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DATE 2020-11-01

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Key: Value:

Key: Value:

MESSAGE
DATE 2020-11-15
FROM Ruben Safir
SUBJECT Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Chinese Selfidentification in the global economy

-- bloomberg.com
China’s Inexorable Rise to Superpower Is History Repeating Itself
-at-michaelschuman More stories by Michael Schuman
12-15 minutes

relates to China’s Inexorable Rise to Superpower Is History Repeating Itself

Illustration: Shuhua Xiong for Bloomberg Businessweek

Illustration: Shuhua Xiong for Bloomberg Businessweek

No foreign policy issue will plague the winner of the White House more
than China. There’s already a debate raging among China watchers over
what Washington’s next steps should be. Some favor a “reset” to tamp
down tensions and return to more constructive diplomacy. Others are
fearful of that very reset and argue the U.S. mustn’t stray from the
hard line.

The choices made by the next administration will be critical. As the
U.S. struggles to contain the coronavirus outbreak and restart its
economy, China appears to be gaining strength. Its gross domestic
product expanded 4.9% in the third quarter, an astounding rebound in a
world still mostly mired in a pandemic-induced paralysis. (Official
Chinese data have to be taken with several grains of salt, but
economists generally agree the economy is rapidly on the mend.) In its
own foreign policy, Beijing has barely flinched under U.S. pressure and
instead has become more assertive—enhancing its influence in global
institutions such as the World Health Organization, crushing the
pro-democracy movement in Hong Kong, turning up the heat on Taiwan, and
brawling (literally) with India along their disputed border.

But before the U.S. and its allies can move forward, they have to look
back to figure out how the world got to this point with China in the
first place. The consensus holds that Washington’s policy of engagement
was a grave error that created a dangerous adversary to the U.S. and
democracy itself. But that’s certainty born of hindsight.

The West really got China “wrong” by understanding the country’s arrival
as a major power within the confines of its own—not China’s—historical
experience. Because of that, we in the U.S. and the West talk and think
about China the wrong way and craft policies mismatched to the deep
historical trends shaping today’s China and its role in the world.

The key is to see the country as the Chinese see it and to place China
within the context of its history, not ours in the West. With that,
another China emerges that demands a different set of policies. Without
this altered understanding of China, Washington policymakers will
struggle to contend with Beijing and its intensifying challenge to
American global primacy.

The problem starts in high school. Mine, in Clifton, N.J., offered the
option of U.S. history or U.S. history. We learned about other parts of
the world only when they drifted into the American narrative. China made
an occasional cameo: John Hay’s Open Door Policy, or Chiang Kai-shek’s
World War II alliance against Japan. A lot of us were probably taught
history in a similar manner—through the prism of our own story.

Prisms, though, distort. It just so happens Americans encountered China
at one of the darkest points in its history. China in the 19th and early
20th centuries was politically decrepit, militarily inept, economically
archaic, and, as Westerners saw it, socially backward. We were left with
an image of the country that at best was an unmodern realm of quaint
rice paddies and silk-robed mandarins; at worst, a war-torn basket case
drenched in destitution and decay. Sure, we all know something of
China’s glittering past—of bejeweled emperors, their grand palaces, and
the engineering genius of the Great Wall. But that China is beyond our
prism.

That skews the way we describe and discuss China today. We call it an
“emerging market,” which it is within the boundaries of our own view.
But twist the prism, and Chinese poverty is a fairly recent aberration.
The country had consistently been one of the world’s largest economies
over the past 2,000 years—and still was well into the 19th century.
That’s why Westerners who visited China were awestruck by riches
exceeding anything they’d witnessed in Europe. When the first Portuguese
seafarers made their way to Guangzhou in the early 16th century, they
gasped at silk flags as large as sails. “Such is the wealth of that
country,” reads one contemporary Portuguese account, “such is its vast
supply of silk, that they squander gold leaf and silk on these flags
where we use cheap colors and coarse linen cloth.”

