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DATE 2015-02-01

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MESSAGE
DATE 2015-02-26
FROM Ruben Safir
SUBJECT Subject: [LIU Comp Sci] [mrbrklyn@panix.com: (fwd) Re: Role of functional dependencies in
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Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2015 07:11:11 -0500
From: Ruben Safir
To: learn-at-nylxs.com
Subject: [LIU Comp Sci] [mrbrklyn-at-panix.com: (fwd) Re: Role of functional dependencies in
database design]
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----- Forwarded message from Ruben Safir -----

Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2015 07:08:28 -0500 (EST)
From: Ruben Safir
To: mrbrklyn-at-panix.com
Subject: (fwd) Re: Role of functional dependencies in database design
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Path: reader1.panix.com!panix!goblin2!goblin.stu.neva.ru!newsgate.cuhk.edu.hk!news.netfront.net!nvitacolonna
From: Nicola
Newsgroups: comp.databases.theory
Subject: Re: Role of functional dependencies in database design
Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2015 22:43:20 +0100
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Xref: panix comp.databases.theory:75527

In article ,
Erwin wrote:

> My question, and what I would like to understand is : what exactly is the
> available input (its semantics and in which possible syntactic forms does it
> appear, and where) that allows this "discovery" to be made ? I think JKL's
> post where he used the word "pesky" expressed the very same concern.

Formally, FDs are axioms. As such, *within* the formal system they are
given facts, but the discovery must happen *outside* the formal system.
Hence, the available input cannot be described formally (or, if it can,
it will be in a different formal system that will have its own axioms).

You don't have any difficulty with the process of "discovering" keys, do
you? I don't see the process of "discovering" other constraints as
intrinsically different.

> >
> > >> FDs are a special type of first-order formulas. I can imagine >>
> > defining
> > >> an English-like syntax for them.
> >
> > (Not that it would necessarily be a good idea, I should add.)
> >
> > >Hmmmmmmmm.
> > >
> > >"The projection on {desert island, can opener} of the join of all
> > >tables in the database, represents a function from desert island to can
> > >opener."
> >
> > Well no, like this certainly no :) Maybe something along these lines
> > (paraphrasing the given-when-then constructs existing in some testing
> > tools):
> >
> > given two lecturers L1 and L2 and a time T
> > when L1 is teaching at time T and L2 is teaching at time T
> > then L1 and L2 are in different rooms
>
> Well, there you have it. If you think that this sentence indicates an FD
> {L,T} -> {room}

Of course not.

> The correct conclusion here is the FD {room,T} -> {L}.

Yes.

> But before spotting
> that, I first had to twist the requirement into "only one lecturer can be in
> any given room at any time". Or "if two observations of a lecturer being in
> a room at time T, both involve the same room and the same time T, then they
> involve the same lecturer". But (knowing what the FD turned out to be and
> looking back on the natural language formulation) I find those alternatives
> only slightly less convoluted than your original.

I said not to take this example too seriously ;) The point of a
hypothetical specification in natural language is that you should not
bother with the mathematical formulation of the corresponding FD,
because the system would take care of it. My example may fail miserably
in being higher level compared to the corresponding FD, but that does
not mean much. If you had a program that takes as input the sentence "no
two teachers can teach in the same room at the same time" and outputs
the schema Teaches(room, time, teacher) with key {room, time} as
output, would you be satisfied? :)

Nicola

--- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: news-at-netfront.net ---
-- end of forwarded message --

