MESSAGE
| DATE | 2014-08-27 |
| FROM | Ruben Safir
|
| SUBJECT | Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] BS versus MS cont...
|
On Wed, Aug 27, 2014 at 04:09:51AM -0400, Bryan J Smith wrote:
> > > I remember being confused by the amount of calculus involved, and to
> > > this day, I still haven't used any of it. I think there's a danger of
> > > wanting to give people a "well-rounded" education when it really doesn't
> > > help you in employment situations.
> >
>
> ???Huh? This is the second time this has been mentioned, and I don't
> understand it.
>
> All I used in college was calculus ... for everything. Not just physics,
> analysis, environmental impact, mechanics, discrete/linear/???DSP (CS/EE/CpE
> flavors), signals/fields, etc... but also statistics, microeconomics,
> management/risk even resource geography (actually came in very handy in two
> jobs). In addition to the 12 semester hours of calculus (4 classes) itself
> and 12+4 semester class+labs hours of chemistry+physics, I had 96 hours of
> pre-core+core/option+specialty (general/EE+CpE) engineering that was all
> calculus. I think I had a whole 5 classes, 15 semester hours, of "general
> ed" (2x compsition, 2x history and philosophy) that did not use it.
>
I went to my daughters wedding and my ex-wife's nephew went to Marquette
engineering school ( http://www.marquette.edu/engineering/ ), probably
one of the best in the country. He has a degree in electrical engineers
and Computer Information systems. He graduated about 4 years ago and I
asked him what he is doing and he is doing dot net web programming for a
web company who specialized in adjustable websites. I was deflated. He
is not using any of his advanced skills.
I ahd a kid, a brillant programmer, when I was working at NYU. He was
in the joint Comp/Sci Electrical engineering program at Stephens and
NYU. Brillent kid. The last I heard he was happily programming in dot
net for MLB downtown and well fed.
OTOH, any of us who have been around have noticed that dot something dot
com technology of the day coders come and go and tend to get unemployeed
and schooled out pretty damn fast. So I'm with you Bryan. the closer
one is the hardware, the scientific edge and lower level coding, the
happier your job is and the safer is your long term job security. I
know it and you know it. And those damn math skills REALLY do make you
a better coder. I remember cutting through programming problems with
Calc II integration and astonishing the boss, but it is not always the
case and it is rare.
The truth of the matter is that this is going to be a somewhat economic
decision on my part. The kids are gone and I'm alone and I need to
restart. However, I'm 51 years old. For one thing, it is just hard to
be treated like a 20 year old kid living at home with his parents, such
is like what CUNY will do. I need to essentially live off of loans for
a little while. And I want to teach. I think going for the imperfect
Masters Degree is my best economic option. I'm going to have to come
back around and pick up the math somehow, because I know it is
essential.
But City Tech also has a Computer technology program that essentially
puts you through a broad swath of technology programs to include
Computer Systems
Technology
Professor Hong Li, Chair
Namm Hall, room N 914
718.260.5170
email: hli-at-citytech.cuny.edu
PROGRAMS:
Computer Information Systems/AAS
Computer Systems/BTech
FACULTY:
Professor: Braneky, Cabo, X. Li
Associate Professors: Bellehsen, H. Li, Malyuta, Pinto
Assistant Professors: Elhadary, Moody, Oudjehane, Satyanarayana,
Shahidullah, Shen
Lecturers: Archibald, Holley, Milonas, Simmons, Viglina
CLTs: Duong, Graham, Liu, Rodney
Associate in Applied Science in
COMPUTER INFORMATION SYSTEMS
The associate in applied science (AAS) in Computer Information
System (CIS) prepares students for entry level careers in: computer
programming, database programming and administration, web
programming, and systems/network administration and support.
It also provides students with a solid foundation in the field of
computer systems which enables them to make a seamless transition
to the bachelor of technology in Computer Systems. This curriculum is
well balanced between the technical requirements and the liberal arts
requirements. The curriculum also introduces students to the business
world. Students are required to complete a semester of accounting
and a semester in business management, to provide familiarity with
the contexts in which computer systems are commonly used.
