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DATE 2016-09-01

HANGOUT

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Key: Value:

Key: Value:

MESSAGE
DATE 2016-09-07
FROM Ruben Safir
SUBJECT Re: [Hangout-NYLXS] All-Writ, the FBI and contempt of court
On 09/06/2016 11:07 PM, Rick Moen wrote:
> Quoting Ruben Safir (mrbrklyn-at-panix.com):
>
>> On 09/06/2016 09:02 PM, Ruben Safir wrote:
>>> has anyone followed the imprisonment and months long interment in
>>> Solitary Confinement of Francis Rawls, of Philadelphia? He is accused
>>> of watching child pornography and they are holding him in contempt of
>>> court because his systems are locked with cryptography.
>
> ^^^^
> Are you forwarding mail from your evil twin Ruben Safir?
>
> You did not bother to provide the news article, just the full text of an
> advocacy blog post. The interesting legal question is: What evidence
> did prosecutors provide to the judge to support application of the
> 'foregone conclusion' doctrine's exception to the Fifth Amendment?
>
> Without understanding the legal issue, your covering this matter is
> pretty fruitless. If you agitate about legal issues without bothering
> to understand the law, you are just making noise.
>
>
> NY Times article says on that point, 'Parts of the court documents that
> would explain the reasons for Mr. Rawls’s detention and the court order
> are still under seal.' So, we presently do not know.
>
> The doctrine was developed by the USSC in 1976 in the case Fisher v.
> United States, 425 U.S. 391, 411 and reaffirmed in United States v.
> Hubbell, 530 U.S. 27 (2000). The Fifth Amendment privilege against
> 'self-incrimination' has always been ruled to extend only to
> 'incriminating communitcations... that are testimonial in nature' (US v.
> Hubbell).
>
> Fisher was an IRS case in which defendant Fisher refused to produce
> documents sought by IRS, citing Fifth Amendment privilege. The USSC
> disagreed, ruling that "the act of producing [the papers]—the only thing
> which the taxpayer is compelled to dowould not itself involve
> testimonial self-incrimination." The Court held that the government
> can compel production when the "existence and location [of documents]
> are a foregone conclusion and [the defendant] adds little or nothing to
> the sum total of the Government’s information by conceding that he in
> fact has the papers." Thus, the act of producing papers wasn't
> testimonial; it was not functionally equivalent to admitting-guilt words
> from Fisher's mouth.
>
> By contrast, the USSC disagreed with prosecution in the Hubbell case,
> where a grand jury had subpoenaed documents from an official who refused
> to comply. Here, the Court found that the prosecution had _lacked_
> a priori knowledge of the subpoenaed documents, and thus compelling the
> papers would have constituted a testimonial act.
>
> Lower courts have tended to follow dicta in the Hubbell case and
> requiring the state seeking compulsion under the 'foregone conclusion'
> doctrine to be able to show the court independent, convincing evidence
> of the 'existence, custody, and authenticity' of the material sought --
> all three of those elements, not just police handwavium.
>
> Moveover, because of subsequent cases, in three District Courts (DC
> Circuit, Ninth Circuit, Eleventh Circuit), prosecution must also have
> existing knowledge of the subpoenaed documents with "reasonable
> particularity" before "the communication inherent in the act of
> production can be considered a foregone conclusion." (Philadelphia's
> served by the Third Circuit.)
>
> _So_, the implication in the Rawls case is that the judge has seen other
> evidence (so far under seal) that already convinced him/her past a
> reasonable doubt that the hard drives' contents are child pornography,
> which is why he ruled that decrypting them isn't a testimonial act, and
> refusing his order to do so is contempt of court. Rawls's public
> defender's job was to convince the judge that whatever-that-was _didn't_
> establish the 'existence, custody, and authenticity' of kiddie porn on
> Rawls's hard drives -- but on the evidence he didn't succeed.
>
>
> Now, you can dislike the court's holding if you like, but at least you
> understand it better.
>
>
> And, next time, don't try to understand legal issues by reading advocacy
> blog postings.
>
> _______________________________________________
> hangout mailing list
> hangout-at-nylxs.com
> http://www.nylxs.com/
>


Thank You for explaining why the court is using an unjust doctrine to
imprison someone in isolation for over 7 months without his being
convicted of a crime. This, BTW, came originally from an article that I
clipped with scissors from the NY Times on May 1st 2016 page 20. I just
got to it now. I don't care what evidence the Judge has (sealed BTW).
I only care that he is torturing a man in order to have him fork over
his decryption codes. The justification is irrelevant to me, although
others might find it of interest.