----- End forwarded message -----

  1. 2015-02-01 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Re: [LIU Comp Sci] DMA memory and CPU activity
  2. 2015-02-01 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Re: [LIU Comp Sci] DMA memory and CPU activity
  3. 2015-02-01 Ruben <ruben.safir-at-my.liu.edu> Subject: [LIU Comp Sci] DMA memory and CPU activity
  4. 2015-02-02 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Re: [LIU Comp Sci] DMA memory and CPU activity
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  7. 2015-02-02 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Re: [LIU Comp Sci] study hall today
  8. 2015-02-02 Kamran <kamran.mirzayev-at-my.liu.edu> Re: [LIU Comp Sci] [announce-at-lists.isoc-ny.org: [isoc-ny] Two NYC
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  13. 2015-02-02 Ruben <ruben.safir-at-my.liu.edu> Subject: [LIU Comp Sci] Re: Operating System History
  14. 2015-02-02 Ruben <ruben.safir-at-my.liu.edu> Subject: [LIU Comp Sci] Re: Operating System History
  15. 2015-02-02 mrbrklyn-at-panix.com Subject: [LIU Comp Sci] [announce-at-lists.isoc-ny.org: [isoc-ny] Two NYC meetups Tuesday]
  16. 2015-02-03 Ruben <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Re: [LIU Comp Sci] [announce-at-lists.isoc-ny.org: [isoc-ny] Two NYC
  17. 2015-02-04 Tony Genao <tony.genao-at-my.liu.edu> Re: [LIU Comp Sci] Compus Meeting
  18. 2015-02-04 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Re: [LIU Comp Sci] Compus Meeting
  19. 2015-02-04 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Re: [LIU Comp Sci] Compus Meeting
  20. 2015-02-04 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Re: [LIU Comp Sci] [announce-at-lists.isoc-ny.org: [isoc-ny] Two NYC
  21. 2015-02-04 Tony Genao <tony.genao-at-my.liu.edu> Re: [LIU Comp Sci] [announce-at-lists.isoc-ny.org: [isoc-ny] Two NYC
  22. 2015-02-04 Kamran <kamran.mirzayev-at-my.liu.edu> Re: [LIU Comp Sci] [announce-at-lists.isoc-ny.org: [isoc-ny] Two NYC
  23. 2015-02-04 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Re: [LIU Comp Sci] [announce-at-lists.isoc-ny.org: [isoc-ny] Two NYC
  24. 2015-02-04 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [LIU Comp Sci] (fwd) Operating System Design
  25. 2015-02-04 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [LIU Comp Sci] (fwd) Operating System Design
  26. 2015-02-04 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [LIU Comp Sci] (fwd) Operating System Design
  27. 2015-02-04 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [LIU Comp Sci] (fwd) Operating System Design
  28. 2015-02-04 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [LIU Comp Sci] (fwd) Operating System Design
  29. 2015-02-04 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [LIU Comp Sci] (fwd) Operating System Design
  30. 2015-02-04 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [LIU Comp Sci] (fwd) Operating System Design
  31. 2015-02-04 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [LIU Comp Sci] (fwd) Operating System Design
  32. 2015-02-04 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [LIU Comp Sci] (fwd) Re: Operating System Design
  33. 2015-02-04 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [LIU Comp Sci] (fwd) Re: Operating System Design
  34. 2015-02-04 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [LIU Comp Sci] (fwd) Re: Operating System Design
  35. 2015-02-04 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [LIU Comp Sci] (fwd) Re: Operating System Design
  36. 2015-02-04 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [LIU Comp Sci] (fwd) Re: Operating System Design
  37. 2015-02-04 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [LIU Comp Sci] (fwd) Re: Operating System Design
  38. 2015-02-04 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [LIU Comp Sci] algorithms pop tarts
  39. 2015-02-04 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [LIU Comp Sci] cgroups meeting
  40. 2015-02-04 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [LIU Comp Sci] Compus Meeting
  41. 2015-02-04 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [LIU Comp Sci] Essentail Database tools
  42. 2015-02-04 Ruben <ruben.safir-at-my.liu.edu> Subject: [LIU Comp Sci] tony
  43. 2015-02-04 mrbrklyn-at-panix.com Subject: [LIU Comp Sci] [info-at-fsf.org: Gorgeous animated video against DRM]
  44. 2015-02-05 Tony Genao <tony.genao-at-my.liu.edu> Re: [LIU Comp Sci] tony
  45. 2015-02-05 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Re: [LIU Comp Sci] tony
  46. 2015-02-05 Tony Genao <tony.genao-at-my.liu.edu> Re: [LIU Comp Sci] tony
  47. 2015-02-05 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [LIU Comp Sci] SOC assignment
  48. 2015-02-05 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [LIU Comp Sci] [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Very Good Jobs
