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DATE 2008-10-01

HANGOUT

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MESSAGE
DATE 2008-10-11
FROM Ruben Safir
SUBJECT Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Kevin Marks Blog
From lest-hangout-at-mrbrklyn.com Sat Oct 11 20:08:20 2008
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Posted by Kevin Marks at 13:12 1 comments Links to this post
Labels: open web, OpenSocial, Social Cloud, social networks
Monday, 28 July 2008

Here Comes Everybody - Tummlers, Geishas, Animateurs and Chief
Conversation Officers help us listen

Bob Garfield's de haut en bas attack on web commenters upset two very
skilled conversational catalysts, Ira Glass, and Derek Powazek. The
false dichotomy of 'we choose who you get to hear' and 'total anarchic
mob noise' was dismissed by Jack Lail too. At the same time, Ben Laurie
explained how the IETF's open-to-all mailing lists can be hijacked by
time-rich fools, talking about the Open Web Foundation.

At Supernova last month, listening to Clay Shirky talk about the
problems of collective action reminded me of a small nit I have with his
excellent book Here Comes Everybody (which you should all read). He
talks about the deep changes that ridiculously easy group forming online
has wrought, but he also explains that most of these groups fail, in
various ways.

The key to this is finding people who play the role of conversational
catalyst within a group, to welcome newcomers, rein in old hands and set
the tone of the conversation so that it can become a community. Clay
referred to Teresa Nielsen-Hayden, who is a great example of this, and I
have had the privilege to discuss this with Teresa, Amy Muller,Christy
Canida and others at the Troll Whispering session at Web2Open, and heard
very similar stories from Gina Trapini, Annalee Newitz, Jessamyn West
and Jeska Dzwigalski at The Users Are Revolting at SXSW.

The communities that fail, whether dying out from apathy or being
overwhelmed by noise, are the ones that don't have someone there
cherishing the conversation, setting the tone, creating a space to
speak, and rapidly segregating those intent on damage. The big problem
with have is that we don't have a English name for this role; they get
called 'Moderators' (as Tom Coates thoroughly described) or 'Community
Managers', and because when they're doing it right you see everyone's
conversation, not their carefully crafted atmosphere, their role is
often ignored.

In other languages there are words closer to this role - Suw and I
thought of geisha a while back, whereas Teresa suggested the Yiddish
Tummler - both Deb Schultz and Heather Gold liked that one. In French
animateur has the broader connotations of discussion, leadership and
guidance needed, but in English we are stuck with enervated latinate
words like facilitator. Even an eloquent and charismatic presidential
candidatehad a difficult time explaining what a 'Community Organizer'
does, around the same time that Bartlett was resorting to card tricks.

Which brings me back to Clay's book - in it he gives an account of the
#joiito chatroom that completely misses the rĂ´le that JeannieCool played
there, making her sound like a n00b. The software tool, jibot, that has
helped keep that conversation going for 5 years, was built to support
Jeannie's role as conversational catalyst. I do hope he gets a chance to
correct this in the next edition.

The broader issue is one that we are still working on - building rules
for who gets to speak where and when, re-imagining the historic model of
a single hegemonic public record that print Journalism still aspires to,
from its roots in the coffeeshops of London into the many parallel
publics we see on the web, and how legal precedents designed for a
monopoly of speech make no sense here.

In the meantime, if your newspaper, social media initiative or website
isn't working right, you need to find your tummler, geisha, animateur or
conversational catalyst, but you should consider giving them a big name
title like 'Chief Conversation Officer'.
Posted by Kevin Marks at 18:08 7 comments Links to this post
Labels: animateur, Chief Conversation Officer, Christy Canida, Clay
Shirky, conversational catalyst, geisha, moderation, Obama, Teresa
Nielsen-Hayden, Tom Coates, tummler