Rather than something startling, China’s growth into the world’s
second-largest economy is a return to the norm. So is the critical role
it plays in modern manufacturing and trade. We grouse that China has
“stolen” our factories and fret over how much stuff at Target is “Made
in China.” Historically, though, the country had been a major
manufacturing center and premier exporter, capable of producing valuable
goods on a mind-boggling scale. The Song dynasty (960-1279) experienced
a near-industrial revolution seven centuries before England’s. Silk and
porcelain, both Chinese inventions, were among the world’s first truly
global consumer products, the iPhones of their age. Centuries before
Vasco da Gama felt his way to India in 1498, China was the beating heart
of a global economic system, with trade links stretching from South
China, across Southeast Asia and the Indian Ocean, to the Persian Gulf
and Red Sea.

We also talk of the “rise of China” as if it’s astonishing and unique.
Yet China has “risen” many times before. One of the most remarkable
features of its history is how frequently the Chinese were able to
rebuild their society into a major power after periods of decline,
political disorder, and invasion. This latest period of weakness, with
China subordinated to the Western world, hasn’t been all that long by
the standards of Chinese history. For the first 300 years of direct and
consistent contact between China and the West—beginning in the early
16th century—the emperors retained the upper hand over the seaborne
Europeans. It wasn’t until the Qing dynasty’s defeat by the British in
the first Opium War (1839-42) that the balance of power swung to the
West. From the standpoint of Chinese history, what’s unusual about
modern Asia is the dominance of the West, not the return of China as a
regional powerhouse.

A much better way to describe the country’s 21st century ascent is as a
“restoration,” not so unlike the many imperial restorations of the past.
The current regime, though not a dynasty topped by an emperor (at least
officially), is rebuilding the traditional pillars of Chinese
greatness—economic, political, military, and (less successfully)
culturally—much like the Tang, Song, or Ming dynasties had in their day.

Thinking of modern China’s growing power as a restoration forces a shift
in how we contend with it. We in the West discuss how to fit China into
the global political and economic order we created. But China was never
going to be content being a mere cog in the Western machine. For much of
its history, it sat at the center of its own world order, based on a
distinctly Chinese form of foreign relations and governed by Chinese
diplomatic ideals and practices, with roots dating back more than 2,000
years. The Chinese rules of diplomacy and trade were based on the at
least ceremonial stature of China as a superior civilization, perched at
the top of a hierarchy of societies. Other kings and chiefs had to
display their respect by giving tribute to the emperors, who then
considered them vassals. With the resurgence of Chinese political and
economic clout, Beijing is resurrecting some of these traditional
foreign policy precepts. President Xi’s pet project, the
infrastructure-building “Belt and Road” initiative, treats its
participants as little more than supplicants to the throne, which can
benefit from China’s bounty only by playing by Beijing’s rules and
performing the proper kowtows.

The first step in dealing with a Chinese restoration is to accept that
China wants to be and most likely will be a global superpower. The
notion that the U.S. can “stop” China is a nonstarter. Washington can
slow things up by withholding technology and disrupting trade. But the
Chinese believe that, based on their history, they have a right to be a
superpower, and an approach meant to “keep China down,” as they see it,
will generate conflict but few tangible results. Similarly, efforts to
compel China to “play by the rules,” as in our rules, are almost equally
hopeless. The Chinese perceive the Western world order as an imposition
on an East Asia they’d usually dominated, so they’re far more likely to
assert their own rules than follow ours.

A better route is to allow China more diplomatic space in areas where it
doesn’t fundamentally damage U.S. interests. Washington has fallen into
a pattern of contesting Beijing on everything, which makes the Chinese
feel unduly contained. If Washington stops opposing their initiatives at
every turn, and is occasionally even supportive, the Chinese will sense
they’re getting the respect they deserve, at minimal cost to U.S.
influence. So if Beijing wants to set up its own international
institutions, as it did with the Asian Infrastructure Investment Bank,
just let it. Maybe even join, to sway the projects from within. Ditto
with Belt and Road. If Beijing wants to lose money and alienate other
governments building uneconomic railways and roads, we should wish it
the best. Still, today’s China does present a threat. Its history
suggests Beijing will expect to be the dominant power in East Asia (at
the very least). That’s too vital a region to concede to China, and the
U.S. will need to protect its core interests there. Best to do so with
deft diplomacy through international organizations or alliances rather
than vitriol-filled, one-on-one slugfests, as the Trump administration
has attempted. A restored Chinese “empire” will likely be too strong,
and too determined, to assert its normal position in Asia to be taken on
alone. For instance, to contain China in the South China Sea, which the
Chinese consider to be almost entirely their territory, organize the
contending parties in Southeast Asia into a collective and prod Beijing
to negotiate. Perhaps cooperate with the Association of Southeast Asian
Nations as a possible forum. Working within the World Trade Organization
to influence China, rather than outside of it, is also smarter. Chinese
leaders badly crave international stature and acclaim, and that desire
can be turned against them within these bodies to alter Chinese policy.