General Education Common Core 1, 2
22 credits
I ??? Required Core (4 courses, 13 credits)
English Composition (2 courses, 6 credits)
COMPUTER SYSTEMS TECHNOLOGY ENG 1101 English Composition I 3
ENG 1121 English Composition II 3
The Computer Systems Technology Department offers two degree
Mathematical and Quantitative Reasoning (1 course, 4 credits)
programs: AAS in Computer Information Systems, and bachelor
of technology (BTech) in Computer Systems. The department also
offers a variety of computer courses for students in other curricula.
Some of these courses are designed for students in specific majors
such as accounting, telecommunications technology or legal
assistant studies, while some are intended to provide computer
literacy to students in any major.
The Computer Systems Technology Department programs
prepare graduates for positions in the information technology
industry by:
??? ffering a combination of courses that emphasize both the
theoretical and practical foundation in computing.
??? ffering the student a choice of sub-specialization in both
established and emerging technologies within the computer field.
??? mphasizing a ???hands-on??? approach in all aspects of the
curriculum including a required ???capstone??? internship course in
the BTech program.
??? djusting and upgrading curriculum and lab equipment on a
timely basis for changes in computer technology.
rogression Requirements in the Associate and/or
P
Bachelor Programs
A grade of ???C??? or better in each course designated with the
prefix MST and/or CST will be required for progression towards
graduation.
MAT 1375
or higher 3 Precalculus
4
Life and Physical Sciences (1 course, 3 credits)
Any Approved Course
3
II ??? Flexible Core (3 courses, 9 credits)
In addition to the required courses listed below,
select one course from any of the other four areas. 3
World Cultures and Global Issues
Any Approved Course
US Experience in its Diversity
Any Approved Course
Individual and Society
PSY 1101
Introduction to Psychology
3
Creative Expression
Any Approved Course
Scientific World
Any Approved Course
One additional course from any group
COM 1330
Public Speaking
or higher
3
Writing Intensive Requirement
Students at New York City College of Technology must complete two
courses designated WI for the associate level, one from GenEd and
one from the major; and two additional courses designated WI for the
baccalaureate level, one from GenEd and one from the major.Back to Table
of Contents ??
Program-Specific Degree Requirements
38 credits
CST 1100 Introduction to Computer Systems 3
CST 1101 Problem Solving with Computer Programming 3
CST 1201 Programming Fundamentals 3
CST 1204 Database Systems Fundamentals 3
CST 1215 Operating Systems Fundamentals 3
CST 2307 Networking Fundamentals 3
CST 2309 Web Programming I 3
CST 2400 Computer Systems Management and Support 3
CST 2410 Introduction to Computer Security 3
CST 2801 Special Topics in Information Technology 1
Subtotal 28
Choose one elective from the following list: 3
CST 2301 Multimedia and Mobile Device Programming
CST 2405 System Administration (Windows)
CST 2406 Introduction to Systems Analysis and Design
CST 2409 Web Programming II
CST 2415 System Administration (UNIX/Linux)
CST 2900 AAS Internship
This is the only comprehensive curriculum in CUNY that addresses
the specific needs of the information technology (IT) industry by
integrating theory, hands-on experience and industry exposure
to applied skills through a required internship degree program
component. It provides the student with the flexibility of choice in
specialization areas:
??? Database Systems
??? Networking and Security
??? IT Operation
??? Software Development
The program???s structures will allow for timely changes in
specialization course offerings as the information technology
field evolves.
oals of the Bachelor of Technology in
G
Computer Systems
??? rovide highly qualified professionals who can understand, apply,
manage and anticipate cutting-edge technology,
Additional Required Courses
ACC 1101 Principles of Accounting 4
BUS 2425 Business Management 3
MAT 1375 Precalculus
Met as GenEd
Core Courses
ENG 1101 English Composition I Met as GenEd
ENG 1121 English Composition II Met as GenEd
PSY 1101 Introduction to Psychology Met as GenEd
COM 1330
Public Speaking
or higher
Bachelor of Technology in
COMPUTER SYSTEMS
Met as GenEd
REQUIRED CORE Life and Physical Sciences 3
FLEXIBLE CORE World Cultures and Global Issues 3
Subtotal
??? repare marketable candidates for positions in the information
technology field,
??? rovide students with the command of applied skills in
technical fields that require a solid foundation in scientific
and mathematical theory as well as excellent communications,
problem-solving and critical-thinking skills, allowing students to
anticipate the direction of technology, not just to follow it,
??? rovide graduates of related AAS programs in computer systems
the opportunity to transfer into this program and earn a BTech
degree required for progression in and graduation from the
Computer Systems BTech program.