  49. 2015-02-07 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [LIU Comp Sci] [mrbrklyn-at-panix.com: (fwd) Re: why not use naked delete ?]
  50. 2015-02-07 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [LIU Comp Sci] [mrbrklyn-at-panix.com: (fwd) Re: why not use naked delete ?]
  51. 2015-02-07 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [LIU Comp Sci] [mrbrklyn-at-panix.com: (fwd) Re: why not use naked delete ?]
  52. 2015-02-08 mrbrklyn-at-panix.com Subject: [LIU Comp Sci] Double Stacks
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  55. 2015-02-09 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [LIU Comp Sci] Fwd: Invitation: cgroups and cgroups v2
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  57. 2015-02-10 Ruben <ruben.safir-at-my.liu.edu> Subject: [LIU Comp Sci] Fwd: operating systems design
  58. 2015-02-10 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [LIU Comp Sci] Student Computer Sciences Study Center
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  66. 2015-02-11 Ruben <ruben.safir-at-my.liu.edu> Subject: [LIU Comp Sci] Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Friday Morning Volunteer
  67. 2015-02-11 Ruben <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [LIU Comp Sci] Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Friday Morning Volunteer
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  71. 2015-02-12 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [LIU Comp Sci] Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Friday Morning Volunteer
  72. 2015-02-12 mrbrklyn-at-panix.com Subject: [LIU Comp Sci] [announce-at-lists.isoc-ny.org: =?utf-8?Q?=5B?=
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  74. 2015-02-13 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [LIU Comp Sci] Fwd: Re: Operating Systems (CS_643_001_BK_SPRG2015): Next Meeting
  75. 2015-02-15 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Re: [LIU Comp Sci] Friday Morning Volunteer
  76. 2015-02-15 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [LIU Comp Sci] Re: Journal Article
  77. 2015-02-16 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [LIU Comp Sci] Home Works
  78. 2015-02-17 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [LIU Comp Sci] OS Class Ctp 2 Dtrace
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  80. 2015-02-18 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [LIU Comp Sci] Recursive Allorithms
  81. 2015-02-19 From: "keisha.sylvester" <keisha.sylvester-at-my.liu.edu> RE: [LIU Comp Sci] Hwk4 Allorithms
  82. 2015-02-19 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Re: [LIU Comp Sci] Hwk4 Allorithms
  83. 2015-02-19 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [LIU Comp Sci] Midterm Exams Samples
  84. 2015-02-20 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [LIU Comp Sci] a little C++ insite
  85. 2015-02-22 Ruben <ruben.safir-at-my.liu.edu> Re: [LIU Comp Sci] Binary tree Excersize
  86. 2015-02-22 Ruben <ruben.safir-at-my.liu.edu> Re: [LIU Comp Sci] Binary tree Excersize
  87. 2015-02-22 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Re: [LIU Comp Sci] Binary tree Excersize
  88. 2015-02-22 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [LIU Comp Sci] Binary tree Excersize
  89. 2015-02-23 From: "keisha.sylvester" <keisha.sylvester-at-my.liu.edu> RE: Re: [LIU Comp Sci] Binary tree Excersize
  90. 2015-02-23 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Re: [LIU Comp Sci] Binary tree Excersize
  91. 2015-02-23 Keisha Sylvester <keisha.sylvester-at-my.liu.edu> Re: [LIU Comp Sci] Binary tree Excersize
  92. 2015-02-23 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Re: [LIU Comp Sci] Binary tree Excersize
  93. 2015-02-23 Ruben <ruben.safir-at-my.liu.edu> Re: [LIU Comp Sci] Binary tree Excersize
  94. 2015-02-23 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Re: [LIU Comp Sci] scheduler resources
  95. 2015-02-23 Maneesh Kongara <maneeshkongara-at-gmail.com> Re: [LIU Comp Sci] Study Schedule for Tuesday
  96. 2015-02-23 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Re: [LIU Comp Sci] Study Schedule for Tuesday
  97. 2015-02-23 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [LIU Comp Sci] Operating Systems Class on Friday
  98. 2015-02-23 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [LIU Comp Sci] scheduler resources
  99. 2015-02-23 Ruben <ruben.safir-at-my.liu.edu> Subject: [LIU Comp Sci] Study Schedule for Tuesday
  100. 2015-02-24 From: "keisha.sylvester" <keisha.sylvester-at-my.liu.edu> RE: Re: [LIU Comp Sci] Binary tree Excersize
  101. 2015-02-24 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Re: Re: [LIU Comp Sci] Binary tree Excersize
