Fri Apr 19 21:17:50 2024
EVENTS
 FREE
SOFTWARE
INSTITUTE

POLITICS
JOBS
MEMBERS'
CORNER

MAILING
LIST

NYLXS Mailing Lists and Archives
NYLXS Members have a lot to say and share but we don't keep many secrets. Join the Hangout Mailing List and say your peice.

DATE 2015-11-01

HANGOUT

2024-04-19 | 2024-03-19 | 2024-02-19 | 2024-01-19 | 2023-12-19 | 2023-11-19 | 2023-10-19 | 2023-09-19 | 2023-08-19 | 2023-07-19 | 2023-06-19 | 2023-05-19 | 2023-04-19 | 2023-03-19 | 2023-02-19 | 2023-01-19 | 2022-12-19 | 2022-11-19 | 2022-10-19 | 2022-09-19 | 2022-08-19 | 2022-07-19 | 2022-06-19 | 2022-05-19 | 2022-04-19 | 2022-03-19 | 2022-02-19 | 2022-01-19 | 2021-12-19 | 2021-11-19 | 2021-10-19 | 2021-09-19 | 2021-08-19 | 2021-07-19 | 2021-06-19 | 2021-05-19 | 2021-04-19 | 2021-03-19 | 2021-02-19 | 2021-01-19 | 2020-12-19 | 2020-11-19 | 2020-10-19 | 2020-09-19 | 2020-08-19 | 2020-07-19 | 2020-06-19 | 2020-05-19 | 2020-04-19 | 2020-03-19 | 2020-02-19 | 2020-01-19 | 2019-12-19 | 2019-11-19 | 2019-10-19 | 2019-09-19 | 2019-08-19 | 2019-07-19 | 2019-06-19 | 2019-05-19 | 2019-04-19 | 2019-03-19 | 2019-02-19 | 2019-01-19 | 2018-12-19 | 2018-11-19 | 2018-10-19 | 2018-09-19 | 2018-08-19 | 2018-07-19 | 2018-06-19 | 2018-05-19 | 2018-04-19 | 2018-03-19 | 2018-02-19 | 2018-01-19 | 2017-12-19 | 2017-11-19 | 2017-10-19 | 2017-09-19 | 2017-08-19 | 2017-07-19 | 2017-06-19 | 2017-05-19 | 2017-04-19 | 2017-03-19 | 2017-02-19 | 2017-01-19 | 2016-12-19 | 2016-11-19 | 2016-10-19 | 2016-09-19 | 2016-08-19 | 2016-07-19 | 2016-06-19 | 2016-05-19 | 2016-04-19 | 2016-03-19 | 2016-02-19 | 2016-01-19 | 2015-12-19 | 2015-11-19 | 2015-10-19 | 2015-09-19 | 2015-08-19 | 2015-07-19 | 2015-06-19 | 2015-05-19 | 2015-04-19 | 2015-03-19 | 2015-02-19 | 2015-01-19 | 2014-12-19 | 2014-11-19 | 2014-10-19 | 2014-09-19 | 2014-08-19 | 2014-07-19 | 2014-06-19 | 2014-05-19 | 2014-04-19 | 2014-03-19 | 2014-02-19 | 2014-01-19 | 2013-12-19 | 2013-11-19 | 2013-10-19 | 2013-09-19 | 2013-08-19 | 2013-07-19 | 2013-06-19 | 2013-05-19 | 2013-04-19 | 2013-03-19 | 2013-02-19 | 2013-01-19 | 2012-12-19 | 2012-11-19 | 2012-10-19 | 2012-09-19 | 2012-08-19 | 2012-07-19 | 2012-06-19 | 2012-05-19 | 2012-04-19 | 2012-03-19 | 2012-02-19 | 2012-01-19 | 2011-12-19 | 2011-11-19 | 2011-10-19 | 2011-09-19 | 2011-08-19 | 2011-07-19 | 2011-06-19 | 2011-05-19 | 2011-04-19 | 2011-03-19 | 2011-02-19 | 2011-01-19 | 2010-12-19 | 2010-11-19 | 2010-10-19 | 2010-09-19 | 2010-08-19 | 2010-07-19 | 2010-06-19 | 2010-05-19 | 2010-04-19 | 2010-03-19 | 2010-02-19 | 2010-01-19 | 2009-12-19 | 2009-11-19 | 2009-10-19 | 2009-09-19 | 2009-08-19 | 2009-07-19 | 2009-06-19 | 2009-05-19 | 2009-04-19 | 2009-03-19 | 2009-02-19 | 2009-01-19 | 2008-12-19 | 2008-11-19 | 2008-10-19 | 2008-09-19 | 2008-08-19 | 2008-07-19 | 2008-06-19 | 2008-05-19 | 2008-04-19 | 2008-03-19 | 2008-02-19 | 2008-01-19 | 2007-12-19 | 2007-11-19 | 2007-10-19 | 2007-09-19 | 2007-08-19 | 2007-07-19 | 2007-06-19 | 2007-05-19 | 2007-04-19 | 2007-03-19 | 2007-02-19 | 2007-01-19 | 2006-12-19 | 2006-11-19 | 2006-10-19 | 2006-09-19 | 2006-08-19 | 2006-07-19 | 2006-06-19 | 2006-05-19 | 2006-04-19 | 2006-03-19 | 2006-02-19 | 2006-01-19 | 2005-12-19 | 2005-11-19 | 2005-10-19 | 2005-09-19 | 2005-08-19 | 2005-07-19 | 2005-06-19 | 2005-05-19 | 2005-04-19 | 2005-03-19 | 2005-02-19 | 2005-01-19 | 2004-12-19 | 2004-11-19 | 2004-10-19 | 2004-09-19 | 2004-08-19 | 2004-07-19 | 2004-06-19 | 2004-05-19 | 2004-04-19 | 2004-03-19 | 2004-02-19 | 2004-01-19 | 2003-12-19 | 2003-11-19 | 2003-10-19 | 2003-09-19 | 2003-08-19 | 2003-07-19 | 2003-06-19 | 2003-05-19 | 2003-04-19 | 2003-03-19 | 2003-02-19 | 2003-01-19 | 2002-12-19 | 2002-11-19 | 2002-10-19 | 2002-09-19 | 2002-08-19 | 2002-07-19 | 2002-06-19 | 2002-05-19 | 2002-04-19 | 2002-03-19 | 2002-02-19 | 2002-01-19 | 2001-12-19 | 2001-11-19 | 2001-10-19 | 2001-09-19 | 2001-08-19 | 2001-07-19 | 2001-06-19 | 2001-05-19 | 2001-04-19 | 2001-03-19 | 2001-02-19 | 2001-01-19 | 2000-12-19 | 2000-11-19 | 2000-10-19 | 2000-09-19 | 2000-08-19 | 2000-07-19 | 2000-06-19 | 2000-05-19 | 2000-04-19 | 2000-03-19 | 2000-02-19 | 2000-01-19 | 1999-12-19

Key: Value:

Key: Value:

MESSAGE
DATE 2015-11-05
FROM Ruben Safir
SUBJECT Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] Fun with FUN in the largest Washington Post Article
How about this fun FUD

t took years for the Internet to reach its first 100 computers. Today,
100 new ones join each second. And running deep within the silicon souls
of most of these machines is the work of a technical wizard of
remarkable power, a man described as a genius and a bully, a spiritual
leader and a benevolent dictator.