Most of all, a U.S. policy that recognizes Chinese history doesn’t equal
a soft one. Washington must still target China’s bad practices, more
carefully but also more forcefully. Chinese companies and officials with
proven records of stealing technology or participating in human-rights
abuses, such as the mass detention of minority Uighurs, should be
sanctioned. Duties ought to be slapped on Chinese exports that are
unduly subsidized by the state. When possible, draft policies to deal
with the risks China presents without making them blatantly anti-China.
For example, instead of banning Chinese apps such as WeChat, devise a
broader policy to protect U.S. privacy and data from all possible
foreign threats. The U.S. should continue to loudly proclaim support for
civil liberties by backing Hong Kong democracy advocates and the
democratic government of Taiwan.

Contesting these outrages are not a fight with “China,” but with the
Chinese Communist Party. The party asserts the two are equivalent, but
they aren’t. The scholar-statesmen who managed imperial China, steeped
in Confucianism, believed good government was founded on benevolence,
not brutality, and Chinese history’s most tyrannical rulers were usually
looked upon with scorn by the Confucians. We should follow their lead.

I don’t believe in historical inevitabilities: Just because China has
restored itself to great power status in the past doesn’t automatically
mean it will now. Contemporary China is still a middle-income country
lacking key technologies and plagued by an artificially aging
population; it has a long way to go to become a global superpower. Yet
from a policy standpoint, it’s wiser to recognize the historical trends
propelling it forward and rejigger the world order to address Chinese
aspirations (though not its autocracy). It won’t be easy. But neither is
denying history.
So many immigrant groups have swept through our town
that Brooklyn, like Atlantis, reaches mythological
proportions in the mind of the world - RI Safir 1998
http://www.mrbrklyn.com
DRM is THEFT - We are the STAKEHOLDERS - RI Safir 2002

http://www.nylxs.com - Leadership Development in Free Software
http://www.brooklyn-living.com

