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DATE 2001-11-01

HANGOUT

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Key: id Value: 502352

Key: archive Value: 2001-11-01

MESSAGE
DATE 2001-11-04
FROM Abdele Darius Sabre
SUBJECT Re: [hangout] Re: [nylug-talk] Hardrives, Bios and Linux
From owner-hangout-desteny-at-mrbrklyn.com Sun Nov 4 20:49:07 2001
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Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2001 17:49:00 -0800 (PST)
From: Abdele Darius Sabre
Subject: Re: [hangout] Re: [nylug-talk] Hardrives, Bios and Linux
To: Derek Vadala
Cc: nylug-talk-at-nylug.org, hangout-at-nylxs.com, fairuse-at-mrbrklyn.com,
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> Re-read what you wrote.

Thank you. I did re-read it.

>Your saying that people
> don't have a right to use
> Linux unless they lobby for it's political ideals.

I re-read what I wrote. I do not believe I expressed
what you said. I do say that people who use linux
without supporting the political conditions which made
it's development possible are like thieves and are
freeloaders.



> That's no different
> that charging for a software license as far as I see
> it.


Charging for the software is not an issue. You can
charge for the software. That is perfectly fine and
it is encouraged by Linux International. Linux
software IS licensed under copyright and the user has
obligations. This is true. I say even more, that
Linux users who are against Linux politcally are
hypocrites and thieves. People who work with Linux
should just ignor them, and refuse them support.

That is what I am saying.

> It's an illusion
> of freedom.

No your not correct. Freedom is not an illusion on the
freedom which allowed for the development of Linux is
real and threatened.


> And, I think a lot of people would
> disagree with that
> idea.


>You're also using an analogy that Bill Gates
> has used to describe
> software piracy in the past-- thief stealing hard
> work yada yada.
>

I never mentioned Bill Gates. Do you want to discuss
Bill Gates as well?

> > Also, I do not see how you make this point from
> the
> > discussion of Alan Cox, or how you mean it be what
> you
> > said it means. You are jumping around on points
> > everywhere.
>
> We were talking about withholding security fixes
> (which are tehcnically
> not actionable under DMCA) as an attempt to force
> people to become
> politically active and support a certain political
> ideal. This is no
> different than being a professional lobbyist group
> except that code is
> being used instead of cash.

That is not really true, but you have a valid pont.
It does not address the question of how you relate all
this back to Alan Cox, however, the GPL, as it is
created does indeed use the code and the license to
assure political freedom. And the code should be used
to assure that freedom it that is possible.


>
> > I also agree with Ruben. Anyone who would outlaw
> > Linux or deny the political freedom represents
> also
> > denies the basic human rights needed for a
> capitalist
> > society.
>
> I don't recall anyone even suggesting this.

Efforts have been mde to outlaw Linux outright. In
addition, the ability to reverse engineer and own
information, both of which is fundemental to many
things, but also Linux, is outlawed by the DMCA.


If you speak saying that you desire to outlaw the
basic principles that Linux stands requires, you do
this by strenously objecting to Alan pushing the
community to do what it should be. You were then said
to be talking like a Pinko anti-American Commie who
hates Capitalism. For all the reasons I explained, I
agree with this view.

>I'm
> simply saying that people
> should have both the right not to care, and the
> right to be secure at the
> same time.

This is not even remotely what you were saying. But
if you want to say this now, I will accept this and
then remind you that when Alan Cox put 2 years of
intense labor as an investment into the Linux kernel,
and when the community is ungrateful and squanders the
political freedom to assure that this investment
remains free for his use, and everyones use, then he
is perfectly correct to use whatever leverage he can
to push people to defeat the DMCA and SCSSS and
whatever else rolls around Congress. Cox is morally
correct, legally correct, and politically correct to
use the development or anything else to defeat people
who would end Linux, our civil rights and our economic
rights.