Linus Torvalds — who in person could be mistaken for just another
paunchy, middle-aged suburban dad who happens to have a curiously large
collection of stuffed penguin dolls — looms over the future of computing
much as Bill Gates and the late Steve Jobs loom over its past and
present. For Linux, the operating system that Torvalds created and named
after himself, has come to dominate the exploding online world, making
it more popular overall than rivals from Microsoft and Apple.

The making of a vulnerable Internet: This story is the fifth of a
multi-part project on the Internet’s inherent vulnerabilities and why
they may never be fixed.

Part 1: The story of how the Internet became so vulnerable.
Part 2: The long life of a ‘quick fix.’
Part 3: These hackers warned the Internet would become a security
disaster. Nobody listened.
Part 4: How yesterday’s flaws are being built into tomorrow’s connected
world.
Read the eBook. The Threatened Net: How the Internet Became a Perilous Place

But while Linux is fast, flexible and free, a growing chorus of critics
warn that it has security weaknesses that could be fixed but haven’t
been. Worse, as Internet security has surged as a subject of
international concern, Torvalds has engaged in an occasionally profane
standoff with experts on the subject. One group he has dismissed as
“masturbating monkeys.” In blasting the security features produced by
another group, he said in a public post, “Please just kill yourself now.
The world would be a better place.”

There are legitimate philosophical differences amid the harsh words.
Linux has thrived in part because of Torvalds’s relentless focus on
performance and reliability, both of which could suffer if more security
features were added. Linux works on almost any chip in the world and is
famously stable as it manages the demands of many programs at once,
allowing computers to hum along for years at a time without rebooting.

Above: Creator Linus Torvalds’s relentless focus on performance and
reliability has helped Linux thrive. (Amanda Lucier for The Washington Post)

Yet even among Linux’s many fans there is growing unease about
vulnerabilities in the operating system’s most basic, foundational
elements — housed in something called “the kernel,” which Torvalds has
personally managed since its creation in 1991. Even more so, there is
concern that Torvalds’s approach to security is too passive, bordering
on indifferent.

“Linus doesn’t take security seriously; it’s yet another concern in his
mind, and he’s surrounded himself with people who share those views,”
said Daniel Micay, a Toronto-based security researcher whose company,
Copperhead, is developing a hardened version of the Android mobile
operating system, which is based on Linux. “There are a lot of kernel
developers who do really care about security, but they’re not the ones
making the calls.”

The rift between Torvalds and security experts is a particular source of
worry for those who see Linux becoming the dominant operating system at
a time when technology is blurring the borders between the online and
­offline worlds. Much as Windows long was the standard for personal
computers, Linux runs on most of the Internet’s servers. It also
operates on medical equipment, sensitive databases and computers on many
kinds of vehicles, including tiny drones and warships.

“If you don’t treat security like a religious fanatic, you are going to
be hurt like you can’t imagine. And Linus never took seriously the
religious fanaticism around security,” said Dave Aitel, a former
National Security Agency research scientist and founder of Immunity, a
Florida-based security company.

Torvalds — who despite his history of blistering online exchanges is
genial in person, often smiling from behind round-framed glasses —
indeed appears to be the opposite of a religious fanatic as he zips
around his adopted home town of Portland, Ore., in a yellow Mercedes
convertible. The license plate is “DAD OF3,” but it’s the plate holder
that better captures his sly sense of humor, somehow mixing
self-confidence with self-mockery. “MR. LINUX,” it reads, “KING OF GEEKS.”

Over several hours of conversation, Torvalds, 45, disputed suggestions
that security is not important to him or to Linux, but he acknowledged
being “at odds” with some security experts. His broader message was
this: Security of any system can never be perfect. So it always must be
weighed against other priorities — such as speed, flexibility and ease
of use — in a series of inherently nuanced trade-offs. This is a
pro­cess, Torvalds suggested, poorly understood by his critics.

“The people who care most about this stuff are completely crazy. They
are very black and white,” he said, speaking with a slight Nordic accent
from his native Finland. “Security in itself is useless. . . . The
upside is always somewhere else. The security is never the thing that
you really care about.”

When the interviewer asked whether Linux — designed in an era before
hacking had become a major criminal enterprise, a tool of war and
constant threat to the privacy of billions of people — was due for a
security overhaul after 24 years, Torvalds replied, “You’re making
sense, and you may even be right.”

But what followed was a bracing example of why Torvalds said the
interviewer was wrong: Imagine, Torvalds said, that terrorists exploited
a flaw in the Linux kernel to cause a meltdown at a nuclear power plant,
killing millions of people.

“There is no way in hell the problem there is the kernel,” Torvalds
said. “If you run a nuclear power plant that can kill millions of
people, you don’t connect it to the Internet.”

Or if you do, he continued, you build robust defenses such as firewalls
and other protections beyond the operating system so that a bug in the
Linux kernel is not enough to create a catastrophe.

“If I have to worry about that kind of scenario happening,” Torvalds
added with a wry grin, “I won’t get any work done.”

Even without a potential nuclear disaster, the stakes are high.
Operating system kernels are the most essential code on any computer,
allowing hardware to work smoothly with multiple pieces of software.
This makes kernels uniquely powerful — they can override the safeguards
on any other program, meaning nothing on a computer is truly secure if
the operating system kernel is not.

Now, consider this: The Linux kernel runs on the New York Stock
Exchange, every Android smartphone and nearly all of the world’s
supercomputers. Much of the rapidly expanding universe of connected
devices uses Linux, as do many of the world’s biggest companies,
including Google, Facebook and Amazon.com. The tech-heavy U.S. economy,
many would argue, also depends on the smooth functioning of Linux.