18
Total program-specific required and elective courses 38
Total NYSED Liberal Arts and Science credits 22
TOTAL CREDITS REQUIRED FOR THE DEGREE 60
1 Although students enrolled in AAS programs are not required to meet
all of
the CUNY Pathways requirements, the college and program general
education
requirements are organized by Pathways categories to inform students of
their
standing should they transfer to a CUNY baccalaureate program.
2 Specific courses listed are degree requirements that also meet CUNY
Pathways
general education requirements in that category.
3 Students without the requisite math background to enter MAT 1375 will
be
required to take MAT 1175 and/or MAT 1275 in preparation. This will
increase the
number of required credits for the degree by 4-8 credits.
General Education Common Core
43 credits
I ??? Required Core 1 (4 courses, 13 credits)
English Composition (2 courses, 6 credits)
ENG 1101* English Composition I 3
ENG 1121 English Composition II 3
Mathematical and Quantitative Reasoning (1 course, 4 credits)
MAT 1375
or higher *,2 Precalculus
Life and Physical Sciences (1 course, 3 credits)
Any Approved Course
II ??? Flexible Core (6 courses, 18 credits)
World Cultures and Global Issues
Any Approved Course
4Back to Table of Contents ??
US Experience in its Diversity Choose one elective from the following
list:
Any Approved Course CST 2301 Multimedia and Mobile Device
Programming
CST 2405 System Administration (Windows)
CST 2406 Introduction to Systems Analysis and Design
CST 2409 Web Programming II
CST 2415 System Administration (UNIX/Linux)
CST 2900 AAS Internship
Individual and Society
PSY 1101*
Introduction to Psychology
Creative Expression
Any Approved Course
Scientific World
Baccalaureate-Level Degree Requirements (39 credits)
Any Approved Course
Courses common to all tracks
One additional course from any group
PSY 2404
Personnel and Organizational Psychology
3
III ??? College Option requirementS 3 (12 credits)
3
???O
ne interdisciplinary Liberal Arts and Sciences course
Any Approved Course
CST 4800
CST 4900
CST 4905
Project Management
Internship
or
Information Systems Project
3
3
Students must complete all courses in one of the following four tracks:
???O
ne course in Speech/Oral Communication
COM 1330* Public Speaking or other
3
3
???A
dditional liberal arts credits to reach a minimum of
42 credits in general education.
In meeting their general education requirements overall,
students must take at least one advanced liberal arts course
or two sequential courses in a foreign language.
MAT 2440 Discrete Structures and Algorithms I 3
MAT 2540 Discrete Structures and Algorithms II 3
Writing Intensive Requirement
Database
CST 3504 Database Design 3
CST 2406 Introduction to Systems Analysis and Design 3
CST 3606 or
Object-Oriented Systems Analysis and Design
CST 3604 Quality Database Implementation 3
CST 3613 Application Development with Database 3
CST 4704 Data Warehousing 3
CST 4714 Database Administration 3
CST 4724 Data on The Web 3
Two Electives Elective courses shall be chosen from any CST 35xx,
6
CST 36xx and CST 47xx in the four tracks and
CST 3520 Computer Forensics, CST 4706 Software
Development Methodologies and CST 4701
Game Programming if prerequisites are met.
Students at New York City College of Technology must complete two
courses designated WI for the associate level, one from GenEd and
one from the major; and two additional courses designated WI for the
baccalaureate level, one from GenEd and one from the major.