Even people who use Linux and urge others to not to
participate in the needed normal political process
required to protect these basic civil rights. And
these civil rights are not just Linux issues, but also
destroy educational, libraries, and the basis of our
political freedom. The DMCA is like a poll-tax.


> > > But what do I know, I'm apparently a
> "pinko-commie".
> >
> > Yes
> >
> > You are.
>
> I think you and Ruben really need to do some reading
> and realize that a
> lot of Linux users are socialists and communists.
> And, if you can't see
> the socialist aspects of Linux and GPL, then you're
> missing the whole
> point. These McCarthyisms are borderline facsist.
>

Yes, facists alway ask you to write Congress to
protect your freedom of property, and speech. It is
the fist page of the Little Ayatola handbook of
facisms.


> ---
> Derek Vadala, derek-at-cynicism.com,
> http://www.cynicism.com/~derek
>


__________________________________________________
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New Yorker Linux Users Scene
Fair Use -
because it's either fair use or useless....

  1. 2001-11-29 From: "Michael M. L. Broggy" <mbroggy-at-xooyooz.com> Re: [hangout] We are just not doing enough...
  2. 2001-11-16 bandie-at-linuxfreemail.com Re: [hangout] CGI-WRAPPER
  3. 2001-11-15 bandie-at-linuxfreemail.com Re: [hangout] Dell Completely hates Linux
  4. 2001-11-15 bandie-at-linuxfreemail.com Re: [hangout] Nominations report, Next executive meeting,
  5. 2001-11-15 bandie-at-linuxfreemail.com Subject: [hangout] Re: [nylug-talk] MS Access under Linux
  6. 2001-11-15 Joe Villari <joev_nylxs-at-pipeline.com> Re: [hangout] Nominations report, Next executive meeting, Outline
  7. 2001-11-15 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [hangout] Dell Completely hates Linux
  8. 2001-11-15 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [hangout] Perl IRC Tonite
  9. 2001-11-15 From: <joev_nylxs-at-pipeline.com> Re: [hangout] Nominations report, Next executive meeting, Outline of the years goals
  10. 2001-11-15 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [hangout] CGI-WRAPPER
  11. 2001-11-15 Ron Guerin <ron-at-vnetworx.net> Re: [hangout] CGI-WRAPPER
  12. 2001-11-15 Abdele Darius Sabre <randombeeps-at-yahoo.com> Subject: [hangout] CGI-WRAPPER
  13. 2001-11-15 Abdele Darius Sabre <randombeeps-at-yahoo.com> Re: [hangout] Nominations report, Next executive meeting, Outline of the years goals
  14. 2001-11-15 Abdele Darius Sabre <randombeeps-at-yahoo.com> Re: [hangout] Re: [nylug-talk] MS Access under Linux
  15. 2001-11-15 bandie-at-linuxfreemail.com Subject: [hangout] Re: [nylug-talk] MS Access under Linux
  16. 2001-11-15 bandie-at-linuxfreemail.com Re: [hangout] fyi
  17. 2001-11-15 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [hangout] Nominations report, Next executive meeting, Outline of the years goals
  18. 2001-11-15 Dana Hudes <dhudes-at-hudes.org> Subject: [hangout] fyi
  19. 2001-11-14 From: "News" <news-at-impact-it.net> Subject: [hangout] Need a Dell Laptop Repair Shop
  20. 2001-11-13 jonathan hirschman <jonathan-at-hirschman.net> Re: [hangout] Perl Class: Mailing List is up
  21. 2001-11-13 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [hangout] Perl Class: Mailing List is up
  22. 2001-11-13 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [hangout] Re: wednesday meeting
  23. 2001-11-13 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [hangout] Fw: Object Perl Monger wanted