Even more broadly, the battle over Linux security is a fight over the
future of the online world. At a time when leading computer scientists
are debating whether the Internet is so broken that it needs to be
replaced, the network is expanding faster than ever, layering flaw upon
flaw in an ever-expanding web of insecurity. Perhaps the best hope for
fixing this, some experts argue, lies in changing the operating system
that — more than any other — controls these machines.

But first, they have to change the mind of Linus Torvalds.
Video: The world’s most popular operating system you’ve probably never
heard of
Accidental hero

Stories about tech titans tend toward pat narratives: the blazing
discovery, the shrewd business moves, the thrilling triumph after years
of struggle. The story of Torvalds, and by extension Linux, is almost
the opposite. He was a shy, brainy college student who built something
with no obvious market — a new operating system in a world that already
had Windows, Mac OS and Unix — and gave it away. It wasn’t a business.
It was a hobby.

There is a telling moment in his autobiography, “Just for Fun,” written
with journalist David Diamond, that captures this spirit of naive
experimentation. In early 1992, about six months after announcing the
creation of Linux, Torvalds posted an online message asking anyone using
the operating system to send him a postcard.

Soon, his mailbox in Helsinki overflowed with hundreds of postcards from
the United States, New Zealand, Japan and beyond. It was the first time
that his sister and mother, with whom Torvalds shared an apartment,
realized that he was up to something big. Torvalds had told them little
about what he was doing in his bedroom, perched over his computer, all
hours of the day and night.

This diffuse and ever-growing community of users proved to be the magic
that powered Linux. The operating system had its inherent virtues — it
was simple and clean; tech enthusiasts worldwide fell in love with its
elegance — but more important it was an “open-source” project. That
meant anybody could use it, alter it and even make a new version without
paying a cent, without even asking permission. Linux soon became, in a
phrase from Torvalds’s autobiography, the “world’s largest collaborative
project,” with contributors numbering in the hundreds of thousands. They
drove the growth of Linux long after Torvalds might have lost interest.

What is a kernel?

An operating system kernel manages requests from multiple pieces of
software as they ask hardware to perform tasks.

Applications

System

calls

User programs, like web browsers, run in “user space.”

These applications send requests to the kernel, called system calls, for
system resources like memory, storage, and graphics.

USER

SPACE

Kernel

KERNEL

SPACE

“Kernel space” is where protected actions regarding the computer’s
hardware occur.

The kernel receives system calls and decides what instructions to send
to the hardware.

Machine-level code

Operations at this level involve reading or deleting memory, processing,
and sending and receiving information to external devices, like
monitors, hard drives, mice, and keyboards.

Hardware

Source: Staff reports

LAZARO GAMIO/THE WASHINGTON POST

“In 1992,” he said, “I was like, ‘Wow, it does everything I wanted it to
do. What now?’ ”

Torvalds had little choice but to become the general of an unruly
volunteer army. As the kernel grew from 10,000 lines of code to 19
million, Torvalds created an elaborate and remarkably functional system
that, every couple of months, offered a free update of the Linux kernel
to anyone who wanted it.

Based on the kernel, others then tailored the operating systems to their
own tastes and purposes, adding even more lines of code that
collectively became fully fledged “distributions” of Linux that ran on
various types of computers. The price of admission to this elaborate
process was faith in Torvalds, although some went the extra step of
making an offering to their hero: free computer gear, company T-shirts
or penguin dolls (because a squat, cheerful-looking aquatic waterfowl —
usually sitting lazily on its butt — was the symbol of Linux).

Years of spinning such devotion into well-honed computer code has shaped
a development process that is gradual and evolutionary. The goal is to
fix problems and adapt to new hardware, while never causing
malfunctions. This idea is enshrined, somewhat antiseptically, in
Torvalds’s often-stated prohibition against what he calls “breaking user
space” — essentially, causing something that a user depends on to stop
working. But there is nothing antiseptic about his reaction when
somebody violates this cardinal rule.

One notorious exchange came in December 2012, when Torvalds publicly
raged to a regular Linux contributor who had proposed a flawed patch:
“WE DO NOT BREAK USERSPACE! Seriously. How hard is this rule to
understand? We particularly don’t break user space with TOTAL CRAP. I’m
angry, because your whole email was so _horribly_ wrong, and the patch
that broke things was so obviously crap.”

Torvalds sometimes expresses regret about his rhetorical excesses, but
the emotion that boils up in these moments is unmistakably real, fueled
by his fierce sense of guardianship over Linux.

The effect of Torvalds’s approach to managing the kernel — defensive,
gradualist, sometimes cranky — chilled debate about the security of
Linux even as it became a bigger, richer target for hackers. The result,
critics argue, is that while Linux in its early days was widely
considered a safer choice than Windows or other commercial operating
systems, the edge has dwindled and perhaps disappeared.

“While I don’t think that the Linux kernel has a terrible track record,
it’s certainly much worse than a lot of people would like it to be,”
said Matthew Garrett, principal security engineer for CoreOS, a San
Francisco company that produces an operating system based on Linux. At a
time when research into protecting software has grown increasingly
sophisticated, Garrett said, “very little of that research has been
incorporated into Linux.”

Versions of Linux have proved vulnerable to serious bugs in recent
years. AshleyMadison.com, the Web site that facilitates extramarital
affairs and suffered an embarrassing data breach in July, was reportedly
running Linux on its servers, as do many companies.

Those problems did not involve the kernel itself, but experts say the
kernel has become a popular target for hackers building “botnets,” giant
networks of computers that can be organized to initiate cyberattacks.
Experts also say that government spies — and the companies that sell
them surveillance tools — have turned their attention to the kernel as
Linux has spread.

The Security Intelligence Response Team for Akamai, a leading Internet
content delivery company, spoke bluntly on the rising vulnerability of
Linux in September when it announced the discovery of a massive botnet
that attacked up to 20 targets worldwide each day.

“A decade ago, Linux was seen as the more secure alternative to Windows
environments, which suffered the lion’s share of attacks at the time,”
Akamai’s security team wrote. But the sharply rising popularity of Linux
has meant “the potential opportunity and rewards for criminals has also
grown. Attackers will continue to evolve their tactics and tools and
security professionals should continue to harden their Linux based
systems accordingly.”

But harden how?