  1. 2008-10-01 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] new hacking attempts
  2. 2008-10-01 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] NYLXS Radio Show
  3. 2008-10-01 From: "Paul Robert Marino" <prmarino1-at-gmail.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] new hacking attempts
  4. 2008-10-01 From: "Paul Robert Marino" <prmarino1-at-gmail.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] new hacking attempts
  5. 2008-10-01 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] C Programming Workship: Make
  6. 2008-10-01 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Autoconf
  7. 2008-10-01 Ruben <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] autoconf
  8. 2008-10-02 email <ray-pub-at-rcn.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] wget & mirrors
  9. 2008-10-02 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Is this not the funniest documentation you ever read?
  10. 2008-10-02 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] wget & mirrors
  11. 2008-10-02 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] autoconf and gtkmm
  12. 2008-10-02 Elfen Magix <elfen_magix-at-yahoo.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] NYLXS Radio Show
  13. 2008-10-02 Elfen Magix <elfen_magix-at-yahoo.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] new hacking attempts
  14. 2008-10-02 Ruben <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Re: autoconf
  15. 2008-10-02 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] NYLXS Radio Show
  16. 2008-10-02 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Re: autoconf
  17. 2008-10-02 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] [danielko.listas-at-gmail.com: Re: gtkmm and autoconf]
  18. 2008-10-03 Elfen Magix <elfen_magix-at-yahoo.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] NYLXS Radio Show
  19. 2008-10-03 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] NYLXS Radio Show
  20. 2008-10-04 Elfen Magix <elfen_magix-at-yahoo.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] NYLXS Radio Show
  21. 2008-10-06 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Hackers Beware
  22. 2008-10-06 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Re: Help make history
  23. 2008-10-07 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Free Markets and Moral Development
  24. 2008-10-07 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] The World will be changed as you know it
  25. 2008-10-07 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Real 3d Screens are coming
  26. 2008-10-07 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Cost of Copyright Violation as reported is a lie?
  27. 2008-10-07 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Re: [linux-elitists] One more thing on DRM...
  28. 2008-10-07 From: "Ronny Abraham" <ronny.coder-at-gmail.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Re: Help make history
  29. 2008-10-08 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Re: Embperl Abandoned: Next Steps?
  30. 2008-10-08 Contrarian <adrba-at-nyct.net> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] G C T
  31. 2008-10-08 Elfen Magix <elfen_magix-at-yahoo.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Re: Embperl Abandoned: Next Steps?
  32. 2008-10-08 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Re: Embperl Abandoned: Next Steps?
  33. 2008-10-08 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Re: Embperl Abandoned: Next Steps?
  34. 2008-10-08 From: "Paul Robert Marino" <prmarino1-at-gmail.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Re: Embperl Abandoned: Next Steps?
  35. 2008-10-09 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Toggle Button Bug
  36. 2008-10-10 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Re: Problems with Apache and SessionX hanging
  37. 2008-10-11 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Kevin Marks Blog
  38. 2008-10-12 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Making a Boot Flash Drive
  39. 2008-10-12 Elfen Magix <elfen_magix-at-yahoo.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Making a Boot Flash Drive
  40. 2008-10-12 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Making a Boot Flash Drive
  41. 2008-10-13 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Installfest/Social Gathering
  42. 2008-10-13 Elfen Magix <elfen_magix-at-yahoo.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Installfest/Social Gathering
  43. 2008-10-13 Elfen Magix <elfen_magix-at-yahoo.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Making a Boot Flash Drive
  44. 2008-10-13 Contrarian <adrba-at-nyct.net> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Installfest/Social Gathering
  45. 2008-10-13 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Installfest/Social Gathering
  46. 2008-10-14 Elfen Magix <elfen_magix-at-yahoo.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Installfest/Social Gathering
  47. 2008-10-16 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] openSuSE 11 on a EEEPC 701
  48. 2008-10-16 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] [announce-at-isoc-ny.org: [isoc-ny] NYC COUNCIL TECH COMMITTEE .NYC HEARING FRIDAY 10am]
  49. 2008-10-16 Elfen Magix <elfen_magix-at-yahoo.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Installfest/Social Gathering
  50. 2008-10-16 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Installfest/Social Gathering
  51. 2008-10-16 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Installfest, Social Gathering Sunday un the Succot
  52. 2008-10-17 Nick Pytel <npytel-at-rattech.net> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Installfest, Social Gathering Sunday un the
  53. 2008-10-17 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Installfest, Social Gathering Sunday un the Succot
  54. 2008-10-17 Elfen Magix <elfen_magix-at-yahoo.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Installfest/Social Gathering
  55. 2008-10-17 Elfen Magix <elfen_magix-at-yahoo.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Installfest, Social Gathering Sunday un the Succot
  56. 2008-10-22 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Getting Rid of Mail servers on my Laptop
  57. 2008-10-22 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] [stan-at-etrtechcenter.com: Western Nassau County Tech Lead Lamp Developer]
  58. 2008-10-22 From: "Paul Robert Marino" <prmarino1-at-gmail.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Getting Rid of Mail servers on my Laptop
