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DATE 2015-02-01

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Key: id Value: 542997

Key: archive_learn Value: 2015-02-01

MESSAGE
DATE 2015-02-26
FROM Ruben Safir
SUBJECT Subject: [LIU Comp Sci] [mrbrklyn@panix.com: (fwd) Re: Role of functional dependencies in
From owner-learn-outgoing-at-mrbrklyn.com Thu Feb 26 07:11:17 2015
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Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2015 07:11:17 -0500
From: Ruben Safir
To: learn-at-nylxs.com
Subject: [LIU Comp Sci] [mrbrklyn-at-panix.com: (fwd) Re: Role of functional dependencies in
database design]
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----- Forwarded message from Ruben Safir -----

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From: Ruben Safir
To: mrbrklyn-at-panix.com
Subject: (fwd) Re: Role of functional dependencies in database design
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Subject: Re: Role of functional dependencies in database design
From: Erwin
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Xref: panix comp.databases.theory:75528

Op donderdag 12 februari 2015 22:43:24 UTC+1 schreef Nicola:
> In article <>,
> Erwin <> wrote:
>=20
> > My question, and what I would like to understand is : what exactly is t=
he=20
> > available input (its semantics and in which possible syntactic forms do=
es it=20
> > appear, and where) that allows this "discovery" to be made ? I think J=
KL's=20
> > post where he used the word "pesky" expressed the very same concern.
>=20
> Formally, FDs are axioms. As such, *within* the formal system they are=20
> given facts, but the discovery must happen *outside* the formal system.=
=20
> Hence, the available input cannot be described formally (or, if it can,=
=20
> it will be in a different formal system that will have its own axioms).
>=20
> You don't have any difficulty with the process of "discovering" keys, do=
=20
> you? I don't see the process of "discovering" other constraints as=20
> intrinsically different.
> =20
> > >=20
> > > >> FDs are a special type of first-order formulas. I can imagine >>=
=20
> > > defining=20
> > > >> an English-like syntax for them.
> > >=20
> > > (Not that it would necessarily be a good idea, I should add.)
> > >=20
> > > >Hmmmmmmmm.
> > > >
> > > >"The projection on {desert island, can opener} of the join of all=20
> > > >tables in the database, represents a function from desert island to =
can=20
> > > >opener."
> > >=20
> > > Well no, like this certainly no :) Maybe something along these lines=
=20
> > > (paraphrasing the given-when-then constructs existing in some testing=
=20
> > > tools):
> > >=20
> > > given two lecturers L1 and L2 and a time T
> > > when L1 is teaching at time T and L2 is teaching at time T
> > > then L1 and L2 are in different rooms
> >=20
> > Well, there you have it. If you think that this sentence indicates an =
FD=20
> > {L,T} -> {room}
>=20
> Of course not.
>=20
> > The correct conclusion here is the FD {room,T} -> {L}.
>=20
> Yes.
>=20
> > But before spotting=20
> > that, I first had to twist the requirement into "only one lecturer can =
be in=20
> > any given room at any time". Or "if two observations of a lecturer bei=
ng in=20
> > a room at time T, both involve the same room and the same time T, then =
they=20
> > involve the same lecturer". But (knowing what the FD turned out to be =
and=20
> > looking back on the natural language formulation) I find those alternat=
ives=20
> > only slightly less convoluted than your original.
>=20
> I said not to take this example too seriously ;) The point of a=20
> hypothetical specification in natural language is that you should not=20
> bother with the mathematical formulation of the corresponding FD,=20
> because the system would take care of it. My example may fail miserably=
=20
> in being higher level compared to the corresponding FD, but that does=20
> not mean much. If you had a program that takes as input the sentence "no=
=20
> two teachers can teach in the same room at the same time" and outputs=20
> the schema Teaches(room, time, teacher) with key {room, time} as=20
> output, would you be satisfied? :)
>=20
> Nicola
>=20
> --- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: ---

I probably would.

For what it's worth : "no two teachers can ..." immediately makes me think =
of a certain RENAME/JOIN combination that then in turn immediately makes me=
conclude "aha, a key".