Ultimate attack surface

Even if Torvalds originally considered Linux a hobby, others saw gold.
Red Hat, a North Carolina company, released a version that became widely
deployed across corporate America and at many government agencies. A
South African businessman released Ubuntu, a popular desktop version of
Linux, in 2004. Traditional tech giants — IBM, Intel, Oracle — also made
big bets on Linux.

As Linux took off, Torvalds took something of a detour, leaving Finland
with his wife and first child in 1997 to work for a Silicon Valley
start-up. But he never gave up control of Linux and, in 2003, Torvalds
joined an Oregon-based nonprofit group that later merged with another
organization to become the Linux Foundation, which promotes the overall
development of the operating system.

(Torvalds also was granted stock options by Red Hat and one other
company selling Linux products, making him comfortable enough to pay
cash for a new house but not nearly as rich as Gates or other top tech
executives.)

The rising popularity of the operating system sparked efforts to toughen
its defenses. Companies that sold versions of Linux had security teams
add protections. Even the U.S. government, which has adopted Linux on
many of its computers, had the NSA develop advanced security features,
called SELinux, making the operating system more suitable for sensitive
work. (This was a defensive effort, say security experts, not part of
the NSA’s spying mission.)

The problem, as critics pointed out, was that these protections relied
on building walls around the operating system that, however high or
thick, could not possibly stop all comers. Those who penetrated gained
control of the Linux kernel itself, meaning the hackers could make a
compromised computer do anything they wanted — even if every other piece
of software on the machine was flawlessly protected. According to
veteran security engineer Kees Cook, this made the Linux kernel “the
ultimate attack surface.”

“Vulnerabilities in the kernel generally meant that an attacker with
access to a flawed kernel interface” — meaning a bug in the code —
“could bypass nearly every other security policy in place and take total
control of the system,” said Cook, who from 2006 to 2011 worked for
Canonical, which supported the Ubuntu version of Linux, and later joined
Google to work on kernel security.

Another expert, Brad Spengler of Grsecurity, used satire to make a
similar point in 2009, circulating a spoof of an illustration that had
been used in promotional material for SELinux. The original version
showed the kernel wrapped in protective layers that repelled attacks,
but the spoof overlaid images of “Sesame Street” characters happily
getting through these layers to menace the kernel. Ernie, Bert, Elmo,
Oscar the Grouch and the Cookie Monster represented “Blackhats with
kernel exploits,” the text read, meaning malicious hackers armed with
the computer bugs that offered a way past even the heaviest defenses.

Spengler later acknowledged that the spoof was “childish” but said it
“at least was more accurate” than the original diagram. To drive the
point home, he soon demonstrated how nearly a dozen known Linux coding
bugs could be exploited by malicious hackers to defeat external defenses
and take control of the kernel.

The response from Torvalds to such concerns did little to calm Spengler
or other critics. In an era when software makers increasingly were
candid about security flaws, issuing alerts that detailed problems and
explicitly urged people to install safer updates, Torvalds had a
different approach. In messages that accompanied each new version of the
Linux kernel, he described various improvements but would not call
attention to the ones that fixed security problems.

This frustrated security experts who saw transparency as a key part of
their mission. They reasoned that if a software maker knew about a bug,
then malicious hackers almost certainly did, too, and had been
exploiting it for months or even years. Failing to warn users directly
and forcefully made it harder for them to protect themselves.

Torvalds, however, has held his ground on this issue. He knew there were
countless versions of Linux running across the world and that weeks or
months often passed before updates reached individual machines. Publicly
revealing details about computer bugs — even if fixed in the latest
release — gave an edge to malicious hackers until the software fixes
arrived, he believed.

Torvalds also resisted suggestions that security deserved a special
place in the hierarchy of concerns faced by software makers. All flaws,
in his view, were equally serious. This attitude was enshrined in a
public posting in July 2008 that said: “I personally consider security
bugs to be just ‘normal bugs.’ I don’t cover them up, but I also don’t
have any reason what-so-ever to think it’s a good idea to track them and
announce them as something special.”

This comment — often recalled in shorthand as Torvalds’s declaration
that “bugs are just bugs” — is the line most often quoted by his critics
as they seek to explain what they consider a persistent, almost willful
tone-deafness on security. These experts say that although most bugs are
mere glitches that might cause a function to fail or a program to crash,
others are far more serious, offering malicious hackers an opening to
take total control of computers.

Those who specialize in security think in terms of categories of bugs.
Each one is a cousin of others, some known, some not yet discovered,
based on which functions they exploit. By studying each new one
carefully, these experts say it is possible to defeat entire classes of
bugs with a single fix.

But in his recent interview with The Washington Post, Torvalds rejected
the notion that bugs could be usefully sorted into categories.

“I refuse to waste a second of my life — or any other developer’s life —
trying to classify something that can’t be classified,” he said.

Rather than trying to create protections against “classes” of bugs,
Torvalds hopes to inspire better coding in general. “Well-written code
just doesn’t have a lot of special cases. It just does the right thing. 
. . . It just works in all situations.”

As for the exceptions, Torvalds shrugs. “Sometimes reality bites you in
the ass. Sometimes it’s just bad coding.”
Linus Torvalds, speaking at a conference in San Jose in 1999, originally
considered Linux to be a hobby. He moved to the United States from
Finland in 1997 after the operating system took off. (Lou Dematteis/Reuters)
Oracle chief executive Larry Ellison speaks at the 2006 Oracle OpenWorld
conference in San Francisco. Linux's open-source nature helped drive
growth as users tailored it for their needs. (Justin Sullivan/Getty Images)
The Cassandras

There has been a recurring subplot in the history of the online world:
For every advance, every thrilling new vista of possibility, there are
those who warn of dangers lurking in shadows ahead. To borrow from Greek
mythology, they are the Cassandras — often right in their prophecies,
yet generally ignored until disaster actually arrives.

The leading Cassandra in the Linux story has been Spengler, whose
critique of SELinux featured malevolent “Sesame Street” characters in
2009. He and a pair of collaborators, who worked for an affiliated
project called the PaX Team, had over several years developed patches
that dramatically hardened Linux. The best known of these techniques,
called address space layout randomization, reshuffled each computer’s
memory regularly. So even when hackers attempted to penetrate a system,
it was difficult to steal files or implant malicious code.

