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DATE 2017-02-01

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Key: id Value: 546047

Key: archive Value: 2017-02-01

MESSAGE
DATE 2017-02-17
FROM Rick Moen
SUBJECT Re: [Hangout-NYLXS] aptget: | | it was not wasted !
From hangout-bounces-at-nylxs.com Fri Feb 17 16:20:00 2017
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From: Rick Moen
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Quoting Mancini, Sabin (DFS) (Sabin.Mancini-at-dfs.ny.gov):

> RM: Even though I don't anticipate encountering this issue, I read
> it carefully and tried to absorb and comprehend it. I will also put
> it in my Linux reference binder. So it was not wasted !

Having a reference binder's a good idea. I may start suggesting to
newcomers serious about learning Linux that they start keeping a Mancini
file (like the Foley Files described by Heinlein in _Double Star_,
except about technology rather than contacts).

Third-party .deb or .rpm repos (and Ubuntu's cute little walled garden
of PPAs at ppa.launchpad.net) are oft-mentioned candidate solutions to a
common and more _general_ problem: 'My Linux distribution doesn't seem
to have a package for $FOO.'

Sometimes, $FOO _is_ distro-packaged, but the user wants (or _thinks_ he/she
wants) a much more recent version that is being dangled to the public by
the upstream developer. Other times, $FOO just isn't available packaged
for that distro, as with Firefox being unpackaged for Trisquel.
Newcomers grappling with this problem are prone to trying very strange
things while floundering around looking for a solution. Often, they end
up breaking their Linux installations in various gruesome ways.

And they (often) do that _because_ they don't understand the role of
package maintainers and of distro software policies.
http://www.advogato.org/article/169.html And that is why I see far too
many people, including Linux veterans who ought to know better, saying
'Oh, I'll just compile an upstream source tarball in /usr/local .'

It even came up repeatedly in otherwise good articles for _Linux
Gazette_ when I was one of the magazine's editors. Quoting one of my =

editorial footnotes:
http://linuxmafia.com/~rick/weatherwax.html#1 =


[1] Rick Moen comments: While it's useful and worthwhile to know about
a program's "upstream" development site, where (among other things) the
author's latest source code can be downloaded, there are a few
disadvantages that should be noted (and some alternative locations that
should be usually be preferred, instead, if such are findable):

1. Absent extraordinary measures on your part, your Linux distribution's
package-tracking system won't know about the program's presence on your
system. Therefore, it won't know to avoid installing conflicting
programs, removing libraries it depends on, etc.

2. You won't get any tweaks and enhancements that may be normal (or
necessary!) for applications on your Linux distribution =E2=80=94 unless =
you
yourself implement them. You won't get security patches, either, except
those written by the upstream author.

3. Along those same lines, the desirable version to compile and run may
well not be the author's latest release: Sometimes, authors are trying
out new concepts, and improvements & old bugs fixed are outweighed by
misfeatures & new bugs introduced.

4. As a person downloading the upstream author's source code directly,
you have to personally assume the burden of verifying that the tarball
really is the author's work, and not that of (e.g.) a network intruder
who cracked the download ftp site substituted a trojaned version.
Although this concern applies mostly to software designed to run with
elevated privilege, it's not a strictly academic risk: Linux-relevant
codebases that have been (briefly) trojaned in this fashion, in recent
years, on the upstream author's download sites, include Wietse Venema's
TCP Wrappers (tcpd/libwrap), the util-linux package, sendmail, OpenSSH,
and the Linux kernel (CVS gateway's archive, only). Unless you are
prepared to meaningfully verify the author's cryptographic signature =E2=
=80=94
if any =E2=80=94 on that tarball, you risk sabotaging your system's secur=
ity.
(None of those upstream trojanings escaped into Linux distributions
because of distribution packager vigilance. Make sure you can be as good
a gatekeeper, or rely on those who already do the job well.)