Networking and Security
CST 2405
CST 2415 Systems Administration (Windows) 3
or
Systems Administration (UNIX/Linux)
CST 3507 Advanced Single-LAN Concepts 3
CST 3523 Task Automation in System Administration 3
CST 3607 Interconnectivity 3
CST 3610 Network Security Fundamentals 3
Program-Specific Degree Requirements
Associate-Level Degree Requirements (38 credits)
CST 1100 Introduction to Computer Systems 3 CST 4707
The LAN-Internet Connection 3
CST 1101 Problem Solving with Computer Programming 3 CST
4710 Advanced Security Technologies 3
CST 1201 Programming Fundamentals 3 CST 4715
Advanced Topics in System Administration 3
One Elective Elective courses shall be chosen from any CST 35xx,
3
CST 36xx and CST 47xx in the four tracks and
CST 3520 Computer Forensics, CST 4706 Software
Development Methodologies and CST 4701
Game Programming if prerequisites are met.
CST 1204 Database Systems Fundamentals 3 CST 1215
Operating Systems Fundamentals 3 CST 2307 Networking Fundamentals
3 CST 2309 Web Programming I 3 CST 2400 Computer
Systems Management and Support 3 IT Operations
CST
2410 Introduction to Computer Security 3
CST 2801 Special Topics in Information Technology 1 ACC
1101 Principles of Accounting 4 BUS 2425 Business
Management 3
CST 2405
CST 2415 Systems Administration (Windows) 3
or
Systems Administration (UNIX/LINUX)
CST 3507 Advanced Single-LAN Concepts 3
CST 3605 Virtualization 3
CST 3610 Network Security Fundamentals 3
CST 3615 Enterprise Applications 3
CST 4700 IT Service Management 3
CST 4709 Installing and Maintaining Web Servers 3
Back to Table of Contents ??
CST 4714 Database Administration 3
One Elective Elective courses shall be chosen from any CST 35xx,
3
CST 36xx and CST 47xx in the four tracks and
CST 3520 Computer Forensics, CST 4706 Software
Development Methodologies and CST 4701
Game Programming if prerequisites are met.
CST 1000
Foundations of Computing
Software Development
CST 2301 Multimedia and Mobile Device Programming 3
CST 3513 Object-Oriented Programming 3
CST 3519 Advanced Web Client Technologies 3
CST 3606 Object-Oriented Systems Analysis and Design 3
CST 3613 Application Development with Databases 3
CST 4708 Software Development and .NET Framework 3
CST 4713 Dynamic Web Development: Servlets and JSP 3
Two Electives Elective courses shall be chosen from any CST 35xx,
6
CST 36xx and CST 47xx in the four tracks and
CST 3520 Computer Forensics, CST 4706 Software
Development Methodologies and CST 4701
Game Programming if prerequisites are met.
(If a student already took the course as part of
AAS degree requirement, he/she will need to take
another 3 credit elective course)
Additional Program-Specific Requirements
BUS 3525
Strategic Management
3
COM 1330 Met as GenEd
Public Speaking
or higher
ENG 1101 English Composition I Met as GenEd
Met as GenEd
ENG 1121 English Composition II ENG 3773 Advanced
Technical Writing MAT 1375 Precalculus Met as GenEd
MAT 2440 Discrete Structures and Algorithms I Met as GenEd
MAT 2540 Discrete Structures and Algorithms II Met as GenEd
PSY 1101 Introduction to Psychology Met as GenEd
PSY 2404 Personnel and Organizational Met as GenEd
Psychology
3
Total program-specific required and elective courses
Total NYSED Liberal Arts and Science credits
TOTAL CREDITS REQUIRED FOR THE DEGREE
COURSES:
77
43
120
* Courses required for associate degree.
1 Specific courses listed are degree requirements that also meet CUNY
Pathways
general education requirements in that category.
2 Students without the requisite math background to enter MAT 1375 will
be
required to take MAT 1175 and/or MAT 1275 in preparation. This will
increase the
number of required credits for the degree by 4-8 credits.
3 Complete lists of liberal arts and sciences courses and advanced
liberal arts
courses, as well as semester-specific lists of interdisciplinary courses
and writing
intensive courses, are available online at the City Tech Pathways
website.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Really, for the money is it a GREAT school. I just don't think I can be
helped with anothers bachelours degree.
> Now ... there might be an explanation for that. If you attend a college
> that is an "Technology," but PhD-level research institution, you tend to
> get calculus-based everything -- economics, statistics, management/risk,
> etc... Some schools require it for just engineering, while others require
> it for any science-based degree. My Alma Mater (UCF, originally founded as
> FTU, an engineering college under a NASA space grant during Apollo) only
> requires 100% calculus-based "pre-core" classes for engineers. As I
> understand it, Georgia Tech and other "Institute of Technologies" are
> notorious for requiring a number of math, statistics and even CS majors to
> take engineering pre-core with 100% calculus-based classes which are shared
> with an engineering "pre-core" track.