Despite providing a steady supply of defensive innovations, Spengler did
not become a popular figure within the upper reaches of the Linux
community, where he was seen as extreme in his views and sometimes
brittle in his manner. Plus, the Grsecurity and PaX patches, although
universally regarded as cutting-edge security measures, can slow
computer performance. Some also caused some features to perform less
effectively, violating Torvalds’s cardinal rule against “breaking user
space.”

Torvalds said recently of Spengler, “He’s one of the crazy security
people, no doubt about it, and so we’ve butted heads.”

He added that Spengler “is somebody I respect from a technical
standpoint,” but a split emerged that was philosophical and, eventually,
personal.

Torvalds was happy to let Spengler’s project toil on the fringes of a
sprawling Linux empire, but Torvalds showed little interest in
overhauling the kernel itself to address complaints from the security
community, especially if that meant exacting a significant price in
operating system performance.

“The market for that is pretty small in the end,” he later said of
Spengler’s project. “Most people don’t want the Grsecurity system.”

The limited consumer demand for security was not news to anybody who
worked in the field. Spengler often lamented how, as Linux spawned a
multibillion-dollar industry, he and his colleagues struggled to raise
enough in donations to underwrite their work.

“People don’t really care that much,” Spengler later said. “All of the
incentives are totally backward, and the money isn’t going where it’s
supposed to. The problem is just going to perpetuate itself.”

Because the Linux kernel is not produced by a business, it does not
respond to market conditions in a conventional way, but it is
unquestionably shaped by incentives — and, most of all, by Torvalds’s
priorities.

To carry out this vision, Torvalds has surrounded himself with dozens of
code “maintainers,” each of whom helps manage different elements of the
operating system. Anyone with an idea for improving Linux can craft the
relevant code and submit it to a maintainer, who vets each proposal
before sending the best ones upward to Torvalds.

From his home office above a three-car garage, Torvalds then approves —
and occasionally rejects — the changes submitted by the maintainers and
consolidates them before releasing the next version. Each new release
typically affects hundreds of thousands of lines of code, and each
change carries the risk of creating new bugs.

Although they once worked largely as volunteers, top maintainers today
typically have day jobs with tech companies that have a stake in the
growth of the operating system and pay salaries to developers to support
that common goal. But the Linux development process remains
decentralized, relying heavily on the individual interests and initiative.

Even many Linux enthusiasts see a problem with this from a security
perspective: There is no systemic mechanism for identifying and
remedying problems before hackers discover them, or for incorporating
the latest advances in defensive technologies. And there is no chief
security officer for the Linux kernel.

“Security is an easy problem to ignore, and maybe everyone thinks
somebody else should do it,” said Andrew Lutomirski, a maintainer for
part of the Linux kernel and an advocate for introducing better defenses
overall. “There certainly are people who have security as a much higher
priority than Linus Torvalds does.”

Spengler’s quest to improve overall Linux security peaked in 2010, when
he spoke at a Linux conference in Boston. He prepared an extensive
presentation titled “Linux Security in 10 Years” that detailed a range
of ideas for keeping the kernel safe even when hacks inevitably happened.

The proposals seemed so urgent to Spengler that he expected to see top
Linux maintainers, and possibly even Torvalds, in the audience. But when
he looked out across the half-empty room, Spengler saw none of them.
They were all off at other meetings.

“These guys are just working on things that they’re interested in, and,
for most of them, what they’re interested in is not security,” Spengler
said recently. “My feeling with Linux is that they still treat security
as a kind of nuisance thing.”

“My feeling with Linux is that they still treat security as a kind of
nuisance thing,” says computer security expert Brad Spengler, at his
home in Lancaster, Pa., of Linux creator Linus Torvalds and top Linux
maintainers. (Bill O'Leary/The Washington Post)
Signs of trouble

In the years since Spengler and others began warning about the security
of Linux, it has triumphed in the marketplace. Google released its first
version of the Android mobile operating system, which is based on Linux,
in 2007, allowing Torvalds’s work to reach hundreds of millions of
smartphones each year. Google also made the kernel the basis of Chrome
OS, which is used in an increasingly popular category of cloud-based
computers called Chromebooks.

Companies building the so-called Internet of Things — a massive universe
including objects as diverse as online thermostats, heart-rate monitors
and in-flight entertainment systems — also came to prefer Linux, which
requires no fees that might drain away profits.

Those worried about security arguably have bigger problems than Linux,
at least for now. Hackers are more likely to prey upon Oracle’s Java and
Adobe’s Flash and Acrobat. But while many older, vulnerable pieces of
software are being phased out, Linux is conquering new computing worlds.

As the operating system explodes in popularity, the debate over security
has begun drawing attention beyond the world of Linux insiders. Sergey
Bratus, as associate professor of computer science at Dartmouth College,
argues that the kernel should be overhauled to streamline the code and
to integrate the type of security features long advocated for by
Spengler and other critics — even if the features slow computers down.

“In a device that I trust my life to, I would prefer this,” Bratus said.

The most famous overhaul in software history came in 2002, when Gates
ordered engineers at Microsoft to make security their top priority, a
process that took several years and helped the famously hackable staples
of that company’s lineup to become considerably safer.

The security situation with Linux is not nearly so dire as it was for
Microsoft in 2002. It’s also harder to see how such an overhaul could
happen for an open-source project.

“Linux cannot just be turned around by a memo from Linus. He’s not Bill
Gates,” Bratus said. “But a culture change is definitely needed before
we start relying on these systems for everything.”

The Linux Foundation did suffer an embarrassing hack in 2011. More
recently, in 2014, Linux devotees were unhappy to discover that an
Italian surveillance company called Hacking Team had swiftly turned a
Linux exploit known as “towelroot” into a skeleton key capable of
gaining access to hundreds of millions of Android phones. This allowed
Hacking Team to turn Android devices into powerful spying tools —
capable of tracking targets, recording their conversations, rifling
through their files and even taking pictures of them — on behalf of
customers that included some of the world’s most repressive governments.

“It works :),” wrote one Hacking Team developer to another in an e-mail
about towelroot, according to a trove published by WikiLeaks. “Good job,
thanks!”

The security stakes for the tech industry were underscored in the
keynote address at an August summit on Linux security that pointedly
compared the blinkered attitude of software makers today to that of the
automobile industry in the 1960s, when cars functioned well but failed
to protect people during unforeseen events such as crashes — leading
directly to unnecessary suffering and death.

“Let’s not take 50 years to get to the point where computing is fun,
powerful and a lot less likely to maim you when you make a mistake,”
concluded the keynote speaker, Konstantin Ryabitsev, who manages
computer systems for the Linux Foundation.