Being so tracked is for FARM ANIMALS and extermination camps,
but incompatible with living as a free human being. -RI Safir 2013
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  1. 2020-11-02 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Why our subways and streets are overwhelmed with
  2. 2020-11-02 Gabor Szabo <gabor-at-szabgab.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] [Perlweekly] #484 - What after Hacktoberfest?
  3. 2020-11-02 aviva <aviva-at-gmx.us> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Trust the Political Elite
  4. 2020-11-02 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] Trust the Political Elite
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  6. 2020-11-02 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Th Turkish Threat and the EU
  7. 2020-11-02 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Xi's Chinese threats to the US
  8. 2020-11-02 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Defunding the Police and NYC budget restraints
  9. 2020-11-02 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] Defunding the Police and NYC budget
  10. 2020-11-02 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Who needs Seat Belts??
  11. 2020-11-02 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Sleep Well tonight - everythign will OK
  12. 2020-11-02 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Telsa's need for Free Software
  13. 2020-11-02 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Go Ringo Go
  14. 2020-11-03 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Join me on the Facebook Brooklyn Fishing Group :)
  15. 2020-11-03 Ruben Safir <ruben.safir-at-my.liu.edu> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Fwd: Happy birthday!
  16. 2020-11-03 aviva <aviva-at-gmx.us> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Fwd: Re: Guix Front End (GUI) and making it more
  17. 2020-11-02 From: "Free Software Foundation" <info-at-fsf.org> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Free Software Supporter Issue 151, November 2020
  18. 2020-11-04 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Accusing Trump of dismantling the post office
  19. 2020-11-05 Ruben Safir <ruben.safir-at-my.liu.edu> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Voter fraud and the wall street journal
  20. 2020-11-05 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] The Chinaization of the West in the advent of the
  21. 2020-11-05 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Whose Vote Counts
  22. 2020-11-05 Ruben Safir <ruben.safir-at-my.liu.edu> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] [EXTERNAL] Re: .swp files
  23. 2020-11-05 From: =?utf-8?Q?Zo=C3=AB_Kooyman=2C_FSF?= <info-at-fsf.org> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] FSF35 videos online: Find them on PeerTube and
  24. 2020-11-05 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] The whole of the Hunter Biden scandal and the US
  25. 2020-11-07 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] So much good news to report
  26. 2020-11-07 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] steal this video
  27. 2020-11-08 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] The whole of the Hunter Biden scandal and the
  28. 2020-11-05 mayer ilovitz <pmamayeri-at-gmail.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] The whole of the Hunter Biden scandal and the
  29. 2020-11-08 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Senate still in contention - with new election
  30. 2020-11-08 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Obama Care in the Supreme Court
  31. 2020-11-08 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] The immorality that our professional dipolmatic
  32. 2020-11-08 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] FBI involvement in our elections..
  33. 2020-11-08 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] best analysis of the election
  34. 2020-11-08 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] This is election results by Assembly Group and
  35. 2020-11-08 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] This is election results by Assembly Group and
  36. 2020-11-08 mayer ilovitz <pmamayeri-at-gmail.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Fwd: JP 11/8/20: AOC Calls for 'Archiving Trump
  37. 2020-11-09 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] openshot from in artix/arch
  38. 2020-11-09 Gabor Szabo <gabor-at-szabgab.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] [Perlweekly] #485 - Dead or Alive
  39. 2020-11-09 Rabbinical Seminary of America/Yeshiva Chofetz Chaim Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Launching an Exciting New Initiative!
  40. 2020-11-10 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] openshot from in artix/arch
  41. 2020-11-10 David Runge <dave-at-sleepmap.de> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] openshot from in artix/arch
  42. 2020-11-09 mayer ilovitz <pmamayeri-at-gmail.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] mathematical impossibilities of biden win
  43. 2020-11-10 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] openshot from in artix/arch
  44. 2020-11-10 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] COVID-19 Deaths and politics
  45. 2020-11-10 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Ripping up the economy and the shake out..
  46. 2020-11-10 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Hezbullah displomacy under Trump
  47. 2020-11-10 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Trump PAC - new phase of the post-election
  48. 2020-11-10 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] New York City on Cusp of Second Wave of Covid-19,
  49. 2020-11-10 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Collapse of downtown
  50. 2020-11-10 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Boycotting Trump Supporters
  51. 2020-11-10 Ruben Safir via artix-general <artix-general-at-artixlinux.org> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] [artix-general] updates keep blowing away my
  52. 2020-11-11 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] [artix-general] updates keep blowing away my
  53. 2020-11-11 Ruben Safir via artix-general <artix-general-at-artixlinux.org> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] [artix-general] updates keep blowing away my