All of the above are problems normally addressed (and the burden of
solving them, shouldered) by Linux distributions' package maintainers,
so that you won't have to. It's to your advantage to take advantage of
that effort, if feasible. The memory of when a thousand Linux sysadmins,
circa 1993, would need to do all of that work 999-times redundantly, is
still fresh to us old-timers: We call those the Bad Old Days, given that
today one expert package maintainer can instead do that task for a
thousand sysadmins. And yes, sometimes there's nothing like such a
package available, and you have no reasonable alternative but to grab
upstream source tarballs =E2=80=94 but the disadvantages justify some pai=
ns to
search for suitable packages, instead.

Depending on your distribution, you may find that there are update
packages available directly from the distribution's package updating
utilities, or from ancillary, semi-official package archives (e.g., the
Fedora Extras and "dag" repositories for Fedora/RH and similar
distributions), or, failing that, third-party packages maintained by
reputable outside parties, e.g., some of the Debian-and-compatible
repositories registered at the apt-get.org and backports.org sites.
Although those are certainly not unfailingly better than tarballs, I
would say they're generally so.

The smaller, less popular, and less dependency-ridden a package is, the
more you might be tempted to use an upstream source tarball. For
example, I use locally compiled versions of the Leafnode pre-2.0 betas
to run my server's local NNTP newsgroups, because release-version
packages simply lack that functionality altogether. On the other hand,
that package's one dependency, the Perl PCRE library, I satisfy from my
distribution's official packages, for all the reasons stated above.

Among the new Linux user's first and most-important jobs is to learn
the chosen Linux distribution's design, toolset, and maintenance regimen.
Is it a release-oriented distribution, or a rolling distribution? How
are official packages added and removed? In so doing, how is security
maintained and software integrity vetted? What if any are the major
outside repositories of distro-unofficial software for this
distribution (e.g., for A/V, crypto, etc.), how are they best used, what
are the cautions and gotchas, and how is code-signing handled? How do
you make sure that outside packaged software is compatible with the
development branch or release of the Linux distribution you're running,
so that you don't break things?

Where are the online communities of clueful users from whom you can
learn the distro's methods and ways of coping / philosophical approach?
Web search done well and _skeptically_ is good; Web-search done naively =

leads instantly to confirmation bias. See Danah Boyd's perceptive essay
on the main learning malady of our times:
http://www.zephoria.org/thoughts/archives/2017/01/09/did-media-literacy-bac=
kfire.html

As I detailed in my book It=E2=80=99s Complicated: The Social Lives of
Networked Teens, too many students I met were being told that =

Wikipedia was untrustworthy and were, instead, being encouraged =

to do research. As a result, the message that many had taken =

home was to turn to Google and use whatever came up first. They =

heard that Google was trustworthy and Wikipedia was not.

Understanding what sources to trust is a basic tenet of media =

literacy education. [...]

Our society is plagued with this problem, a generation of people having
been taught to 'research' every knowledge issue (in every area of life),
without being _taught how_, with the result of them blithely disregarding
expert resources, because they've found some blog or Web-forum post and
credulously believed it. I find Ubuntu kiddies all the time who've gone
through gyrations to install proprietary hardware drivers rather than
using better open source drivers, resulting in their systems becoming
brittle and difficult to maintain over the long term. Why? Because
they Google-searched on their hardware items + 'Ubuntu', found some
really bad advice on ubuntuforums.org, and followed it.

So, it's really important for new Linux users to, first, understand how
their distributions' package-maintenance systems work, including how to
understand what's available for official sources. They should make sure
they know what the _focus_ of their distro is, e.g., not install
Debian-stable and then be all surprised about it lacking bleeding edge
software versions. They need to know what a package repo is,
more-or-less how it works, and what third-party ones exist and what
they're good for. Last, they should get around to understanding how to
build (or tweak and rebuild) a local package -- as an almost-always
superior alternative to just compiling upstream tarballs in /usr/local .[1]

It pains me when I see twenty-year Linux veterans resorting immediately
to the latter when they're running a Linux distribution with good
alternatives, because it suggests to me they've never really bothered to
learn the fundamentals and are still acting like it's 1993.

[1] I also sometimes hear people say 'I don't need to make local distro
packages because I manage everything using Chef (or Puppet).'
Configuration management is highly recommended, but IMO complements
rather than replaces software packaging.