IBM and Citizen unveil the WatchPad, an early smartwatch that ran on the
Linux operating system, in Tokyo in 2001. (Yoshikazu Tsuno/Agence
France-Presse via Getty Images)
‘Dodo birds had it coming’

The Cassandra myth reached its tragic climax when she warned the Trojans
that a giant wooden horse on their shores — supposedly a gift of
surrender after a long siege — actually was filled with Greek warriors
who soon would emerge to destroy Troy. The Trojans laughed and ridiculed
Cassandra. They realized their error when it was too late.

In the days after Ryabitsev gave his August keynote address suggesting
that software makers should rethink how they approach security, several
Linux maintainers exchanged messages on a public mailing list about the
possibility of revisiting some of the issues long raised by Spengler and
other critics.

“We have some measures in place, although we are really not doing
everything we can,” wrote James Morris, maintainer of ­Linux’s exterior
defenses against attackers. As evidence of his concern, Morris cited
occasions when bugs are discovered that are thwarted by Grsecurity —
Spengler’s patches — but not the main kernel released by Torvalds.

Spengler’s name soon came up explicitly in the discussion, although
participants correctly guessed that he had little interest in taking
part in such an effort now. (“I already did it in 2010,” he said in an
interview afterward. “It’s kind of annoying that nothing came of it at
the time. . . . I feel it would be better if they came up with their own
ideas.”)

Among those who were part of the discussion was Kees Cook, the Linux
security engineer who now works for Google. He, too, recalled Spengler’s
call to action in 2010. Cook said there have been improvements since
then — what he called “the low-hanging fruit” — but not enough.

“We’re five years into that list, and we’ve only scratched the surface,”
said Cook, who in addition to his work for Google is a maintainer for
Linux and part of a kernel security response team. “There is not the
cultural shift I’d like to see.”

Yet Cook and others say that the chances of a major reconsideration of
kernel security may now be better than ever. Edward Snowden’s
revelations about the extent of government spying — and about how the
NSA took advantage of security weaknesses that experts often knew about
but had failed to get fixed — have alarmed many in the tech community.
So have the recent rash of high-profile hacks, including the massive
pilfering of personal data from the U.S. government computers at the
Office of Personnel Management.

“Given some of the evidence of the widespread security problems, it’s a
little easier to introduce the topic again,” Morris said in an
interview. “Now that we’re looking at literally billions of Linux
systems out there, I think people are starting to wake up.”

The online discussion sparked by Morris in August has produced at least
one tangible result: At the annual Linux Kernel Summit in Seoul last
week, he and Cook gave a presentation that echoed many of Spengler’s
points from 2010 — only the list of problems needing serious attention
had doubled, from six to 12. And this time, Torvalds and some of his top
deputies were there.

There was a revealing moment, however, when Cook raised the possibility
of adding an especially intrusive feature long offered by Grsecurity.
Torvalds immediately spoke up, saying this was “the kind of idea that
makes security people look crazy,” according to LWN.net, a site that
follows Linux issues.

Torvalds has often said — and reiterated after the meeting in Seoul —
that he is open to new kernel defenses if the cost in performance is
reasonable. But debate remains about what qualifies as “reasonable.”

Torvalds himself still instinctively resists anything smacking of a
dramatic overhaul, asking the world to trust the Linux development
model’s gradualist, evolutionary approach in which problems — and the
trouble that often results — lead to computer code continually improving.

“I don’t think you have an alternative,” Torvalds said in the interview
with The Post. “I don’t think you can design things better than they
evolve. . . . It really is working very well.”

And what, he was asked, of the inevitable costs of evolution? The entire
species, like the dodo bird, that have died off? Must progress come at
such a price?

Torvalds smiles again. “Dodo birds had it coming.”

But dodo birds, driven from existence after the arrival of humans ruined
their native island habitat, had little chance to protect themselves
from doom. What about the Trojans?
Credits
Story by Craig Timberg
Video by Jorge Ribas
Graphics by Lazaro Gamio
_______________________________________________
hangout mailing list
hangout-at-nylxs.com
http://www.nylxs.com/

