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DATE 2008-06-01

HANGOUT

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MESSAGE
DATE 2008-06-29
FROM Ruben Safir
SUBJECT Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] C Programing Workshop
From lest-hangout-at-mrbrklyn.com Sun Jun 29 20:56:11 2008
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Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2008 20:56:04 -0400
From: Ruben Safir
To: hangout-at-mrbrklyn.com
Subject: Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] C Programing Workshop
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On Sun, Jun 29, 2008 at 08:36:20PM -0400, Ronny Abraham wrote:
> Ruben, just trust me on this enough to download the book and read a
> chapter. You'll see exactly what I mean if you do that. It's worth
> it. I'm not steering you wrong on this. And if I am, you'll only end
> up losing 20 minutes of your life.
>
> autoconf would be great! That alone would be enough to get me to sign
> up. The only reason I didn't mention it, is because I didn't think
> you'd be willing to deal with it.
>
> As far as C is concerned, it seems more reasonable to me to stick with
> the Kernigan and Ritchie book, as that does a great job and it's the
> standard everyone uses anyway. But any book can get the job done
> really. C is a workhorse and pretty simple to figure out.
>

The King book is actually very superior to K&R. It teaches C concepts
exceptionally well. It's just damn expensive. I can always tell someone
who learned C from K&R. They tend to do some weird things.

> The Strousberg text is a massive pain in the ass to deal with. I
> know, they tried using it at NYU and everyone, I mean EVERY ONE of the
> students bought another text to deal with the course (including me).
> No one understood what the hell the Professor teaching the course was
> saying, and he was actually pretty damn good (he's the current head of
> the compsci grad division).

Was that Meltzer? What was his name?

> Of course, I hadn't heard of Eckel then,
> so I ended up making the grade without understanding a thing. Which
> is probably how everyone else did too.
>
> I think Strousberg is good if you have a pretty fair grasp of the
> language before you pick it up. Otherwise, it's useless.
>
> Compared to Python, or Scala, or Smalltalk, C++ is a horrible
> language.

You can make some serious money with Smalltalk if you know it.

> No question about it. But it definitely has it's uses and
> since it's very popular it's well worth learning.
>
> However, I don't agree with your objections to OO. Building a thing
> in chunks that interact seems to me to be the basis of OO. It works
> and when it's done right it makes things a lot clearer which is all I
> really care about.
>

Debugging simplifiation and reuse is the main goal OO or any other programming format.
I thnk your agreeing with me, not disagreeing. But if you jump straight to OO programming
without the grounding to procedureal programing, you won't have a damn clue what your code
does, let alone how it affects security or what it does in gdb.

Remember -> In, Out, Side Affect, Repeat.....

Its the Universal Law.