  24. 2001-11-13 From: "Dana Hudes" <dhudes-at-hudes.org> Subject: [hangout] Fw: Object Perl Monger wanted
  25. 2001-11-13 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [hangout] Complete Educational program and Fund Raising
  26. 2001-11-13 bandie-at-linuxfreemail.com Re: [hangout] Problem with http://nylxs.com
  27. 2001-11-13 bandie-at-linuxfreemail.com Re: [hangout] Problem with http://nylxs.com
  28. 2001-11-13 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [hangout] ANNOUNCEMENT: Brooklyn Tech
  29. 2001-11-13 bandie-at-linuxfreemail.com Re: [hangout] Problem with http://nylxs.com
  30. 2001-11-13 bandie-at-linuxfreemail.com Re: [hangout] Fee Software JOBS EXPO
  31. 2001-11-13 bandie-at-linuxfreemail.com Subject: [hangout] Perl IRC Bot Lecture
  32. 2001-11-13 Ron Guerin <ron-at-vnetworx.net> Re: [hangout] Problem with http://nylxs.com
  33. 2001-11-13 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [hangout] Fee Software JOBS EXPO
  34. 2001-11-13 bandie-at-linuxfreemail.com Re: [hangout] NEW Proposed Constitution TEMPLATE November 12th
  35. 2001-11-13 bandie-at-linuxfreemail.com Re: [hangout] NEW Proposed Constitution TEMPLATE November 12th
  36. 2001-11-12 Brooklyn Linux Solutions CEO <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [hangout] Comments on Proposed Constitution
  37. 2001-11-12 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [hangout] Comments on Proposed Constitution
  38. 2001-11-12 From: "Michael M. L. Broggy" <mbroggy-at-xooyooz.com> Re: [hangout] Comments on Proposed Constitution
  39. 2001-11-12 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [hangout] Install Feast Happiness
  40. 2001-11-12 bandie-at-linuxfreemail.com Re: [hangout] Comments on Proposed Constitution
  41. 2001-11-12 bandie-at-linuxfreemail.com Subject: [hangout] InstallFeast
  42. 2001-11-12 bandie-at-linuxfreemail.com Re: [hangout] Problem with http://nylxs.com
  43. 2001-11-12 bandie-at-linuxfreemail.com Subject: (fwd) [hangout] Plane Crash in Queens
  44. 2001-11-12 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [hangout] Plane Crash in Queens
  45. 2001-11-12 Jay Sulzberger <jays-at-panix.com> Re: [hangout] Problem with http://nylxs.com
  46. 2001-11-12 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [hangout] Problem with http://nylxs.com
  47. 2001-11-11 Ron Guerin <ron-at-vnetworx.net> Subject: [hangout] Problem with http://nylxs.com
  48. 2001-11-11 From: "Joseph A. Maffia" <jam-at-rm-cpa.com> Re: [hangout] Comments on Proposed Constitution
  49. 2001-11-11 marcusconti-at-excite.com Re: [hangout] Standing Commitees
  50. 2001-11-11 Jay Sulzberger <jays-at-panix.com> Subject: [hangout] New York City Noon Monday 12 November 2001: Rally to Free Dmitry
  51. 2001-11-11 Joe Villari <joev_nylxs-at-pipeline.com> Re: [hangout] Comments on Proposed Constitution
  52. 2001-11-11 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [hangout] Road Map
  53. 2001-11-10 Abdele Darius Sabre <randombeeps-at-yahoo.com> Re: [hangout] Standing Commitees
  54. 2001-11-09 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Fwd: [hangout] ANNOUNCEMENT:Fair USe Action on Sunday [ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com]
  55. 2001-11-09 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [hangout] ANNOUNCEMENT:Fair USe Action on Sunday
  56. 2001-11-09 bandie-at-linuxfreemail.com Re: [hangout] What will nylxs taxable status be (i.e. profit,
  57. 2001-11-09 Jay Sulzberger <jays-at-panix.com> Subject: [hangout] Sunday 11 November 2001 Install Fest at Ruben's in Brooklyn