Reuvain


--
So many immigrant groups have swept through our town
that Brooklyn, like Atlantis, reaches mythological
proportions in the mind of the world - RI Safir 1998
http://www.mrbrklyn.com

DRM is THEFT - We are the STAKEHOLDERS - RI Safir 2002
http://www.nylxs.com - Leadership Development in Free Software
http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/resources - Unpublished Archive
http://www.coinhangout.com - coins!
http://www.brooklyn-living.com

Being so tracked is for FARM ANIMALS and and extermination camps,
but incompatible with living as a free human being. -RI Safir 2013
_______________________________________________
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http://www.nylxs.com/

  1. 2016-09-01 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Re: [Hangout-NYLXS] Duck Duck Go is offially Dead
  2. 2016-09-01 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] Welcome Home Party
  3. 2016-09-01 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] ssh puzzle
  4. 2016-09-01 Ruben Safir <ruben.safir-at-my.liu.edu> Re: [Hangout-NYLXS] ssh puzzle
  5. 2016-09-01 Ruben Safir <ruben.safir-at-my.liu.edu> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] Fwd: LIU CS course
  6. 2016-09-02 Rick Moen <rick-at-linuxmafia.com> Re: [Hangout-NYLXS] Duck Duck Go is offially Dead
  7. 2016-09-02 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] Fwd: Linux Journal Weekly News - September 2, 2016
  8. 2016-09-02 From: =?utf-8?Q?MIT=20Digital=20Learning?= <MITxonedX-at-mit.edu> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] =?utf-8?q?Join_our_interactive_course_on_designin?=
  9. 2016-09-04 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] sad iran payoffs
  10. 2016-09-04 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] LIU Lockout
  11. 2016-09-04 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] egret of akko
  12. 2016-09-06 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] [dmarti-at-zgp.org: [linux-elitists] The un-tracking
  13. 2016-09-06 ruben <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] strange but true
  14. 2016-09-06 Rick Moen <rick-at-linuxmafia.com> Re: [Hangout-NYLXS] egret of akko
  15. 2016-09-06 eNotice <enotice-at-ieee.org> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] 2016 IEEE MIT Undergraduate Research Technology
  16. 2016-09-06 ruben safir <ruben.safir-at-my.liu.edu> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] Java Applet dead letter
  17. 2016-09-06 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] All-Writ, the FBI and contempt of court
  18. 2016-09-06 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Re: [Hangout-NYLXS] All-Writ, the FBI and contempt of court
  19. 2016-09-06 Rick Moen <rick-at-linuxmafia.com> Re: [Hangout-NYLXS] All-Writ, the FBI and contempt of court
  20. 2016-09-07 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Re: [Hangout-NYLXS] All-Writ, the FBI and contempt of court
  21. 2016-09-07 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Re: [Hangout-NYLXS] All-Writ, the FBI and contempt of court
  22. 2016-09-07 mrbrklyn <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] Fwd: 2016 IEEE MIT Undergraduate Research
  23. 2016-09-07 Rick Moen <rick-at-linuxmafia.com> Re: [Hangout-NYLXS] All-Writ, the FBI and contempt of court
  24. 2016-09-04 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [Hangout-NYLXS] LIU Brooklyn Student Update
  25. 2016-09-04 Ruben Safir <ruben.safir-at-my.liu.edu> Re: [Hangout-NYLXS] LIU Brooklyn Student Update
  26. 2016-09-07 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Re: [Hangout-NYLXS] ( going to meetings anymore ? ) | | new,
  27. 2016-09-08 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] LIU Brooklyn Lock Out
  28. 2016-09-08 From: "Linux Journal" <noreply-at-lists.linuxjournal.com> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] Linux Journal Weekly News - September 8, 2016
  29. 2016-09-10 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] who needs porgies
  30. 2016-09-10 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] Fwd: LIU Lock Out
  31. 2016-09-10 Ruben Safir <ruben.safir-at-my.liu.edu> Re: [Hangout-NYLXS] Fwd: LIU Lock Out
  32. 2016-09-07 From: =?utf-8?Q?Middle=20East=20Forum?= <mefnews-at-meforum.org> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] =?utf-8?q?End_San_Francisco_State_University_Part?=
  33. 2016-09-11 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] Fwd: End San Francisco State University Partnership
  34. 2016-09-11 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] Fwd: [wwwac] Seeking Joomla developer
  35. 2016-09-12 Gabor Szabo <gabor-at-szabgab.com> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] [Perlweekly] #268 - Awesome Open Source projects