  59. 2008-10-22 From: "Paul Robert Marino" <prmarino1-at-gmail.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Getting Rid of Mail servers on my Laptop
  60. 2008-10-23 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Re: [opensuse] Getting Rid of postfix and exim on my laptop
  61. 2008-10-23 Kevin Mark <kevin.mark-at-verizon.net> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Re: [opensuse] Getting Rid of postfix and
  62. 2008-10-23 From: "Paul Robert Marino" <prmarino1-at-gmail.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] GNU/Android Linux (Google) phones
  63. 2008-10-23 From: "mlr52-at-michaellrichardson.com" <mlr52-at-michaellrichardson.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] RE: Mandriva OEM Program
  64. 2008-10-23 From: "Ronny Abraham" <ronny.coder-at-gmail.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] GNU/Android Linux (Google) phones
  65. 2008-10-23 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Re: [opensuse] Getting Rid of postfix and exim on my laptop
  66. 2008-10-23 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Re: [opensuse] Getting Rid of postfix and exim on my laptop
  67. 2008-10-23 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Re: [opensuse] Getting Rid of postfix and exim on my laptop
  68. 2008-10-23 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Re: [opensuse] Getting Rid of postfix and exim on my laptop
  69. 2008-10-23 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] [anton.aylward-at-rogers.com: Re: [opensuse] Getting Rid of postfix and exim on my laptop]
  70. 2008-10-23 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Re: [opensuse] Getting Rid of postfix and exim on my laptop
  71. 2008-10-23 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Re: [opensuse] Getting Rid of postfix and exim on my laptop
  72. 2008-10-23 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Re: [opensuse] Getting Rid of postfix and exim on my laptop
  73. 2008-10-23 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] [ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com: Re: [opensuse] Getting Rid of postfix and exim on my laptop]
  74. 2008-10-23 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] [ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com: Re: [opensuse] Getting Rid of postfix and exim on my laptop]
  75. 2008-10-23 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] [ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com: Re: [opensuse] Getting Rid of postfix and exim on my laptop]
  76. 2008-10-24 Kevin Mark <kevin.mark-at-verizon.net> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] [ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com: Re: [opensuse] Getting
  77. 2008-10-24 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Re: [opensuse] Getting Rid of postfix and exim on my laptop
  78. 2008-10-24 Mark Simko <msimko-at-optonline.net> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Re: [opensuse] Getting Rid of postfix and exim
  79. 2008-10-24 From: "Ronny Abraham" <ronny.coder-at-gmail.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Re: [opensuse] Getting Rid of postfix and exim on my laptop
  80. 2008-10-24 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Re: [opensuse] Getting Rid of postfix and exim on my laptop
  81. 2008-10-24 Amy Coleman <acoleman-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] GNU/Android Linux (Google) phones
  82. 2008-10-24 Amy Coleman <acoleman-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] GNU/Android Linux (Google) phones
  83. 2008-10-24 Ron Guerin <ron-at-vnetworx.net> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] GNU/Android Linux (Google) phones
  84. 2008-10-25 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Ice Age NYC
  85. 2008-10-25 From: "Ronny Abraham" <ronny.coder-at-gmail.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] GNU/Android Linux (Google) phones
  86. 2008-10-25 Amy Coleman <acoleman-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] GNU/Android Linux (Google) phones
  87. 2008-10-25 Tameek <tameek-at-gmail.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] GNU/Android Linux (Google) phones
  88. 2008-10-26 Ron Guerin <ron-at-vnetworx.net> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] GNU/Android Linux (Google) phones
  89. 2008-10-26 Amy Coleman <acoleman-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] GNU/Android Linux (Google) phones
  90. 2008-10-26 From: "Ronny Abraham" <ronny.coder-at-gmail.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] GNU/Android Linux (Google) phones
  91. 2008-10-26 From: "Ronny Abraham" <ronny.coder-at-gmail.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] GNU/Android Linux (Google) phones
  92. 2008-10-26 From: "Joshua Zeidner" <jjzeidner-at-gmail.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] GNU/Android Linux (Google) phones
  93. 2008-10-26 From: "Ronny Abraham" <ronny.coder-at-gmail.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] GNU/Android Linux (Google) phones
  94. 2008-10-26 From: "Joshua Zeidner" <jjzeidner-at-gmail.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] GNU/Android Linux (Google) phones
  95. 2008-10-26 From: "Ronny Abraham" <ronny.coder-at-gmail.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] GNU/Android Linux (Google) phones
  96. 2008-10-26 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] [jtg-at-intarcorp.com: Linux Education - New York Linux Scene]
  97. 2008-10-26 From: "Joshua Zeidner" <jjzeidner-at-gmail.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] GNU/Android Linux (Google) phones
  98. 2008-10-27 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Internet Hall of Fame event
  99. 2008-10-28 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] [Fwd: [linux-elitists] Fwd: Need a Linux device driver.]
  100. 2008-10-28 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Google, Books, Fairuse and Copyrights
  101. 2008-10-29 Elfen Magix <elfen_magix-at-yahoo.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Moving MySQL
  102. 2008-10-31 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] new members
  103. 2008-10-31 Elfen Magix <elfen_magix-at-yahoo.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] new members
  104. 2008-10-31 From: "Michael L. Richardson" <mlr52-at-mycouponmagic.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] new members
  105. 2008-10-31 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] [legcalendar-at-council.nyc.ny.us: City Council Calendar - Week of November 2nd]

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