  58. 2001-11-08 From: "Joseph A. Maffia" <jam-at-rm-cpa.com> Re: [hangout] What will nylxs taxable status be (i.e. profit,
  59. 2001-11-08 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [hangout] What will nylxs taxable status be (i.e. profit, non-profit, not for profit, Ltd...)?
  60. 2001-11-08 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [hangout] Fwd: [wwwac] NYNMA Law and Business Sig: Monday, Nov. 12 [sfiller-at-nylawline.com]
  61. 2001-11-08 Brooklyn Linux Solutions CEO <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [hangout] Standing Commitees
  62. 2001-11-08 Billy <billy-at-dadadada.net> Re: [hangout] openssh upgrades
  63. 2001-11-08 Billy <billy-at-dadadada.net> Re: [hangout] openssh upgrades
  64. 2001-11-08 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [hangout] Standing Commitees
  65. 2001-11-08 bandie-at-linuxfreemail.com Re: [hangout] What will nylxs taxable status be (i.e. profit,
  66. 2001-11-08 bandie-at-linuxfreemail.com Re: [hangout] Standing Commitees
  67. 2001-11-08 bandie-at-linuxfreemail.com Re: [hangout] Announcement: Perl Bots Talk From NYLXS
  68. 2001-11-08 bandie-at-linuxfreemail.com Re: [hangout] Announcement: The Installfest
  69. 2001-11-08 bandie-at-linuxfreemail.com Subject: [hangout] (fwd) [nylug-talk] NYLUG.org 11/12, Nov meeting, Monday -at- 6:30pm
  70. 2001-11-08 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [hangout] Standing Commitees
  71. 2001-11-08 marcusconti-at-excite.com Subject: [hangout] Standing Commitees
  72. 2001-11-07 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [hangout] What will nylxs taxable status be (i.e. profit, non-profit, not for profit, Ltd...)?
  73. 2001-11-07 From: "Michael E. George" <meg7-at-nyu.edu> Subject: [hangout] What will nylxs taxable status be (i.e. profit, non-profit, not for
  74. 2001-11-07 joev_nylxs-at-pipeline.com Re: [hangout] Announcement: The Installfest
  75. 2001-11-07 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [hangout] Announcement: Perl Bots Talk From NYLXS
  76. 2001-11-07 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [hangout] Announcement: Officer Nomination Meeting
  77. 2001-11-07 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [hangout] Announcement: Fair Use Planning Meeting
  78. 2001-11-07 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [hangout] Announcement: Fair Use Planning Meeting
  79. 2001-11-06 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [hangout] Announcement: NYLXS Meeting tonight
  80. 2001-11-06 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [hangout] CANCEL NOTICE: Tuesday 6 November 2001 LXNY Meeting is Cancelled
  81. 2001-11-06 Jay Sulzberger <jays-at-panix.com> Subject: [hangout] CANCEL NOTICE: Tuesday 6 November 2001 LXNY Meeting is Cancelled
  82. 2001-11-06 Billy <billy-at-dadadada.net> Re: [hangout] openssh upgrades
  83. 2001-11-06 Billy <billy-at-dadadada.net> Re: [hangout] Comments on Proposed Constitution
  84. 2001-11-06 Billy <billy-at-dadadada.net> Re: [hangout] openssh upgrades
  85. 2001-11-06 Billy <billy-at-dadadada.net> Re: [hangout] teaching perl: testing scripts
  86. 2001-11-05 Billy <billy-at-dadadada.net> Re: [hangout] openssh upgrades
  87. 2001-11-05 Billy <billy-at-dadadada.net> Re: [hangout] Comments on Proposed Constitution
  88. 2001-11-05 Billy <billy-at-dadadada.net> Re: [hangout] teaching perl: testing scripts
  89. 2001-11-05 Billy <billy-at-dadadada.net> Subject: [nylug-talk] Re: [hangout] openssh - key based authentication
