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DATE 2021-04-01

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MESSAGE
DATE 2021-04-30
FROM Ruben Safir
SUBJECT Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Fwd: assessment of the GNU Assembly project
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Subject: Re: assessment of the GNU Assembly project
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Dear Andreas,
I hope you're well buddy.

The GNU Assembly is NOT a subset of the GNU Project or the Free Software
Foundation. I don't know what their intentions are, if they're
advocating for free software philosophy I support their purpose but that
doesn't mean it's OK to in any form or way make people avoid the GNU
Project.

Please don't post about it here as it most likely hurts the GNU Project.
The gnu-misc-discuss mailing list is for "General GNU project and free
software discussions" as stated on lists.gnu.org.

What they state on their website somehow implies that the GNU Project
has a hostile environment and is toxic to people. Saying their community
is harassment-free (which is basically impossible because they can
punish those who harass not prevent them) implies that the GNU Project
is a place for harassment.

The GNU Assembly got attention exactly after the recent false and
based-on-lies claims against RMS and I believe how they wrote their code
of conduct is in fact pointing to those controversies. Please stop it.
You're free to talk about anything but if it's hurting the GNU Project
or the Free Software Foundation, you have to stop doing it here.

If you want to help them, I believe they have their own mailing lists.

Thank you.

Please note that I am an individual and I'm not talking on behalf of the
GNU Project, the Free Software Foundation, or RMS.

On 18/04/2021 23:57, Andreas R. wrote:
> In this mail I try to provide an overview of the "GNU Assembly"
> initiative in relation to the GNU project.
>
> - The main page, https://gnu.tools/, states:
>
> "Welcome to the GNU Assembly!"
>
> Currently the Assembly consists of GNU maintainers. As such using "GNU"
> as part of "GNU assembly" is not misleading or inappropriate. They are a
> subset of GNU, and distinguish themselves from the larger GNU project
> by the
> distinct qualifier "Assembly".
>
> "We write free software" where "free software" links to
> https://gnu.tools/en/documents/free-software/
>
> As far as I can tell, their definition of "free software", other than
> their off-by-one
> numbering is in line with the official definition at
>
> https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.en.html
>
> To wit:
>
> -The freedom to run the program as the user wishes, for any purpose.
> -The freedom to study how the program works and to change it to suit
> their needs.
> -The freedom to redistribute it.
> -The freedom to distribute copies of modified versions.
>
> and
>
> -The freedom to run the program as you wish, for any purpose (freedom 0).
> -The freedom to study how the program works, and change it so it does
> your computing as you wish (freedom 1). Access to the source code is a
> precondition for this.
> -The freedom to redistribute copies so you can help others (freedom 2).
> -The freedom to distribute copies of your modified versions to others
> (freedom 3). By doing this you can give the whole community a chance
> to benefit from your changes. Access to the source code is a
> precondition for this.
>
> Their definition is less complete, but seems to contain no
> contradictions or
> misleading information.
>
> "Here’s what “GNU” means to us:"
>
> The bulk of the main page is a set of novelty "backronyms" of GNU to
> illustrate
> their purpose, none of which are in direct conflict with the actual GNU
> project. They, as much as anyone, should be free to fill in what the GNU
> project means to them and use and contribute to it as they see fit, even
> as a self-defined exclusive club.