  102. 2015-02-24 From: "keisha.sylvester" <keisha.sylvester-at-my.liu.edu> RE: Re: [LIU Comp Sci] Study Schedule for Tuesday
  103. 2015-02-24 Maneesh Kongara <maneeshkongara-at-gmail.com> Re: [LIU Comp Sci] Binary tree Excersize
  104. 2015-02-24 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Re: [LIU Comp Sci] Binary tree Excersize
  105. 2015-02-24 Keisha Sylvester <keisha.sylvester-at-my.liu.edu> Re: [LIU Comp Sci] Study anyone??
  106. 2015-02-24 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [LIU Comp Sci] Study anyone??
  107. 2015-02-25 Ruben <ruben.safir-at-my.liu.edu> Re: [LIU Comp Sci] Binary tree Excersize
  108. 2015-02-25 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Re: [LIU Comp Sci] Binary tree Excersize
  109. 2015-02-25 Keisha Sylvester <keisha.sylvester-at-my.liu.edu> Re: [LIU Comp Sci] Binary tree Excersize
  110. 2015-02-26 Ruben <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Re: [LIU Comp Sci] Binary tree Excersize
  111. 2015-02-26 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [LIU Comp Sci] Campus
  112. 2015-02-26 Ruben <ruben.safir-at-my.liu.edu> Subject: [LIU Comp Sci] Fwd: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Bios
  113. 2015-02-26 Ruben <ruben.safir-at-my.liu.edu> Subject: [LIU Comp Sci] Re: Fwd: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Bios
  114. 2015-02-26 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [LIU Comp Sci] [mrbrklyn-at-panix.com: (fwd) Re: Role of functional dependencies in
  115. 2015-02-26 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [LIU Comp Sci] [mrbrklyn-at-panix.com: (fwd) Re: Role of functional dependencies in
  116. 2015-02-26 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [LIU Comp Sci] [mrbrklyn-at-panix.com: (fwd) Re: Role of functional dependencies in
  117. 2015-02-26 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [LIU Comp Sci] [mrbrklyn-at-panix.com: (fwd) Re: Role of functional dependencies in
  118. 2015-02-26 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [LIU Comp Sci] [mrbrklyn-at-panix.com: (fwd) Re: Role of functional dependencies in
  119. 2015-02-26 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [LIU Comp Sci] [mrbrklyn-at-panix.com: (fwd) Re: Role of functional dependencies in
  120. 2015-02-26 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [LIU Comp Sci] [mrbrklyn-at-panix.com: (fwd) Re: Role of functional dependencies in
  121. 2015-02-26 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [LIU Comp Sci] [mrbrklyn-at-panix.com: (fwd) Re: Role of functional dependencies in
  122. 2015-02-26 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [LIU Comp Sci] [mrbrklyn-at-panix.com: (fwd) Re: Role of functional dependencies in
  123. 2015-02-26 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [LIU Comp Sci] [mrbrklyn-at-panix.com: (fwd) Re: Role of functional dependencies in
  124. 2015-02-26 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [LIU Comp Sci] [mrbrklyn-at-panix.com: (fwd) Re: Role of functional dependencies in
  125. 2015-02-26 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [LIU Comp Sci] [mrbrklyn-at-panix.com: (fwd) Re: Role of functional dependencies in
  126. 2015-02-26 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [LIU Comp Sci] [mrbrklyn-at-panix.com: (fwd) Role of functional dependencies in
  127. 2015-02-26 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [mrbrklyn-at-panix.com: (fwd) Re: [LIU Comp Sci] Need tutoring on
  128. 2015-02-26 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [mrbrklyn-at-panix.com: (fwd) Re: [LIU Comp Sci] Need tutoring on
  129. 2015-02-26 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [mrbrklyn-at-panix.com: (fwd) Re: [LIU Comp Sci] Need tutoring on
  130. 2015-02-26 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [mrbrklyn-at-panix.com: (fwd) Re: [LIU Comp Sci] Need tutoring on
  131. 2015-02-27 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [LIU Comp Sci] a hate this question
  132. 2015-02-27 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [LIU Comp Sci] Allorithms Midterm
  133. 2015-02-27 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [LIU Comp Sci] Read the FUCKING NOTES
  134. 2015-02-28 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [LIU Comp Sci] Allgorithm Examination
  135. 2015-02-28 Ruben <ruben.safir-at-my.liu.edu> Subject: [LIU Comp Sci] Linked List Test Question
  136. 2015-02-28 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [LIU Comp Sci] Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Read the FUCKING NOTES
  137. 2015-02-28 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [LIU Comp Sci] [prmarino1-at-gmail.com: Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Read the FUCKING NOTES

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