-- =

Cheers, Homo in Domu Alba, qui est iratus et habet=
in =

Rick Moen artificialibus capillum: Quod homo non sit
rick-at-linuxmafia.com honesta, et est perniciosa in rei publicae.
McQ! (4x80) =

_______________________________________________
hangout mailing list
hangout-at-nylxs.com
http://www.nylxs.com/

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  69. 2017-02-09 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [Hangout-NYLXS] anyone know what is this
  70. 2017-02-09 Rick Moen <rick-at-linuxmafia.com> Re: [Hangout-NYLXS] anyone know what is this
  71. 2017-02-09 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] Fwd: Innovation, opportunities & Israel's future
  72. 2017-02-10 ruben <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [Hangout-NYLXS] anyone know what is this
  73. 2017-02-10 ruben <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [Hangout-NYLXS] anyone know what is this
  74. 2017-02-10 Rick Moen <rick-at-linuxmafia.com> Re: [Hangout-NYLXS] anyone know what is this
  75. 2017-02-09 Paul Robert Marino <prmarino1-at-gmail.com> Re: [Hangout-NYLXS] Microsofts new stratergy to beat linux | | I
  76. 2017-02-10 From: "Mancini, Sabin (DFS)" <Sabin.Mancini-at-dfs.ny.gov> Re: [Hangout-NYLXS] Microsofts new stratergy to beat linux | | ...
  77. 2017-02-10 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] Fwd: [Accu-contacts] Software engineer position
  78. 2017-02-10 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] Compiler Papers
  79. 2017-02-10 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] Guess this painting!!
  80. 2017-02-10 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] Shabbat Shalom!
  81. 2017-02-10 Rick Moen <rick-at-linuxmafia.com> Re: [Hangout-NYLXS] Guess this painting!!
  82. 2017-02-10 Rick Moen <rick-at-linuxmafia.com> Re: [Hangout-NYLXS] Microsofts new stratergy to beat linux | | ...
  83. 2017-02-10 Paul Robert Marino <prmarino1-at-gmail.com> Re: [Hangout-NYLXS] Microsofts new stratergy to beat linux | | ...
  84. 2017-02-10 Ruben Safir <ruben.safir-at-my.liu.edu> Re: [Hangout-NYLXS] Microsofts new stratergy to beat linux | | I
  85. 2017-02-11 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] Tech News - Honeypots
  86. 2017-02-11 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] more on honeypots
  87. 2017-02-11 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] Internet of things DDOS threat
  88. 2017-02-11 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] Hackers and Honepots
  89. 2017-02-11 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] Mozilla and DRM
  90. 2017-02-11 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] WebRTC coding in html5
  91. 2017-02-11 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [Hangout-NYLXS] WebRTC coding in html5
  92. 2017-02-11 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] vim and the free software world
  93. 2017-02-11 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] Robotics
  94. 2017-02-11 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] Researchers use artificial neural network to
  95. 2017-02-11 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] power grids in peril
  96. 2017-02-11 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] New Neuronet theory
  97. 2017-02-11 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] Linguistics
  98. 2017-02-11 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [Hangout-NYLXS] Guess this painting!!
  99. 2017-02-11 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] lions and tigers and snow leopards
  100. 2017-02-11 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] Movie of the Week
  101. 2017-02-10 Paul Robert Marino <prmarino1-at-gmail.com> Re: [Hangout-NYLXS] Microsofts new stratergy to beat linux | | I
  102. 2017-02-12 ruben <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [Hangout-NYLXS] anyone know what is this
  103. 2017-02-12 Rick Moen <rick-at-linuxmafia.com> Re: [Hangout-NYLXS] anyone know what is this
  104. 2017-02-12 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] fellowship positition
  105. 2017-02-12 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] aptget
  106. 2017-02-12 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] Trump Economics and Lou Costello teaches about a