>
> The main page includes a link, under "Governance, Not Unilateralism":
> -https://gnu.tools/en/documents/social-contract/
> "GNU Social Contract 1.0"
>
> This is clearly erroneous as there is no such thing as a "GNU Social
> Contract".
>
> This would be trivial to fix by renaming it to "GNU Assembly Social
> contract", but given its history it's unlikely that those who drafted it
> would be willing to amend it.
>
> The main page includes a link, under "This Group’s Not Uniform ":
> -https://gnu.tools/en/documents/code-of-conduct/
>
> Even though the GNU project has no code of conduct, it should be okay
> for any self organising subgroup of GNU maintainers to adopt one. As far
> as I can tell, there are no references or indications that this document
> would apply to anything or anyone outside of the Assembly.
>
> From their mailing list:
>
> There are some mentions of "the former GNU project" and "old GNU" by
> individual members of the list, but these might be slightly provocative
> ways distinguish between their initiative and the GNU project as a whole.
>
> https://lists.gnu.tools/hyperkitty/list/assembly-at-lists.gnu.tools/thread/3PDVUTCKG33R3KY7XCV5TKQUMIW5NMWC/
> https://lists.gnu.tools/hyperkitty/list/assembly-at-lists.gnu.tools/thread/JUBZSTVY2LLSXDPKOMOSQBN7VYJ6JN5G/
>
> There are however other claims of direct usurpation of the GNU Project
> on their
> mailing list, such as: "by creating this assembly, we affirmed that GNU
> Project leadership is in our hands, collectively, as maintainers and
> contributors to GNU."
>
> https://lists.gnu.tools/hyperkitty/list/assembly-at-lists.gnu.tools/thread/SMFKD7M34VUTUW45MSO4UOWL4C7V5FQT/
>
> As things are, holding beliefs about what a certain things constitute
> doesn't conflict with the GNU project. To clarify, if someone declares
> their house to be the newly founded dutchy of X, and themselves
> royalty, but abides by every law of the land and only adds stipulations
> that do not contravene existing regulations (e.g. every visitor to the
> kingdom of X must wear a silly hat), that is certainly odd, but should
> be no ground for the proper authorities to intervene or curtail their
> freedom of claiming it is so.
>
> There is also a proposal for inviting new software projects to the GNU
> project.
>
> https://lists.gnu.tools/hyperkitty/list/assembly-at-lists.gnu.tools/thread/QDYJKAVUKI3LS42AWWBSJXE34ANECRNO/
>
> This would be a direct violation of the GNU Project's integrity.
>
> ----
>
> Much as the EU parliament is able to accommodate and harbour an
> "anti-EU" faction, there is no real reason, at this moment, for the GNU
> Project to disavow or even undertake any action against the Assembly or
> its members.
>
> The only real transgression is the somewhat petty "GNU Social Contract",
> which tries to imply by its name that it contains policy for the
> larger GNU
> project. As stated previously, this was pointed out repeatedly to the
> writers during the drafting stage, so it might be a deliberate attempt
> to provoke an overreaction by some.
>
> As things are, my recommendations would be:
>
> -make clear that within the GNU Project's framework there is no such
> thing as a "GNU Social Contract" so people new to GNU will not be
> confused about their obligations.
>
> -to monitor if the Assembly will add new software to the GNU Project
> outside of the normal procedures and channels, and, if needed, inform
> the writers
> of the software that they are being misled.
>
> -to be wary of the Assembly trying to alter the free software definition
> so it would allow for non-free software (e.g. "ethical source") and
> thereby subvert the goals of the GNU Project by association.
>
> Other than that, I think the GNU Project's general "live and let live"
> approach towards maintainers and project development hould be honoured,
> even if some Assembly members appear to hold hostile opinions.
>
> Andreas R.
>