  54. 2020-11-11 Carlo den Otter via artix-general <artix-general-at-artixlinux.org> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] [artix-general] updates keep blowing away my
  55. 2020-11-10 Kian Kasad via artix-general <artix-general-at-artixlinux.org> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] [artix-general] updates keep blowing away my
  56. 2020-11-10 cromer--- via artix-general <artix-general-at-artixlinux.org> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] [artix-general] updates keep blowing away my
  57. 2020-11-10 Ruben Safir via artix-general <artix-general-at-artixlinux.org> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] [artix-general] updates keep blowing away my
  58. 2020-11-10 Ruben Safir via artix-general <artix-general-at-artixlinux.org> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] [artix-general] updates keep blowing away my
  59. 2020-11-10 Ruben Safir via artix-general <artix-general-at-artixlinux.org> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] [artix-general] updates keep blowing away my
  60. 2020-11-01 cromer--- via artix-general <artix-general-at-artixlinux.org> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] [artix-general] aurutils artix friendly?
  61. 2020-11-10 Ruben Safir via artix-general <artix-general-at-artixlinux.org> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] [artix-general] openshot from in artix/arch
  62. 2020-11-10 Ruben Safir via artix-general <artix-general-at-artixlinux.org> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] [artix-general] [dave-at-sleepmap.de: Re: openshot
  63. 2020-11-09 Ruben Safir via artix-general <artix-general-at-artixlinux.org> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] [artix-general] openshot from in artix/arch
  64. 2020-11-01 Javier via artix-general <artix-general-at-artixlinux.org> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] [artix-general] aurutils artix friendly?
  65. 2020-11-01 Javier via artix-general <artix-general-at-artixlinux.org> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] [artix-general] aurutils artix friendly?
  66. 2020-11-11 From: =?utf-8?Q?Zo=C3=AB_Kooyman=2C_FSF?= <info-at-fsf.org> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] LibrePlanet 2021: join us online on March 20 & 21
  67. 2020-11-11 Karen Perilman via Docs <docs-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] [ Docs ] New York City on Cusp of Second Wave
  68. 2020-11-12 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] fbi politics
  69. 2020-11-12 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Fwd: New article by the GNU Education Team
  70. 2020-11-12 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] suggestions on building a linux system ?
  71. 2020-11-12 mayer ilovitz <pmamayeri-at-gmail.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] suggestions on building a linux system ?
  72. 2020-11-12 mayer ilovitz <pmamayeri-at-gmail.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] suggestions on building a linux system ?
  73. 2020-11-10 Liz Moore via Docs <docs-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] [ Docs ] New York City on Cusp of Second Wave
  74. 2020-11-13 Ruben Safir <ruben.safir-at-my.liu.edu> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] suggestions on building a linux system ?
  75. 2020-11-13 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Congradulations - Now every child is a Google
  76. 2020-11-13 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Digging in for the new normal - Invest in
  77. 2020-11-13 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] teaching to think...
  78. 2020-11-13 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Biden to put the IRS on your smalphone
  79. 2020-11-13 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] The Nation is going bankrupt,
  80. 2020-11-13 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Israel E-Scooter Crazy
  81. 2020-11-13 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Chinese Threat continues
  82. 2020-11-13 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] Chinese Threat continues
  83. 2020-11-13 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] Chinese Threat continues
  84. 2020-11-13 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Continuation of Governance by executive EDICT -
  85. 2020-11-13 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] The real dangers of facial recognition software
  86. 2020-11-13 Humberto Freitas <humberto.freitas310-at-gmail.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] [Health] Setting up commissions on GNU Health
  87. 2020-11-13 Luis Falcon <falcon-at-gnuhealth.org> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] [Health] Setting up commissions on GNU Health
  88. 2020-11-13 Humberto Freitas <humberto.freitas310-at-gmail.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] [Health] Setting up commissions on GNU Health
  89. 2020-11-13 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] =?utf-8?q?Joe_Biden=E2=80=99s_Lockdown_Lobby?=
  90. 2020-11-13 From: "Xavier B. via artix-general" <artix-general-at-artixlinux.org> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] [artix-general] Was pandoc-bin dropped from
  91. 2020-11-13 Liam R E Quin <liam-at-holoweb.net> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] [Gimp-user] 10-bit display color depth
  92. 2020-11-13 LKH via gimp-user-list <gimp-user-list-at-gnome.org> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] [Gimp-user] 10-bit display color depth support
  93. 2020-11-01 From: "Rick Strong" <rnstrong-at-primus.ca> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] [Gimp-user] Color map is different than Color
  94. 2020-11-14 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Herb Immunity - a lot closer than they admitted
  95. 2020-11-14 Ruben Safir <ruben.safir-at-my.liu.edu> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Merchant of venice - entertainment for the
  96. 2020-11-14 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] The rise of C++
  97. 2020-11-15 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Facebook AI, China and censorship
  98. 2020-11-15 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Our Chinese Partners who we depend on for
  99. 2020-11-15 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Doing business with trators and genocidal