  90. 2001-11-05 Billy <billy-at-dadadada.net> Subject: [nylug-talk] Re: [hangout] openssh - key based authentication
  91. 2001-11-05 Billy <billy-at-dadadada.net> Subject: [nylug-talk] Re: [hangout] openssh - key based authentication
  92. 2001-11-05 Billy <billy-at-dadadada.net> Subject: [nylug-talk] Re: [hangout] openssh - key based authentication
  93. 2001-11-05 Billy <billy-at-dadadada.net> Subject: [nylug-talk] Re: [hangout] openssh - key based authentication
  94. 2001-11-05 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [hangout] Equiptment
  95. 2001-11-05 Abdele Darius Sabre <randombeeps-at-yahoo.com> Re: [hangout] Re: [nylug-talk] Alan Cox and freedom
  96. 2001-11-05 Ron Guerin <ron-at-vnetworx.net> Re: [hangout] Hardware Support for Linux/Why Not XP
  97. 2001-11-04 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [hangout] Coming Week Schedule
  98. 2001-11-04 Abdele Darius Sabre <randombeeps-at-yahoo.com> Re: [hangout] Re: [nylug-talk] Hardrives, Bios and Linux
  99. 2001-11-04 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [hangout] Hardware Support for Linux/Why Not XP
  100. 2001-11-04 Abdele Darius Sabre <randombeeps-at-yahoo.com> Re: [hangout] Re: [nylug-talk] Hardrives, Bios and Linux
  101. 2001-11-04 Jay Sulzberger <jays-at-panix.com> Subject: [hangout] New York City Noon Monday 5 November 2001: Rally to Free Dmitry
  102. 2001-11-04 Abdele Darius Sabre <randombeeps-at-yahoo.com> Re: [hangout] Re: [nylug-talk] Hardrives, Bios and Linux
  103. 2001-11-04 bandie-at-linuxfreemail.com Re: [hangout] Richard Schwartz is in charge of New York state's
  104. 2001-11-04 Abdele Darius Sabre <randombeeps-at-yahoo.com> Re: [hangout] Re: [nylug-talk] Hardrives, Bios and Linux
  105. 2001-11-04 bandie-at-linuxfreemail.com Subject: [hangout] Re: [nylug-talk] Hardrives, Bios and Linux
  106. 2001-11-02 David Sugar <dyfet-at-ostel.com> Re: [hangout] Richard Schwartz is in charge of New York state's part
  107. 2001-11-02 Abdele Darius Sabre <randombeeps-at-yahoo.com> Re: [hangout] Richard Schwartz is in charge of New York state's part in the Microsoft anti-trust action.
  108. 2001-11-02 Abdele Darius Sabre <randombeeps-at-yahoo.com> Re: [hangout] Richard Schwartz is in charge of New York state's part in the Microsoft anti-trust action.
  109. 2001-11-02 Jay Sulzberger <jays-at-panix.com> Subject: [hangout] Richard Schwartz is in charge of New York state's part in the
  110. 2001-11-02 Abdele Darius Sabre <randombeeps-at-yahoo.com> Re: [hangout] hard drives and bios
  111. 2001-11-02 Abdele Darius Sabre <randombeeps-at-yahoo.com> Re: [hangout] Lending Library (was used books)
  112. 2001-11-02 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [hangout] First Post - Welcome
  113. 2001-11-02 bandie-at-linuxfreemail.com Subject: [hangout] First Post - Welcome
  114. 2001-11-02 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [hangout] Class Announcment
  115. 2001-11-02 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [hangout] Airport security
  116. 2001-11-02 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [hangout] Lending Library (was used books)
  117. 2001-11-02 Matthew Hirsch <mph-at-dorsai.org> Re: [hangout] Airport security
  118. 2001-11-01 joev_nylxs-at-pipeline.com Subject: [hangout] hard drives and bios
  119. 2001-11-01 Ruth Shanen <casandra-at-ix.netcom.com> Re: [hangout] Proposed Constitution TEMPLATE
  120. 2001-11-23 hangout-at-nylxs.com Re: [hangout] IBM and Linux

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