Ruben

> On Sun, Jun 29, 2008 at 3:44 PM, Ruben Safir wrote:
> > On Sun, Jun 29, 2008 at 02:47:24PM -0400, Ronny Abraham wrote:
> >> If you're going to teach a class, I think it's important to also go
> >> into makefiles. Personally, I hate makefiles and prefer to use scons
> >> (it's python based and a hell of a lot simpler). Nevertheless, you
> >> need to know how makefiles work if you want to do anything usefull
> >> with the majority of projects out there. I would sign up for a class
> >> if you intend to explore that aspect.
> >>
> >
> >
> > Yeah, I agree. We should conver autoconf and make at some point.
> >
> >> Also, if you are going to go into C++, it's better to stick with Bruce
> >> Eckels book Thinking
> >> in C++
It's downloadable and free (as in beer), so there is no
> >> reason not to use it. It's also the best book you are ever going to
> >> find on the language.
> >>
> >
> > We can use any book that you desire, but I'm going to stick with my text and
> > will refer to it. I'm not extremely happy with the text, but I have a head
> > start with it. I really was thinking of using the Strousberg tet.
> >
> >> He has a second volume covering the Standard Template Library, but
> >> unfortunately I never found the time to go through it.
> >>
> >> The thing that makes Eckel stand out is that he explains why things
> >> are done in a certain way.
> >
> > For what it is worth, I believe the paragin for OO languages is sommewhat
> > contrite, and I'm intersted in why things are done in a certain way
> > only to the degree that things are made easier to debug and read...period.
> > I go over much of this conceptually in the advanced Perl class, but frankly
> > the OO guys are whacked. Squeezing out all proceduale code from a launguage
> > defies the basic logic of how computers work and makes for a lot of bad
> > code which is tough on y carpul tunnel syndrome.
> >
> >> And since he was on the standards board
> >> for 10 years, he also has no problem being open about what is wrong
> >> with the language.
> >>
> >
> > A lot is wrong with C++ and nearly every other language. C++ is famous for
> > making people unhappy, and so is c and LISP and Perl and any language that
> > has been around and used enough to bread contempt ;)
> >
> > Ruben
> >
> >> -ron
> >>
> >> On Sat, Jun 28, 2008 at 10:04 PM, Ruben Safir wrote:
> >> > The C programming language was invented side by side with Unix. The King text goes through
> >> > much of the history of the language. Here I'd like to make a few points both in the general
> >> > and specific to GNU/Linux as a platform for C development.
> >> >
> >> > Oxymoronic as it sounds C language is a bare bones specification without anything useful.
> >> > All it requires is the keyword main, which defines the root function that everything else
> >> > is piled into. Everything that C does is imported from external libraries. These libraries
> >> > are defined, in the simplist case, on top of your program.
> >> >
> >> > For example, on page 10 of the King book is the following program:
> >> >
> >> > #include
> >> >
> >> > main(){
> >> > printf("To C, or not to C: that is the question \n");
> >> > }
> >> >
> >> > which was inherited from the K&R text. The first line defines the
> >> > library stdio.h which c is to import. The main keyword is present
> >> > (which defines the required function main() to be explained later,
> >> > and the function printf which is defined in the library stdio.h.
> >> >
> >> > Unlike programming languages such as Perl, Python and Rudy, C is a compiled
> >> > programming language. It needs a compiler to make a binary program that
> >> > can then be executed. The binary has machine like instructions which your
> >> > computer can directly understand. Unfortunately, your computer doesn't speak
> >> > English (or Spanish, Russian, Japanese, Manderin, Hebrew, or Udo). It speaks
> >> > binary. C is the interface between human language and machine code. The binaries
> >> > are very low level and C as a language, today, is considered to be very close to
> >> > the machine. You'd have to write programs in Assembly to get much close to your CPU.
> >> >
> >> > Therefor, you need a C compiler to translate your C Programming text into machine code.
> >> > At one time suc compilers were expensive and hard to get. Thanks to Richard Stallman and
> >> > friends, today we have compilers on almost every GNU based system. That compiler is called
> >> > gcc. Compilers do three things: Parse, compile and link.
> >> >
> >> > When you call:
> >> >
> >> > gcc file.c
> >> >
> >> > It loads file.c into the compiler. It then parses the programming you created and checks
> >> > for errors. It then analysis the symbols in your program and looks for their programming
> >> > definitions in the libraries that you call with #include. It then the different code
> >> > machine code peices it finds into a single binary.
> >> >
> >> > The gcc compiler is very complex and learning C includes learning much about the compiler
