZq8JovgUI5ojPaPTN8TdtaKzKaQBeA&s=v-9lru50LBa481z6Bnw8L-ce1VZgUU53Wu6t5Z9Bg9U&e=

_______________________________________________
Learn mailing list
Learn-at-nylxs.com
http://lists.mrbrklyn.com/mailman/listinfo/learn

  1. 2016-12-01 Ruben Safir <ruben.safir-at-my.liu.edu> Subject: [Learn] Fwd: Patrolling the Dark Net,
  2. 2016-12-02 ruben safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Learn] Fwd: Tutorial on threaded binary tree part 1: simple
  3. 2016-12-03 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Learn] Witner Labs
  4. 2016-12-04 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Learn] Nice lecture on Quantum Mechanics
  5. 2016-12-05 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Learn] information access, copyright wars and DRM
  6. 2016-12-06 Christopher League <league-at-contrapunctus.net> Re: [Learn] png data format
  7. 2016-12-06 Christopher League <league-at-contrapunctus.net> Re: [Learn] png data format
  8. 2016-12-06 Christopher League <league-at-contrapunctus.net> Re: [Learn] png data format
  9. 2016-12-06 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [Learn] png data format
  10. 2016-12-06 Christopher League <league-at-contrapunctus.net> Re: [Learn] png data format
  11. 2016-12-06 Ruben Safir <ruben.safir-at-my.liu.edu> Re: [Learn] png data format
  12. 2016-12-06 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [Learn] png data format
  13. 2016-12-06 Christopher League <league-at-contrapunctus.net> Re: [Learn] png data format
  14. 2016-12-06 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Re: [Learn] png data format
  15. 2016-12-06 Christopher League <league-at-contrapunctus.net> Re: [Learn] png data format
  16. 2016-12-06 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [Learn] [Hangout-NYLXS] png data format
  17. 2016-12-06 John Bowler <john.cunningham.bowler-at-gmail.com> Re: [Learn] [png-mng-implement] 4 byte length storage
  18. 2016-12-06 John Bowler <john.cunningham.bowler-at-gmail.com> Re: [Learn] [png-mng-implement] 4 byte length storage
  19. 2016-12-06 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [Learn] [png-mng-implement] 4 byte length storage
  20. 2016-12-06 ruben safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Learn] Fwd: Ocaml
  21. 2016-12-06 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Learn] Fwd: Re: [luny-talk] Humble Bundle O'Reilly UNIX books
  22. 2016-12-06 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Learn] JT's words
  23. 2016-12-06 ruben safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Learn] png data format
  24. 2016-12-07 ruben safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Learn] Fwd: Re: png data format
  25. 2016-12-08 ruben safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Learn] Fwd: png data format
  26. 2016-12-08 ruben safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Learn] Fwd: Re: png data format
  27. 2016-12-08 ruben safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Learn] Fwd: Re: png data format
  28. 2016-12-10 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [Learn] references to pointers
  29. 2016-12-10 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Learn] C++ returning lvalue references and pointers and refs
  30. 2016-12-10 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Learn] const puzzle and literal type arguments
  31. 2016-12-11 ruben safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Learn] Fwd: Re: png data format
  32. 2016-12-12 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [Learn] Fwd: Re: png data format
  33. 2016-12-12 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Learn] gene phylogienics of homonids
  34. 2016-12-13 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Learn] Bit Depth
  35. 2016-12-13 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Learn] C++ Threads Workshop
  36. 2016-12-13 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Learn] Summer Jobs
  37. 2016-12-14 From: "Mancini, Sabin (DFS)" <Sabin.Mancini-at-dfs.ny.gov> Subject: [Learn] For Ruben ( + those in NYC Metro ) : Holiday Social Event
  38. 2016-12-14 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Learn] Fwd: Re: [dinosaur] Ceratopsid (Centrosaurinae:
  39. 2016-12-15 Ruben Safir <ruben.safir-at-my.liu.edu> Re: [Learn] Happy Holidays
  40. 2016-12-15 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [Learn] zlib demo with vector::resize
  41. 2016-12-15 John Bowler <john.cunningham.bowler-at-gmail.com> Re: [Learn] [png-mng-implement] 4 byte length storage
  42. 2016-12-15 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Learn] Fwd: [dinosaur] Elephant bird nuclear genome fragments
  43. 2016-12-15 Christopher League <league-at-contrapunctus.net> Subject: [Learn] zlib demo with vector::resize
  44. 2016-12-16 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [Learn] zlib demo with vector::resize