--
Ali Reza Hayati (https://alirezahayati.com)
Libre culture activist and privacy advocate
PGP: 88A5 BDB7 E07C 39D0 8132 6412 DCB8 F138 B865 1771


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_______________________________________________
Hangout mailing list
Hangout-at-nylxs.com
http://lists.mrbrklyn.com/mailman/listinfo/hangout

--------------AD5EB8EB061CD3DC97D67BB1--

  1. 2021-04-01 Carl Johnson via gimp-user-list <gimp-user-list-at-gnome.org> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] [Gimp-user] gimp-user-list Digest, Vol 114,
  2. 2021-04-01 IEEE Engineering in Medicine and Biology Society <m.markowycz-at-ieee.org> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Special Message from the EMBC 2021 Organizing
  3. 2021-04-04 From: "[RSS/Feed] nixCraft: Linux Tips, Hacks, Tutorials, Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] nixCraft Linux / UNIX Newsletter
  4. 2021-04-04 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] NY Post picks up anti-semetic crap supposedly
  5. 2021-04-05 Gabor Szabo <gabor-at-szabgab.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] [Perlweekly] #506 - Perl Memory Management
  6. 2021-04-02 epektasis <rptnix-at-amerytel.net> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] [artix-general] cronie-1.5.7-2_x86_64 interprets
  7. 2021-04-05 From: "Free Software Foundation" <info-at-fsf.org> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Free Software Supporter Issue 156, April 2021
  8. 2021-04-07 From: "[RSS/Feed] nixCraft: Linux Tips, Hacks, Tutorials, Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] nixCraft Linux / UNIX Newsletter
  9. 2021-04-06 James E Keenan <jkeenan-at-pobox.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] 2021 Perl and Raku Conference call for papers
  10. 2021-04-07 From: "Mets.com" <info-at-mail.mlblists.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Citi Field Has Gone Cashless!
  11. 2021-04-08 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Fwd: Citi Field Has Gone Cashless!
  12. 2021-04-11 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] WSJ has goone crazy predicting the best economy
  13. 2021-04-11 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] WSJ has goone crazy predicting the best
  14. 2021-04-12 Ruben Safir <ruben.safir-at-my.liu.edu> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Fwd: Complimentary Lecture: Tales of Theodore
  15. 2021-04-12 Gabor Szabo <gabor-at-szabgab.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] [Perlweekly] #507 - Live events
  16. 2021-04-12 From: "Free Software Foundation" <info-at-fsf.org> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Statement of FSF board on election of Richard
  17. 2021-04-12 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Where are you putting your healthcare data ?
  18. 2021-04-13 Abhilash Raj <maxking-at-asynchronous.in> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] [Mailman-Users] GNU Mailman condemns
  19. 2021-04-13 dmitri maziuk <dmitri.maziuk-at-gmail.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] [Mailman-Users] Re: GNU Mailman condemns
  20. 2021-04-13 Dave Stevens <geek-at-uniserve.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] [Mailman-Users] about Mailman and RMS
  21. 2021-04-13 Jon Ribbens via Mailman-Users <mailman-users-at-python.org> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] [Mailman-Users] Re: GNU Mailman condemns
  22. 2021-04-13 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] [Mailman-Users] Re: GNU Mailman condemns
  23. 2021-04-13 Carl Zwanzig <cpz-at-tuunq.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] [Mailman-Users] Re: GNU Mailman condemns
  24. 2021-04-13 Jon Ribbens via Mailman-Users <mailman-users-at-python.org> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] [Mailman-Users] Re: GNU Mailman condemns
  25. 2021-04-13 Abhilash Raj <maxking-at-asynchronous.in> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] [Mailman-Users] GNU Mailman condemns
  26. 2021-04-13 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] [Mailman-Users] Re: GNU Mailman condemns
  27. 2021-04-13 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] [Mailman-Users] Re: GNU Mailman condemns
  28. 2021-04-13 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] [Mailman-Users] GNU Mailman condemns
  29. 2021-04-13 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] [Mailman-Users] GNU Mailman condemns
  30. 2021-04-15 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Fwd: Search for Editor in Chief
  31. 2021-04-16 Alain Knaff <alain-at-knaff.lu> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] GNU mtools 4.0.27 released
  32. 2021-04-16 Derrick McKee <derrick.mckee-at-gmail.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] [png-mng-implement] Missing patch for
  33. 2021-04-17 Nat Conger via png-mng-implement Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] [png-mng-implement] Missing patch for
  34. 2021-04-17 Derrick McKee <derrick.mckee-at-gmail.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] [png-mng-implement] Missing patch for
  35. 2021-04-18 From: =?windows-1250?Q?Jernej_Simon=E8i=E8?= Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] [Gimp-user] Is there a 64-bit only (AMD64)
  36. 2021-04-16 From: "John A." <john-at-ankarstrom.se> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] Fixing Apache::ReadConfig limitations
  37. 2021-04-16 From: "John A." <john-at-ankarstrom.se> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] Fixing Apache::ReadConfig limitations
  38. 2021-04-16 Mithun Bhattacharya <mithnb-at-gmail.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] Fixing Apache::ReadConfig limitations
  39. 2021-04-16 From: "John A." <john-at-ankarstrom.se> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Fixing Apache::ReadConfig limitations
  40. 2021-04-19 Gabor Szabo <gabor-at-szabgab.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] [Perlweekly] #508 - Perl Steering Committee (PSC)
  41. 2021-04-20 Charles Race <crace-at-nysif.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] SQA - G-18 Information Technology Specialist
  42. 2021-04-19 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] SQA - G-18 Information Technology Specialist
  43. 2021-04-20 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] SQA - G-18 Information Technology Specialist
  44. 2021-04-21 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Knee to Neck used hundreds of times in
  45. 2021-04-22 Richard Stallman <rms-at-gnu.org> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] A student rejected nonfree programs in school,
  46. 2021-04-22 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] PROOF that COVID-19 Created Brain Disease.
  47. 2021-04-24 John A <john-at-ankarstrom.se> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] [RFC] Apache::Inject
  48. 2021-04-25 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] COVID-19 effects on education - Read Read
  49. 2021-04-26 Gabor Szabo <gabor-at-szabgab.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] [Perlweekly] #509 - Community Affairs
  50. 2021-04-28 From: "Geoffrey Knauth, FSF" <info-at-fsf.org> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Answering your frequently asked questions about
  51. 2021-04-29 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Fwd: Leaving the GNU Guix community
  52. 2021-04-29 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] We have no representation at ALL now in City
  53. 2021-04-30 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] It is a dangerous thing when the press lives in a
  54. 2021-04-30 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Fwd: Continuation of my previous mail
  55. 2021-04-30 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Fwd: assessment of the GNU Assembly project
  56. 2021-04-30 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Fwd: assessment of the GNU Assembly project
  57. 2021-04-30 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Fwd: Continuation of my previous mail
  58. 2021-04-30 aviva <aviva-at-gmx.us> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] Leaving the GNU Guix community

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