  1. 2015-11-01 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] [dha-at-panix.com: [MEETING] November Social]
  2. 2015-11-02 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] Aviva's new baby
  3. 2015-11-02 einker <eminker-at-gmail.com> Re: [Hangout-NYLXS] Aviva's new baby
  4. 2015-11-02 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] IBM Linux mainframes
  5. 2015-11-02 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] the dangers of lip reading
  6. 2015-11-03 ruben safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] Fwd: JEWISH PROFESSOR HOUNDED AT CALIFORNIA
  7. 2015-11-03 Rick Moen <rick-at-linuxmafia.com> Re: [Hangout-NYLXS] Fwd: JEWISH PROFESSOR HOUNDED AT CALIFORNIA
  8. 2015-11-03 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] make a small killing in the market?
  9. 2015-11-03 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] Israel Tech Jobs
  10. 2015-11-03 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] more jobs
  11. 2015-11-03 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] UML software development and the team effort..
  12. 2015-11-03 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Re: [Hangout-NYLXS] Israel Tech Jobs
  13. 2015-11-03 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] New TV Set for sale
  14. 2015-11-04 ruben safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] openrc tips
  15. 2015-11-04 Ruben <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] AI work in NYC and the torch Project
  16. 2015-11-04 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] Fwd: Re: [Mailman-Users] 64 bit encoding
  17. 2015-11-05 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] Fwd: [Mailman-Users] 64 bit encoding
  18. 2015-11-05 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] Fwd: Re: [Mailman-Users] 64 bit encoding
  19. 2015-11-05 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] Fwd: Re: [Mailman-Users] 64 bit encoding
  20. 2015-11-05 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] Fwd: Re: [Mailman-Users] 64 bit encoding
  21. 2015-11-05 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] Fwd: Re: [Mailman-Users] 64 bit encoding
  22. 2015-11-05 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] Fwd: Re: [Mailman-Users] 64 bit encoding
  23. 2015-11-05 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] tip from craigslist
  24. 2015-11-05 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] Microsoft Linux with systemd is on the way
  25. 2015-11-05 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] Fun with FUN in the largest Washington Post Article
  26. 2015-11-05 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] UML
  27. 2015-11-06 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] Fwd: Re: [Mailman-Users] 64 bit encoding
  28. 2015-11-06 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] Fwd: Re: [Mailman-Users] 64 bit encoding
  29. 2015-11-06 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] Fwd: Re: [Mailman-Users] 64 bit encoding
  30. 2015-11-06 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] Fwd: Re: [Mailman-Users] 64 bit encoding
  31. 2015-11-06 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] Fwd: Re: [Mailman-Users] 64 bit encoding
  32. 2015-11-06 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] Fwd: Re: [Mailman-Users] 64 bit encoding
  33. 2015-11-06 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] Fwd: Re: [Mailman-Users] 64 bit encoding
  34. 2015-11-06 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] Fwd: Re: [Mailman-Users] 64 bit encoding
  35. 2015-11-06 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] mets mets mets
  36. 2015-11-06 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] This is not Van Gogh,
  37. 2015-11-07 Rick Moen <rick-at-linuxmafia.com> Re: [Hangout-NYLXS] Fun with FUN in the largest Washington Post
  38. 2015-11-08 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] Movie of the week
  39. 2015-11-08 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] ransomware - attacking apache
  40. 2015-11-08 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [Hangout-NYLXS] Fun with FUD in the largest Washington Post
  41. 2015-11-08 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] Who is paying for what drugs
  42. 2015-11-08 Rick Moen <rick-at-linuxmafia.com> Re: [Hangout-NYLXS] Fun with FUD in the largest Washington Post
  43. 2015-11-08 Rick Moen <rick-at-linuxmafia.com> Re: [Hangout-NYLXS] ransomware - attacking apache
  44. 2015-11-08 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Re: [Hangout-NYLXS] ransomware - attacking apache
  45. 2015-11-08 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Re: [Hangout-NYLXS] ransomware - attacking apache
  46. 2015-11-08 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Re: [Hangout-NYLXS] Fun with FUD in the largest Washington Post
  47. 2015-11-08 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] Cruise to Albany up the Hudson
  48. 2015-11-08 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Re: [Hangout-NYLXS] Fun with FUD in the largest Washington Post
  49. 2015-11-08 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Re: [Hangout-NYLXS] Fun with FUD in the largest Washington Post
  50. 2015-11-08 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Re: [Hangout-NYLXS] Fun with FUD in the largest Washington Post
  51. 2015-11-08 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Re: [Hangout-NYLXS] Fun with FUD in the largest Washington Post
  52. 2015-11-08 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Re: [Hangout-NYLXS] Fun with FUD in the largest Washington Post
  53. 2015-11-08 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] Libreplanet in Boston Next Year
  54. 2015-11-08 Rick Moen <rick-at-linuxmafia.com> Re: [Hangout-NYLXS] ransomware - attacking apache
  55. 2015-11-08 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] Open for Comments
  56. 2015-11-09 Rick Moen <rick-at-linuxmafia.com> Re: [Hangout-NYLXS] Fun with FUD in the largest Washington Post
  57. 2015-11-09 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] The race is on to replace your linux toolkit
  58. 2015-11-09 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Re: [Hangout-NYLXS] ransomware - attacking apache
  59. 2015-11-09 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Re: [Hangout-NYLXS] ransomware - attacking apache
  60. 2015-11-09 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] Decent Linux Podcast this week
  61. 2015-11-09 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] True Love
  62. 2015-11-09 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] Browser security and EFF
  63. 2015-11-09 Rick Moen <rick-at-linuxmafia.com> Re: [Hangout-NYLXS] ransomware - attacking apache
  64. 2015-11-09 Rick Moen <rick-at-linuxmafia.com> Re: [Hangout-NYLXS] ransomware - attacking apache
  65. 2015-11-09 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Re: [Hangout-NYLXS] ransomware - attacking apache
  66. 2015-11-09 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [Hangout-NYLXS] ransomware - attacking apache
  67. 2015-11-09 Rick Moen <rick-at-linuxmafia.com> Re: [Hangout-NYLXS] ransomware - attacking apache
  68. 2015-11-09 Ruben <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Re: [Hangout-NYLXS] ransomware - attacking apache
  69. 2015-11-09 Ruben <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] serious iphone/objectivec problems
  70. 2015-11-09 Ruben <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Re: [Hangout-NYLXS] serious iphone/objectivec problems
  71. 2015-11-09 Ruben <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Re: [Hangout-NYLXS] serious iphone/objectivec problems
  72. 2015-11-09 Rick Moen <rick-at-linuxmafia.com> Re: [Hangout-NYLXS] ransomware - attacking apache
  73. 2015-11-10 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] The Technology of Wishing
  74. 2015-11-10 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] another time and place
  75. 2015-11-10 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] The importance and moral obligation to archive
  76. 2015-11-10 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] message from Jesus
  77. 2015-11-10 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] everything in the story has to be exactly on time
  78. 2015-11-13 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] RMS on Education
  79. 2015-11-14 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] situation worsens
  80. 2015-11-14 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] Who snoops on Who
  81. 2015-11-14 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] Salman Rushdie
  82. 2015-11-14 Ruben Safir <ruben.safir-at-my.liu.edu> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] Ayaan Hirsi Ali on Islam
  83. 2015-11-15 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] [jkeen-at-verizon.net: ny.pm technical meeting on
  84. 2015-11-15 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] Quick Cruise up the Hudson with the Smithsonian
  85. 2015-11-15 From: "ballantrae101 ." <ronny.coder-at-gmail.com> Re: [Hangout-NYLXS] Quick Cruise up the Hudson with the Smithsonian
  86. 2015-11-15 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] Movie of the Week
  87. 2015-11-15 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] FWIW for Michael et al
  88. 2015-11-16 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] jobs
  89. 2015-11-16 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] jobs followup
  90. 2015-11-16 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [Hangout-NYLXS] ransomware - attacking apache
  91. 2015-11-16 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] windows 3.1
  92. 2015-11-16 Rick Moen <rick-at-linuxmafia.com> Re: [Hangout-NYLXS] ransomware - attacking apache
  93. 2015-11-16 Rick Moen <rick-at-linuxmafia.com> Re: [Hangout-NYLXS] windows 3.1
  94. 2015-11-16 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [Hangout-NYLXS] windows 3.1
  95. 2015-11-17 Rick Moen <rick-at-linuxmafia.com> Re: [Hangout-NYLXS] windows 3.1
  96. 2015-11-17 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [Hangout-NYLXS] [conspire] CIA chief Brennan hints new gov't
  97. 2015-11-17 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] could be done better if it was planned
  98. 2015-11-17 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] Bad Debt Collectors and Their Prey
  99. 2015-11-18 Paul Robert Marino <prmarino1-at-gmail.com> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] permissions in Debian packages?
  100. 2015-11-18 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [Hangout-NYLXS] permissions in Debian packages?
  101. 2015-11-19 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] ms linux continues
  102. 2015-11-19 prmarino1-at-gmail.com Re: [Hangout-NYLXS] ms linux continues
  103. 2015-11-19 Chris Knadle <Chris.Knadle-at-coredump.us> Re: [Hangout-NYLXS] permissions in Debian packages?
  104. 2015-11-19 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Re: [Hangout-NYLXS] ms linux continues
  105. 2015-11-19 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] Clips Notes
  106. 2015-11-19 prmarino1-at-gmail.com Re: [Hangout-NYLXS] permissions in Debian packages?
  107. 2015-11-19 prmarino1-at-gmail.com Re: [Hangout-NYLXS] permissions in Debian packages?
  108. 2015-11-20 Chris Knadle <Chris.Knadle-at-coredump.us> Re: [Hangout-NYLXS] permissions in Debian packages?
  109. 2015-11-20 Ruben Safir <ruben.safir-at-my.liu.edu> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] Fwd: Re: Handling dates and Time
  110. 2015-11-20 Ruben Safir <ruben.safir-at-my.liu.edu> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] Fwd: Re: Handling dates and Time
  111. 2015-11-20 Elfen Magix <elfen_magix-at-yahoo.com> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] Could NYLXS, CCNY. LIU,
  112. 2015-11-20 Ruben <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Re: [Hangout-NYLXS] Could NYLXS, CCNY. LIU,
  113. 2015-11-20 Ruben Safir <ruben.safir-at-my.liu.edu> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] Fwd: Re: eudyptula challenge,
  114. 2015-11-20 Elfen Magix <elfen_magix-at-yahoo.com> Re: [Hangout-NYLXS] Could NYLXS, CCNY. LIU,
  115. 2015-11-21 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] Wastson on SuSE
  116. 2015-11-21 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] Wastson on SuSE
  117. 2015-11-21 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [Hangout-NYLXS] Movie of the Week
  118. 2015-11-21 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [Hangout-NYLXS] Movie of the Week
  119. 2015-11-21 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] Artificial Intelligence and Forward Chaining
  120. 2015-11-22 Ruben Safir <ruben.safir-at-my.liu.edu> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] Linux Job
  121. 2015-11-22 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] another job
  122. 2015-11-22 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] PHP
  123. 2015-11-23 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] this is the funiest thing Robin Williams never said
  124. 2015-11-24 Rick Moen <rick-at-linuxmafia.com> Re: [Hangout-NYLXS] this is the funiest thing Robin Williams never
  125. 2015-11-24 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] Letters of Recommendation
  126. 2015-11-24 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] [noreply-at-comsoc.org: New Course on Big Data 5-6
  127. 2015-11-24 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] Firefox marketing on Flatbush Avenue
  128. 2015-11-24 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] Cheapbytes has been slacking
  129. 2015-11-24 Rick Moen <rick-at-linuxmafia.com> Re: [Hangout-NYLXS] Cheapbytes has been slacking
  130. 2015-11-24 Ruben Safir <ruben.safir-at-my.liu.edu> Re: [Hangout-NYLXS] Cheapbytes has been slacking
  131. 2015-11-24 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] in memorial
  132. 2015-11-25 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] security and tracking in the land of terrorism
  133. 2015-11-25 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] just a plug for our friend Amy
  134. 2015-11-25 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] private reusable rocket is a success
  135. 2015-11-25 Rick Moen <rick-at-linuxmafia.com> Re: [Hangout-NYLXS] Cheapbytes has been slacking
  136. 2015-11-25 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [Hangout-NYLXS] [conspire] CIA chief Brennan hints new gov't
  137. 2015-11-26 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] Middle east Analysis
  138. 2015-11-26 Ruben Safir <ruben.safir-at-my.liu.edu> Re: [Hangout-NYLXS] [conspire] CIA chief Brennan hints new gov't
  139. 2015-11-26 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] Thanksgiving Present
  140. 2015-11-26 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [Hangout-NYLXS] [conspire] CIA chief Brennan hints new gov't
  141. 2015-11-26 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] A message for Thanksgiving
  142. 2015-11-26 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] Eight bucks, no kidding!
  143. 2015-11-26 Rick Moen <rick-at-linuxmafia.com> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] Five bucks, no kidding!
  144. 2015-11-26 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] Compiler Theory Class
  145. 2015-11-27 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] Nice Jewish Girl
  146. 2015-11-27 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] Larry Wall on Haskell and Java
  147. 2015-11-27 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] Apollo
  148. 2015-11-27 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] Sil;licon Valley Republicans
  149. 2015-11-27 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] new way to get interviews only through skype ??
  150. 2015-11-27 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] The New Linux Journal in an app happy world
  151. 2015-11-27 Paul Robert Marino <prmarino1-at-gmail.com> Re: [Hangout-NYLXS] Cheapbytes has been slacking
  152. 2015-11-27 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [Hangout-NYLXS] Five bucks, no kidding!
  153. 2015-11-27 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] Fwd: Re: Systems Administrator Position
  154. 2015-11-27 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Re: [Hangout-NYLXS] Cheapbytes has been slacking
  155. 2015-11-27 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] losing the internet
  156. 2015-11-27 prmarino1-at-gmail.com Re: [Hangout-NYLXS] Cheapbytes has been slacking
  157. 2015-11-27 Elfen Magix <elfen_magix-at-yahoo.com> Re: [Hangout-NYLXS] Five bucks, no kidding!
  158. 2015-11-28 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [Hangout-NYLXS] The New Linux Journal in an app happy world
  159. 2015-11-28 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [Hangout-NYLXS] The New Linux Journal in an app happy world
  160. 2015-11-28 Rick Moen <rick-at-linuxmafia.com> Re: [Hangout-NYLXS] losing the internet
  161. 2015-11-28 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] Decent Vorbis Radio
  162. 2015-11-28 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] Movie of the week
  163. 2015-11-29 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [Hangout-NYLXS] 30 thousand bucks, no kidding!
  164. 2015-11-30 From: "Mancini, Sabin (DFS)" <Sabin.Mancini-at-dfs.ny.gov> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] ???? = question ? So what is the question (s) ?
  165. 2015-11-30 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] Domination

NYLXS are Do'ers and the first step of Doing is Joining! Join NYLXS and make a difference in your community today!