  45. 2016-12-16 Christopher League <league-at-contrapunctus.net> Re: [Learn] zlib demo with vector::resize
  46. 2016-12-16 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Learn] PNG Parallel Programming problem
  47. 2016-12-17 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [Learn] [Hangout-NYLXS] I'm sure it's a coincidence, part n+1
  48. 2016-12-17 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [Learn] irc thread on the use of object methods in threads
  49. 2016-12-17 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Learn] PNG threaded program
  50. 2016-12-18 ruben safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [Learn] Threads and Object Methods
  51. 2016-12-18 ruben safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [Learn] Threads and Object Methods
  52. 2016-12-18 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Learn] Look C++ is a functional programming language
  53. 2016-12-19 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [Learn] C++ Threading
  54. 2016-12-19 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Learn] C++ Threading
  55. 2016-12-19 ISOC-NY announcements <announce-at-lists.isoc-ny.org> Subject: [Learn] [isoc-ny] JOB: Telecommunications Policy Specialist -at- NTIA
  56. 2016-12-20 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Learn] F'ing Mouse Pad
  57. 2016-12-20 mrbrklyn <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [Learn] Phylogenetic study worth noting
  58. 2016-12-21 Samir Iabbassen <Samir.Iabbassen-at-liu.edu> Re: [Learn] Noobdy is home
  59. 2016-12-21 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Re: [Learn] Noobdy is home
  60. 2016-12-21 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [Learn] Noobdy is home
  61. 2016-12-21 Samir Iabbassen <Samir.Iabbassen-at-liu.edu> Re: [Learn] thread concurancy
  62. 2016-12-21 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Re: [Learn] thread concurancy
  63. 2016-12-21 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [Learn] (fwd) Re: lamda's in classes
  64. 2016-12-21 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [Learn] (fwd) Re: lamda's in classes
  65. 2016-12-21 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [Learn] (fwd) Re: thread concurancy
  66. 2016-12-21 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [Learn] (fwd) Re: Threads and Object Methods
  67. 2016-12-21 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [Learn] (fwd) Re: Threads and Object Methods
  68. 2016-12-21 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [Learn] (fwd) Re: Threads and Object Methods
  69. 2016-12-21 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [Learn] (fwd) Re: Threads and Object Methods
  70. 2016-12-21 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [Learn] (fwd) Re: Threads and Object Methods
  71. 2016-12-21 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [Learn] (fwd) Re: Threads and Object Methods
  72. 2016-12-21 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [Learn] (fwd) Re: Threads and Object Methods
  73. 2016-12-21 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [Learn] (fwd) Re: Threads and Object Methods
  74. 2016-12-21 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [Learn] (fwd) Re: Threads and Object Methods
  75. 2016-12-21 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [Learn] (fwd) thread concurancy
  76. 2016-12-21 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [Learn] (fwd) Threads and Object Methods
  77. 2016-12-21 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Learn] I need help
  78. 2016-12-21 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Learn] Noobdy is home
  79. 2016-12-21 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Learn] thread concurancy
  80. 2016-12-21 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Learn] [Hangout-NYLXS] Marnchester by the Sea
  81. 2016-12-22 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Re: [Learn] [Hangout-NYLXS] And be aware you were an unexcused
  82. 2016-12-22 ruben safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Learn] Fwd: Re: thread concurancy
  83. 2016-12-23 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [Learn] HOPL (History of Programming Languages)
  84. 2016-12-23 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [Learn] Noobdy is home
  85. 2016-12-23 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [Learn] Tiny Compiler in many languages at Rosettacode.org
  86. 2016-12-25 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Learn] Google and C++
  87. 2016-12-25 Ruben Safir <ruben.safir-at-my.liu.edu> Subject: [Learn] phylogentics
  88. 2016-12-27 Samir Iabbassen <Samir.Iabbassen-at-liu.edu> Re: [Learn] thread concurancy

NYLXS are Do'ers and the first step of Doing is Joining! Join NYLXS and make a difference in your community today!