  107. 2017-02-12 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [Hangout-NYLXS] Guess this painting!!
  108. 2017-02-12 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] Name the artist and the work..
  109. 2017-02-13 Gabor Szabo <gabor-at-szabgab.com> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] [Perlweekly] #290 - Interview at FOSDEM
  110. 2017-02-01 Dirk Jagdmann <doj-at-cubic.org> Re: [Hangout-NYLXS] Passing encrypted base64 encoded value via href
  111. 2017-02-13 Rick Moen <rick-at-linuxmafia.com> Re: [Hangout-NYLXS] Guess this painting!!
  112. 2017-02-13 ruben <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [Hangout-NYLXS] Guess this painting!!
  113. 2017-02-13 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Re: [Hangout-NYLXS] Guess this painting!!
  114. 2017-02-13 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Re: [Hangout-NYLXS] Guess this painting!!
  115. 2017-02-13 ISOC-NY announcements <announce-at-lists.isoc-ny.org> Re: [Hangout-NYLXS]
  116. 2017-02-13 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] Patent Trolls Delux
  117. 2017-02-13 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [Hangout-NYLXS] Microsofts new stratergy to beat linux | | I
  118. 2017-02-13 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] Fwd: [isoc-ny] Fwd: EVENT TONIGHT: The Internet of
  119. 2017-02-13 From: "Mancini, Sabin (DFS)" <Sabin.Mancini-at-dfs.ny.gov> Re: [Hangout-NYLXS] Fwd: [isoc-ny] Fwd: EVENT TONIGHT: The Internet
  120. 2017-02-13 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Re: [Hangout-NYLXS] Fwd: [isoc-ny] Fwd: EVENT TONIGHT: The Internet
  121. 2017-02-13 Rick Moen <rick-at-linuxmafia.com> Re: [Hangout-NYLXS] Guess this painting!!
  122. 2017-02-13 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] Geological floods
  123. 2017-02-13 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] Amature Radio
  124. 2017-02-13 Rick Moen <rick-at-linuxmafia.com> Re: [Hangout-NYLXS] Amature Radio
  125. 2017-02-13 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] Artificial Intelligence Gets Aggressive Without
  126. 2017-02-14 Rick Moen <rick-at-linuxmafia.com> Re: [Hangout-NYLXS] Geological floods
  127. 2017-02-14 From: "American Museum of Natural History" <mat-at-amnh.org> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] Tomorrow Is The Last Day for MAT Applications
  128. 2017-02-14 From: "IEEE The Institute"<tialert-at-ieee.org> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] The Institute Online: Can Amazon's Echo Device Help
  129. 2017-02-14 Charlotte Danes <charlotted-at-schoolingadvisor.com> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] NYLXS - The Free Software Institute
  130. 2017-02-15 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] Just a reminder
  131. 2017-02-15 IEEE Engineering in Medicine and Biology Society <noreply-at-embs.org> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] EMBC Paper Submission DEADLINE is
  132. 2017-02-15 Rick Moen <rick-at-linuxmafia.com> Re: [Hangout-NYLXS] aptget
  133. 2017-02-15 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [Hangout-NYLXS] aptget
  134. 2017-02-16 Rick Moen <rick-at-linuxmafia.com> Re: [Hangout-NYLXS] aptget
  135. 2017-02-16 ruben <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] chew on this
  136. 2017-02-16 ruben <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] Next Picute
  137. 2017-02-16 Rick Moen <rick-at-linuxmafia.com> Re: [Hangout-NYLXS] Next Picture
  138. 2017-02-16 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [Hangout-NYLXS] aptget
  139. 2017-02-16 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [Hangout-NYLXS] aptget
  140. 2017-02-16 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [Hangout-NYLXS] Next Picture
  141. 2017-02-16 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] Fwd: Sherry
  142. 2017-02-16 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] Name the Artist and the Work
  143. 2017-02-16 From: "Mancini, Sabin (DFS)" <Sabin.Mancini-at-dfs.ny.gov> Re: [Hangout-NYLXS] aptget: | | it was not wasted !
  144. 2017-02-16 From: "Mancini, Sabin (DFS)" <Sabin.Mancini-at-dfs.ny.gov> Re: [Hangout-NYLXS] aptget: | | RS: I thought you were an OpenSuse
  145. 2017-02-16 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [Hangout-NYLXS] aptget: | | RS: I thought you were an OpenSuse
  146. 2017-02-16 From: "Mancini, