MESSAGE
| DATE | 2019-10-29 |
| FROM | Samuel Thibault
|
| SUBJECT | Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] gnu-misc-discuss@gnu.org is premoderated
|
Hello,
I just don't have any time to continue such kind of discussion with
such flurry of mail which ended up being moderated out (I wonder who is
over-reacting here...). Just writing down a few points before moving on
to other matters.
Ruben Safir, le mar. 29 oct. 2019 11:43:55 -0400, a ecrit:
> On 10/29/19 5:31 AM, Mark Wielaard wrote:
> > ssume other participants are posting in good faith,
>
> But they don't. People are not actors in good faith, espeically in this
> case.
If you knew me, you'd know that I never hide agendas.
Jean Louis, le mar. 29 oct. 2019 11:58:33 +0530, a ecrit:
> And that is exactly what is happening by group of people who demand
> that by reason of few people feeling "offended" whole organization
> shall go down.
What is asked is *not* to defame RMS and put the organization down. It
is to enhance GNU so it can better include people. If GNU doesn't want
to be improved, then so be it, too bad for it, it'll continue not to
attract some briliant people who could have helped it.
> You are trying to make something more out of the joke than it is. But
> it is not, it is just a joke.
[...]
> Hate speech is something different. I have got impression that you
> wish to say that hate speech is wrong. And I agree with you, hate
> speech is wrong. But jokes are not hate speech.
Jokes do have side effects when they are made at the expense of other
people, even if that was not the intent. I completely understand what
the virgin joke is _intended_ to be about, but the original version does
have strong side effects, even if it is not meant to be serious. The
current version is much less problematic.
> Did you ever consider what Richard did for community?
The post on the Guix blog started with that.
> That does not justify destruction of a community. Please see:
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HR_uB3srI_0
[...]
> If you don't like comedian,
That is completely unrelated. A technical conference is not a comedy
show. I didn't say that the joke was wrong to say anywhere anytime. I
said it was *inappropriate*, i.e. not the place, not the time. I
discussed with my female colleagues about this joke at lunch today, they
made really bad faces.
> Look at these answers:
One should *not* have to learn such kind of things to be able to listen
about free software, only because there are inappropriate jokes in the
talk.
> it is not the GNU project, but offended person who need to learn how
> to behave in a group.
They will rather just go away, and thus the group will have excluded
them. Probably not for only one joke, but that was only one example. And
very fact that people stand by the joke will make them rather leave that
stay and have to fight yet once more.
[...]
> And Unix always had jokes. It is part of programmer's culture.
[...]
> Removing jokes from GNU does not make fun any more.
Don't take me wrong, I do like jokes and very welcome them anywhere,
including in free software talks. But again, these do *not* have to be
at the expense of somebody to be funny.
> I told you that I have asked a professor in Netherlands to explain me
> why there are so few women in computer class, the reason is cultural,
> they are told as children to become mommies, nurses, and similar. They
> are not told to program.
Sure, that's a huge part of the problem which I know all too well for
being responsible for the first year at university here. But unwelcoming
communities is _also_ part of the problem, even if for a much smaller
part. Compare the percentage of women in computer science university,
and the percentage of women in GNU projects. That will tell you how much
GNU also has to consider the question, and not sweep it away.
Samuel
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