>
It has to do with many factors and I don't think they can be
individualized. A lot of it has to do with job oppurtunities, social
connections and circles and the individual's personailty.
Social Circles is an enormous influence and it is why Harvard is
Harvard. But what are you going to do? LIU is talking about a blended
program where much of it is taught on-line with "blackboard". That is
about fucking useless. You have to make those connections in College if
you plan to launch that career!
> ???It really depends on the institution, but even today, I cannot imagine
> life without knowing calculus.
>
> E.g., rate of change in the US deficit is a 2nd order differential from
> overall debt -- and that's very elementary calculus. But I can ???understand
> how most Americans don't get that, and why 2000 -- despite having a net,
> although small, surplus -- was a very, very bad time for the economy, which
> led to some of the biggest layoffs in US history during Q1 of 2001 (jobs
> are the last to lose and last to come back).
>
> > The question is probably along the lines of "what do you want to be when
> > > you grow up?" Theoretical and practical computing are still two wildly
> > > different things, maybe even more so now. What's the goal here?
> > > Education because that's fun, or to get a job at the end of it? Is it
> > > programmer or CTO? Tech advocate? Circuit designer? There are so many
> > > specialities now; unless you're working for yourself, an employer will
> > > probably be most interested in how you can help them, and that's often
> > > in one specific area. Having a great breadth of knowledge is cool, but
> > > being an expert at something tends to get you paid.
> >
>
> ???That's interesting because most of my colleagues that majored in
> Industrial Engineering are all upper-level administrators in major
> corporations, and one is a C-level in a moderately sized company. I cannot
> imagine microeconomics, much more risk management, without calculus.
>
> E.g., "Linear Feedback" isn't just an Electrical Engineering (EE) concept,
> but applies to not just risk, but CS' concepts of "discrete systems" as
> well as elementary digital signals.** You cannot build a system of
> equations for that interaction without calculus.
>
> This "theory v. practical" argument really falls flat on its face with me.
> That "Generation D" Sprint commercial they used to push used to make me
> laugh, because the world is very much analog. I had an advisor in college
> tell me I shouldn't switch away from Electrical Engineering to avoid
> signals and fields because analog is still everything. And he was right.
>
> I only wished I would have went after jobs in Fields because that
> experience is extremely and heavily sought after in today's wireless world.
> Even though I only worked in aerospace and semiconductor a small part of
> my career (6 years total), I do like being at a client and not only knowing
> what the heck they are talking about. I can even relate IT-centric closet
> and risk to them as well, instead of just talking with words.
>
> Even just my elementary statistical courses + past engineering work alone
> allowed me to garner great respect at several clients with researchers
> doing a lot of heavy analysis. E.g., it's much easier to understand SAS
> and R if you have such a background, and they are in heavy use in many
> divisions of many corporations and government.
>
> Which brings me to the Asimov and Sagan worries that if we don't keep
> teaching our future workers and leaders how to do basic -- not theoretical,
> but "basic" -- math and science, they will quickly forget how to build
> things. In fact we're pretty much reached that point with nuclear power
> plants, and only the US Navy (military) and French (commercial) being the
> sole authorities on the matter these days.
>
> -- bjs
> _______________________________________________
> nylug-talk mailing list
> nylug-talk-at-nylug.org
> http://mail.nylug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/nylug-talk
--
So many immigrant groups have swept through our town
that Brooklyn, like Atlantis, reaches mythological
proportions in the mind of the world - RI Safir 1998
http://www.mrbrklyn.com
DRM is THEFT - We are the STAKEHOLDERS - RI Safir 2002
http://www.nylxs.com - Leadership Development in Free Software
http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/resources - Unpublished Archive
http://www.coinhangout.com - coins!
http://www.brooklyn-living.com
Being so tracked is for FARM ANIMALS and and extermination camps,
but incompatible with living as a free human being. -RI Safir 2013
----- End forwarded message -----
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