  36. 2016-09-12 Elfen Magix <elfen_magix-at-yahoo.com> Re: [Hangout-NYLXS] Fwd: [wwwac] Seeking Joomla developer
  37. 2016-09-12 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] =?utf-8?q?Fwd=3A_=22Academic_Malfeasance=3A_The_C?=
  38. 2016-09-13 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] Fwd: [isoc-ny] ISOC-NY joins coalition of groups
  39. 2016-09-14 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] Drinks at K&R tonight
  40. 2016-09-14 ruth02-at-web.de Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] Porgies question: WHY ARE THOSE PORGIES NOT !
  41. 2016-09-14 Linux Journal Services <LinuxJournalServices-at-linuxjournalservices.com> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] All things DevOps: 2016 DevOps and Salary Reports
  42. 2016-09-15 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] Fwd: [isoc-ny] PARTNER EVENT: Bridging the Digital
  43. 2016-09-15 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] Fwd: SUSECON Adapt to Win
  44. 2016-09-16 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] Take a Selfie
  45. 2016-09-19 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] T-rex Scans
  46. 2016-09-19 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [Hangout-NYLXS] Porgies question: WHY ARE THOSE PORGIES NOT !
  47. 2016-09-20 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] Open Science
  48. 2016-09-20 James E Keenan <jkeen-at-verizon.net> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] ny.pm September social meeting: Mon Sep 26
  49. 2016-09-20 From: "Mancini, Sabin (DFS)" <Sabin.Mancini-at-dfs.ny.gov> Re: [Hangout-NYLXS] ny.pm September social meeting: Mon Sep 26 | |
  50. 2016-09-20 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Re: [Hangout-NYLXS] ny.pm September social meeting: Mon Sep 26 | |
  51. 2016-09-22 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] Cheap Working Laptops available with Linux
  52. 2016-09-22 Ron Guerin <ron-at-vnetworx.net> Re: [Hangout-NYLXS] Cheap Working Laptops available with Linux
  53. 2016-09-22 Ruben Safir <ruben.safir-at-my.liu.edu> Re: [Hangout-NYLXS] Cheap Working Laptops available with Linux
  54. 2016-09-22 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Re: [Hangout-NYLXS] Cheap Working Laptops available with Linux
  55. 2016-09-22 Ron Guerin <ron-at-vnetworx.net> Re: [Hangout-NYLXS] Cheap Working Laptops available with Linux
  56. 2016-09-23 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Re: [Hangout-NYLXS] Cheap Working Laptops available with Linux
  57. 2016-09-23 IEEE Engineering in Medicine and Biology Society <noreply-at-embs.org> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] DEADLINE Approaching: IEEE International Conference
  58. 2016-09-26 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] 3d dinosaur scans
  59. 2016-09-26 Gabor Szabo <gabor-at-szabgab.com> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] [Perlweekly] #270 - Hackathons are like buses ...
  60. 2016-09-26 Gabor Szabo <gabor-at-szabgab.com> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] [Perlweekly] #270 - Hackathons are like buses ...
  61. 2016-09-28 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] Fwd: [nylug-talk] RSVP open: Wed Oct 5,
  62. 2016-09-28 From: "Ruben.Safir" <ruben.safir-at-my.liu.edu> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] Fwd: Invitation to Submit Honorary Degree
  63. 2016-09-28 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] Friday - what are you doing?
  64. 2016-09-28 Ruben Safir <ruben.safir-at-my.liu.edu> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] Fwd: [Learn] Notice: Learn Mailing List for LIU
  65. 2016-09-28 Jon Tennant <jon.tennant.2-at-gmail.com> Re: [Hangout-NYLXS] phylogenetics
  66. 2016-09-30 Ruben Safir <ruben.safir-at-my.liu.edu> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] Fwd: News from Hackster.io
  67. 2016-09-30 Michael Schout <mschout-at-gkg.net> Re: [Hangout-NYLXS] [RELEASE CANDIDATE] mod_perl-2.0.10 RC1
  68. 2016-09-30 Steve Hay <stevehay-at-apache.org> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] [RELEASE CANDIDATE] mod_perl-2.0.10 RC1
  69. 2016-09-30 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [Hangout-NYLXS] [manjaro-dev] Removal of CLI and Thus installer
  70. 2016-09-30 Rick Moen <rick-at-linuxmafia.com> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] Hey, Ruben! Plastic bag initiatives!
  71. 2016-09-30 From: "buyertech-at-abebooks.com" <buyertech-at-abebooks.com> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] ABE Response ARN -54814837
  72. 2016-09-30 Rick Moen <rick-at-linuxmafia.com> Re: [Hangout-NYLXS] ABE Response ARN -54814837
  73. 2016-09-30 Rick Moen <rick-at-linuxmafia.com> Re: [Hangout-NYLXS] Hey, Ruben! Plastic bag initiatives!

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