  100. 2020-11-15 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Vacinne or No vaccine - Biden transition
  101. 2020-11-15 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Chinese Selfidentification in the global economy
  102. 2020-11-15 Ruben Safir <ruben.safir-at-my.liu.edu> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] What is a little Genocide between trading partners
  103. 2020-11-15 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] What is a little Genocide between trading
  104. 2020-11-15 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Social Pressure on Tawain is how China will treat
  105. 2020-11-15 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Snoden on your cellphone spying
  106. 2020-11-16 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Men's rights
  107. 2020-11-16 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] I am looking for a new phone and this is what I
  108. 2020-11-16 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] I am looking for a new phone and this is what
  109. 2020-11-16 mayer ilovitz <pmamayeri-at-gmail.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] list of linux compatible motherboards/vendors ?
  110. 2020-11-16 Gabor Szabo <gabor-at-szabgab.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] [Perlweekly] #486 - Why do we use Perl?
  111. 2020-11-16 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] list of linux compatible motherboards/vendors
  112. 2020-11-16 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] list of linux compatible motherboards/vendors
  113. 2020-11-16 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] tux phones
  114. 2020-11-16 From: "S." <sman356-at-yahoo.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Fw: Carding | | PHOTO MILITARY ID REFUSED | | The
  115. 2020-11-16 From: "S." <sman356-at-yahoo.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Fw: Beware ATF Form 4473 [ FYI ]
  116. 2020-11-17 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] Fw: Carding | | PHOTO MILITARY ID REFUSED | |
  117. 2020-11-17 aviva <aviva-at-gmx.us> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] Fw: Carding | | PHOTO MILITARY ID REFUSED | |
  118. 2020-11-17 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Radio Show
  119. 2020-11-17 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Snoden on data collection
  120. 2020-11-17 NYOUG <execdir-at-nyoug.org> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Upcoming Events for Oracle Professionals
  121. 2020-11-17 Liz Moore <lizmoorerph-at-gmail.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] Snoden on data collection
  122. 2020-11-17 aviva <aviva-at-gmx.us> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] Snoden on data collection
  123. 2020-11-17 aviva <aviva-at-gmx.us> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] Snoden on data collection
  124. 2020-11-17 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] SuSE going IPO
  125. 2020-11-17 From: "John Sullivan, FSF" <info-at-fsf.org> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Support the free software journey
  126. 2020-11-18 From: "Pat Schloss" <pdschloss-at-gmail.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] [mothur] Code Club series and upcoming mothur and
  127. 2020-11-18 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] retail craziness and target
  128. 2020-11-18 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] tracking waves through the economy and it DOES
  129. 2020-11-18 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] More of the same puts our healthcare system at
  130. 2020-11-18 From: "S." <sman356-at-yahoo.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Passport needed to enter Pennsylvania | | *** The
  131. 2020-11-18 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Abandoning our children
  132. 2020-11-19 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Virus resolution just not soon enough - but on a
  133. 2020-11-18 Rabbinical Seminary of America/Yeshiva Chofetz Chaim Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Please Join Our Sefer Torah / Dinner Campaign.
  134. 2020-11-19 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Vaccine development breakthroughs and high Tech
  135. 2020-11-19 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Vaccine drag out by Faucci
  136. 2020-11-19 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Elli Lilly FDA citations
  137. 2020-11-19 George Moskowitz MD <yehudazev-at-gmail.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Fwd: A True Story of the invisible but dangerous
  138. 2020-11-19 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Masking Mandates
  139. 2020-11-19 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] [ Docs ] Masking Mandates Part II
  140. 2020-11-19 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] [ Docs ] Masking Mandates Part III
  141. 2020-11-19 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] previous radio show
  142. 2020-11-19 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] vaccines politics and WHO
  143. 2020-11-19 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Vaccines in History
  144. 2020-11-19 From: "Canarsie Courier" <emailsentby-at-icontactmail.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Inside This Week's Edition of the Canarsie Courier
  145. 2020-11-20 From: "Greg Farough, DbD" <info-at-defectivebydesign.org> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] FSF Giving Guide: It's the thought that counts,
  146. 2020-11-20 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] COVID-19 Test kit problems
  147. 2020-11-20 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] lockdowns killed Macy's, and with that,
  148. 2020-11-20 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] drug prices and medical economics
  149. 2020-11-20 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] vaccine cheat sheet
  150. 2020-11-20 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Ain BnB and Communist China survalience and data
  151. 2020-11-21 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] openshot from in artix/arch
  152. 2020-11-21 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] openshot from in artix/arch
  153. 2020-11-21 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] openshot from in artix/arch
  154. 2020-11-22 Gene Heskett <gheskett-at-shentel.net> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] [Gimp-user] GIMP is 25 yo