> >> > and also the debugger, called gdb. Both are documented with man pages, and have full books
> >> > which are available from the Free Software Foundation and worthy additions to your library.
> >> > Both are included in the NYLXS library as references.
> >> >
> >> > Any editor can be used to make C programs, but I strongly recommend learning either EMACS
> >> > or VI. EMACS has a GNU version, and VI has a version called VIM which can be downloaded and
> >> > used. I perfer the VIM editor and will use in in example and demonstrations. No editor
> >> > wars are needed here. I will say, however, if your using EMACS, then LEARN it. It is not
> >> > Microsoft Notepad.
> >> >
> >> > After editing this first program run the following command on the command line:
> >> > For this workshop, the "$" or "ruben-at-www2:~/cprog>" is the shell prompt. Your prompt
> >> > on the NYLXS server will look like the second example.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > $ gcc -Wall file1.c -o file1
> >> >
> >> > the output will look like this:
> >> > ruben-at-www2:~/cprog> gcc -Wall file1.c -o file1
> >> > file1.c:3: warning: return type defaults to `int'
> >> > file1.c: In function `main':
> >> > file1.c:5: warning: control reaches end of non-void function
> >> > ruben-at-www2:~/cprog>
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > The compiler gives you 3 warning messages. I won't go into them currently, but in a few
> >> > weeks it should make sense to you. We will, however, fix the warnings later. For now, if
> >> > you look at your directory
> >> >
> >> > ruben-at-www2:~/cprog> ls -l
> >> > total 12
> >> > -rwxr-xr-x 1 ruben staff 7041 2008-06-28 21:45 file1
> >> > -rw-r--r-- 1 ruben staff 86 2008-06-28 21:35 file1.c
> >> >
> >> > file1.c is the file we are editing. You see it has no permisions to be executed.
> >> > file1 is the new executable we created. In addition. you see that it is executable.
> >> > gcc makes it executable permisions for us in most systems. We run our new program
> >> > on the command line like this:
> >> >
> >> > ruben-at-www2:~/cprog> ./file1
> >> > To C, or not to C: that is the question
> >> >
> >> > The C language defines the function main() and not much else. However, it is defined
> >> > as a function that returns an integer. We didn't return anything. We can fix this with
> >> > a "return function".
> >> >
> >> > We return a 0 by convention unless we are trying to indicate an error or other message. We also
> >> > put the keyword 'int' infront of main which explicitly defines that main returns integers.
> >> >
> >> > Our program not looks like this:
> >> >
> >> > #include
> >> >
> >> > int main(){
> >> > printf("To C, or not to C: that is the question \n");
> >> > return 0;
> >> > }
> >> >
> >> > and when we compile:
> >> >
> >> > ruben-at-www2:~/cprog> gcc -Wall file2.c -o file2
> >> > ruben-at-www2:~/cprog>
> >> >
> >> > No warnings.
> >> >
> >> > and when we run it, it looks like this:
> >> >
> >> > ruben-at-www2:~/cprog> ./file2
> >> > To C, or not to C: that is the question
> >> > ruben-at-www2:~/cprog>
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > Next - Comments and C varriable basics.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > --
> >> > http://www.mrbrklyn.com - Interesting Stuff
> >> > http://www.nylxs.com - Leadership Development in Free Software
> >> >
> >> > So many immigrant groups have swept through our town that Brooklyn, like Atlantis, reaches mythological proportions in the mind of the world - RI Safir 1998
> >> >
> >> > http://fairuse.nylxs.com DRM is THEFT - We are the STAKEHOLDERS - RI Safir 2002
> >> >
> >> > "Yeah - I write Free Software...so SUE ME"
> >> >
> >> > "The tremendous problem we face is that we are becoming sharecroppers to our own cultural heritage -- we need the ability to participate in our own society."
> >> >
> >> > "> I'm an engineer. I choose the best tool for the job, politics be damned.<
> >> > You must be a stupid engineer then, because politcs and technology have been attached at the hip since the 1st dynasty in Ancient Egypt. I guess you missed that one."
> >> >
> >> > (c) Copyright for the Digital Millennium
> >> >
> >
> > --
> > http://www.mrbrklyn.com - Interesting Stuff
> > http://www.nylxs.com - Leadership Development in Free Software
> >
> > So many immigrant groups have swept through our town that Brooklyn, like Atlantis, reaches mythological proportions in the mind of the world - RI Safir 1998
> >
> > http://fairuse.nylxs.com DRM is THEFT - We are the STAKEHOLDERS - RI Safir 2002
> >
> > "Yeah - I write Free Software...so SUE ME"
> >
> > "The tremendous problem we face is that we are becoming sharecroppers to our own cultural heritage -- we need the ability to participate in our own society."
> >
> > "> I'm an engineer. I choose the best tool for the job, politics be damned.<
> > You must be a stupid engineer then, because politcs and technology have been attached at the hip since the 1st dynasty in Ancient Egypt. I guess you missed that one."
> >
> > (c) Copyright for the Digital Millennium
> >