But my mental process in that regard is probably heavily influenced by the =
work I've done on constraint enforcement. Give me a database [design] and =
I immediately start looking for all possible [data] faults (and their defin=
ing relational expressions). But somehow for keys, that's not the process =
I follow. I just wonder "what makes this thing unique". It's probably jus=
t too deeply instilled, but it works without FDs.
-- end of forwarded message --

----- End forwarded message -----

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  24. 2015-02-04 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [LIU Comp Sci] (fwd) Operating System Design
  25. 2015-02-04 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [LIU Comp Sci] (fwd) Operating System Design
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  101. 2015-02-24 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Re: Re: [LIU Comp Sci] Binary tree Excersize
  102. 2015-02-24 From: "keisha.sylvester" <keisha.sylvester-at-my.liu.edu> RE: Re: [LIU Comp Sci] Study Schedule for Tuesday
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  105. 2015-02-24 Keisha Sylvester <keisha.sylvester-at-my.liu.edu> Re: [LIU Comp Sci] Study anyone??
  106. 2015-02-24 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [LIU Comp Sci] Study anyone??
  107. 2015-02-25 Ruben <ruben.safir-at-my.liu.edu> Re: [LIU Comp Sci] Binary tree Excersize
  108. 2015-02-25 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Re: [LIU Comp Sci] Binary tree Excersize
  109. 2015-02-25 Keisha Sylvester <keisha.sylvester-at-my.liu.edu> Re: [LIU Comp Sci] Binary tree Excersize
  110. 2015-02-26 Ruben <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Re: [LIU Comp Sci] Binary tree Excersize
  111. 2015-02-26 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [LIU Comp Sci] Campus
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  114. 2015-02-26 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [LIU Comp Sci] [mrbrklyn-at-panix.com: (fwd) Re: Role of functional dependencies in
  115. 2015-02-26 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [LIU Comp Sci] [mrbrklyn-at-panix.com: (fwd) Re: Role of functional dependencies in
  116. 2015-02-26 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [LIU Comp Sci] [mrbrklyn-at-panix.com: (fwd) Re: Role of functional dependencies in
  117. 2015-02-26 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [LIU Comp Sci] [mrbrklyn-at-panix.com: (fwd) Re: Role of functional dependencies in
  118. 2015-02-26 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [LIU Comp Sci] [mrbrklyn-at-panix.com: (fwd) Re: Role of functional dependencies in
  119. 2015-02-26 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [LIU Comp Sci] [mrbrklyn-at-panix.com: (fwd) Re: Role of functional dependencies in
  120. 2015-02-26 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [LIU Comp Sci] [mrbrklyn-at-panix.com: (fwd) Re: Role of functional dependencies in
  121. 2015-02-26 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [LIU Comp Sci] [mrbrklyn-at-panix.com: (fwd) Re: Role of functional dependencies in
  122. 2015-02-26 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [LIU Comp Sci] [mrbrklyn-at-panix.com: (fwd) Re: Role of functional dependencies in
  123. 2015-02-26 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [LIU Comp Sci] [mrbrklyn-at-panix.com: (fwd) Re: Role of functional dependencies in
  124. 2015-02-26 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [LIU Comp Sci] [mrbrklyn-at-panix.com: (fwd) Re: Role of functional dependencies in
  125. 2015-02-26 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [LIU Comp Sci] [mrbrklyn-at-panix.com: (fwd) Re: Role of functional dependencies in
  126. 2015-02-26 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [LIU Comp Sci] [mrbrklyn-at-panix.com: (fwd) Role of functional dependencies in
  127. 2015-02-26 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [mrbrklyn-at-panix.com: (fwd) Re: [LIU Comp Sci] Need tutoring on
  128. 2015-02-26 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [mrbrklyn-at-panix.com: (fwd) Re: [LIU Comp Sci] Need tutoring on
  129. 2015-02-26 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [mrbrklyn-at-panix.com: (fwd) Re: [LIU Comp Sci] Need tutoring on
  130. 2015-02-26 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [mrbrklyn-at-panix.com: (fwd) Re: [LIU Comp Sci] Need tutoring on
  131. 2015-02-27 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [LIU Comp Sci] a hate this question
  132. 2015-02-27 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [LIU Comp Sci] Allorithms Midterm
  133. 2015-02-27 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [LIU Comp Sci] Read the FUCKING NOTES
  134. 2015-02-28 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [LIU Comp Sci] Allgorithm Examination
  135. 2015-02-28 Ruben <ruben.safir-at-my.liu.edu> Subject: [LIU Comp Sci] Linked List Test Question
  136. 2015-02-28 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [LIU Comp Sci] Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Read the FUCKING NOTES
  137. 2015-02-28 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [LIU Comp Sci] [prmarino1-at-gmail.com: Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Read the FUCKING NOTES

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