  155. 2020-11-21 Tom via gimp-user-list <gimp-user-list-at-gnome.org> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] [Gimp-user] GIMP is 25 yo
  156. 2020-11-23 Gabor Szabo <gabor-at-szabgab.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] [Perlweekly] #487 - CPAN Dashboard explained
  157. 2020-11-23 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Immunology and COVID-19 from Ariel U - tomorrow
  158. 2020-11-23 From: =?utf-8?Q?Ludovic_Court=C3=A8s?= <ludo-at-gnu.org> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] GNU Guix 1.2.0 released
  159. 2020-11-23 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Fwd: Call for Distinguished Lecturers
  160. 2020-11-23 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Fwd: GnuPG 2.2.25 released
  161. 2020-11-23 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Applied Math R and Stats etc
  162. 2020-11-23 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] cable will screw you more this coming year
  163. 2020-11-23 From: "Ruben Rodriguez, FSF" <info-at-fsf.org> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Moving into the future with the FSF tech team
  164. 2020-11-24 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Student Loan relief, and governance by fiat..
  165. 2020-11-24 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] 2001 - just in case anyone missed this
  166. 2020-11-24 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Chinese apps continue to collect your personal
  167. 2020-11-24 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] Chinese apps continue to collect your
  168. 2020-11-24 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] FWIW - Trump continues to deliver on his promises
  169. 2020-11-24 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] The New Public Enemy Number One
  170. 2020-11-25 aviva <aviva-at-gmx.us> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] The New Public Enemy Number One
  171. 2020-11-26 From: "S." <sman356-at-yahoo.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Fw: Washington Times: Biden won thousands of
  172. 2020-11-26 From: "S." <sman356-at-yahoo.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] suggestions on building a linux system ?
  173. 2020-11-26 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] suggestions on building a linux system ?
  174. 2020-11-26 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] a small amount of COVID-19 justice
  175. 2020-11-29 Javier via artix-general <artix-general-at-artixlinux.org> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] [artix-general] building python-pymupdf from
  176. 2020-11-29 jc_gargma via artix-general <artix-general-at-artixlinux.org> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] [artix-general] generating zstd compress
  177. 2020-11-28 jc_gargma via artix-general <artix-general-at-artixlinux.org> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] [artix-general] generating zstd compress
  178. 2020-11-28 Javier via artix-general <artix-general-at-artixlinux.org> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] [artix-general] generating zstd compress
  179. 2020-11-28 Javier via artix-general <artix-general-at-artixlinux.org> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] [artix-general] generating zstd compress initrd
  180. 2020-11-28 Javier via artix-general <artix-general-at-artixlinux.org> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] [artix-general] building python-pymupdf from AUR
  181. 2020-11-29 Ruben Safir via artix-general <artix-general-at-artixlinux.org> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] [artix-general] building python-pymupdf from
  182. 2020-11-29 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] The death of our freedom to travel (like it is in
  183. 2020-11-29 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] the real end of the free world... this is it..
  184. 2020-11-29 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Free Snowden now...
  185. 2020-11-29 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] The effects of industiral shutdown on the
  186. 2020-11-29 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] [ Docs ] the real end of the free world...
  187. 2020-11-29 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Dovid and Itka Safir fighting for Social justice
  188. 2020-11-29 Rabbinical Seminary of America/Yeshiva Chofetz Chaim Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Please Join Our Sefer Torah / Dinner Campaign.
  189. 2020-11-29 Javier via artix-general <artix-general-at-artixlinux.org> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] [artix-general] [s6] alsactl restore not
  190. 2020-11-30 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] The Supreme Court and the Census - the REAL
  191. 2020-11-30 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] The Voting system has fraud baked in...
  192. 2020-11-30 Gabor Szabo <gabor-at-szabgab.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] [Perlweekly] #488 - Advent Calendar 2020
  193. 2020-11-30 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Can folks see this image?
  194. 2020-11-30 Javier via artix-general <artix-general-at-artixlinux.org> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] [artix-general] [artix-gen] python2-pillow
  195. 2020-11-30 Javier via artix-general <artix-general-at-artixlinux.org> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] [artix-general] [s6] alsactl restore not
  196. 2020-11-30 Dudemanguy via artix-general <artix-general-at-artixlinux.org> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] [artix-general] [s6] alsactl restore not
  197. 2020-11-30 Javier via artix-general <artix-general-at-artixlinux.org> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] [artix-general] [s6] alsactl restore not
  198. 2020-11-30 Dudemanguy via artix-general <artix-general-at-artixlinux.org> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] [artix-general] [s6] alsactl restore not
  199. 2020-11-17 Joe Orton <jorton-at-apache.org> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] [ANNOUNCE] libapreq2-2.15 Released
  200. 2020-11-17 From: "Edward J. Sabol" <edwardjsabol-at-gmail.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] [ANNOUNCE] libapreq2-2.15 Released

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