--
http://www.mrbrklyn.com - Interesting Stuff
http://www.nylxs.com - Leadership Development in Free Software

So many immigrant groups have swept through our town that Brooklyn, like Atlantis, reaches mythological proportions in the mind of the world - RI Safir 1998

http://fairuse.nylxs.com DRM is THEFT - We are the STAKEHOLDERS - RI Safir 2002

"Yeah - I write Free Software...so SUE ME"

"The tremendous problem we face is that we are becoming sharecroppers to our own cultural heritage -- we need the ability to participate in our own society."

"> I'm an engineer. I choose the best tool for the job, politics be damned.<
You must be a stupid engineer then, because politcs and technology have been attached at the hip since the 1st dynasty in Ancient Egypt. I guess you missed that one."

© Copyright for the Digital Millennium

  1. 2008-06-03 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] [nyc-at-workatjelly.com: Jelly in Manhattan this Friday, 6/6]
  2. 2008-06-08 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Empathic Computing
  3. 2008-06-08 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] GMAIL - Free Software Models
  4. 2008-06-08 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Cellphone DO kill ....
  5. 2008-06-08 Michael L Richardson <mlr52-at-michaellrichardson.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Cellphone DO kill ....
  6. 2008-06-08 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Bloody Ugly
  7. 2008-06-12 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] [nyc-at-workatjelly.com: Jelly in Brooklyn this Friday, 6/13]
  8. 2008-06-12 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] [notification+zjaayj4y-at-facebookmail.com: "The Rooftop Films Summer Series: June Schedule" sent you a message on Facebook...]
  9. 2008-06-12 From: "armando fonseca" <afonsec2-at-gmail.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] armando fonseca wants to chat
  10. 2008-06-20 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] [KMalhotra-at-council.nyc.gov: Tech in Government Update]
  11. 2008-06-20 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] [meissner-at-suse.de: [security-announce] SUSE Security Announcement: evolution (SUSE-SA:2008:028)]
  12. 2008-06-20 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] [dplist-at-danielpipes.org: #862: Pipes argues "The Enemy Has a Name" in the Jer. Post]
  13. 2008-06-20 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] [meissner-at-suse.de: [security-announce] SUSE Security Summary Report SUSE-SR:2008:013]
  14. 2008-06-20 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] [meissner-at-suse.de: [security-announce] SUSE Security Announcement: Opera 9.50 (SUSE-SA:2008:029)]
  15. 2008-06-20 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] [chief-at-freesoftwaremagazine.com: [Fsm_newsletter] Free Software Magazine newsletter]
  16. 2008-06-20 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] [anthony.weiner-at-congressnewsletter.net: Reminder - Town Hall with Rep. Weiner]
  17. 2008-06-20 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Geek Dinosaur News
  18. 2008-06-20 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] More Geek stuff - 2000 year old Jew Tree's
  19. 2008-06-21 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] AP Copyright and Bloggers
  20. 2008-06-21 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Diamonds are a girls best friend
  21. 2008-06-22 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] [jays-at-panix.com: [nylug-talk] Sunday 22 June 2008 NYC Resistors: OLPC Hack Day]
  22. 2008-06-22 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Tea Lounge
  23. 2008-06-22 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Next NYLXS Meeting
  24. 2008-06-22 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] [ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com: [nylug-talk] Internships for Teens?]
  25. 2008-06-22 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] OLPC MS Spin
  26. 2008-06-23 From: "Michael L. Richardson" <mlr52-at-mycouponmagic.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Next NYLXS Meeting
  27. 2008-06-23 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] [catch152-at-gmail.com: Re; Signing up.]
  28. 2008-06-23 Amy Coleman <acoleman-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Next NYLXS Meeting
  29. 2008-06-23 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Some Brooklyn History with Photo's! Worth a look.
  30. 2008-06-24 Ron Guerin <ron-at-vnetworx.net> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Tea Lounge
  31. 2008-06-24 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] [nyc-at-workatjelly.com: Jelly in Brooklyn this Friday, 6/27]
  32. 2008-06-24 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Tea Lounge
  33. 2008-06-24 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] [Consultants1-at-cgt-consult.com: Open Jobs]
  34. 2008-06-24 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Data Recovery Tools
  35. 2008-06-26 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] News not getting enough press
  36. 2008-06-28 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Video Production
  37. 2008-06-28 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] The new DMCA
  38. 2008-06-28 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] On Line C, Perl and C++ Programming Work Shop
  39. 2008-06-28 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] C Programing Workshop
  40. 2008-06-29 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] [ivaldes-at-hal-pc.org: [Hardhats] Congress Health IT Bill and Cerner Lobbying]y
  41. 2008-06-29 From: "Ronny Abraham" <ronny.coder-at-gmail.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] C Programing Workshop
  42. 2008-06-29 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] C Programing Workshop
  43. 2008-06-29 From: "Ronny Abraham" <ronny.coder-at-gmail.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] C Programing Workshop
  44. 2008-06-29 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] C Programing Workshop
  45. 2008-06-29 From: "Michael L. Richardson" <mlr52-at-michaellrichardson.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Video Production
  46. 2008-06-29 email <ray-pub-at-rcn.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] C Programing Workshop
  47. 2008-06-29 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] C++ Workshop session 1
  48. 2008-06-30 From: "Ronny Abraham" <ronny.coder-at-gmail.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] C Programing Workshop
  49. 2008-06-30 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] C Programing Workshop
  50. 2008-06-30 swd <sderrick-at-optonline.net> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Need to get rid of a whole bunch of programming books. TALK ABOUT FREE
  51. 2008-06-30 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Need to get rid of a whole bunch of programming books. TALK ABOUT FREE SOFTWARE!!!
  52. 2008-06-30 From: "Tameek Henderson" <tameek-at-gmail.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Need to get rid of a whole bunch of programming books. TALK ABOUT FREE SOFTWARE!!!
  53. 2008-06-30 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Need to get rid of a whole bunch of programming books. TALK ABOUT FREE SOFTWARE!!!

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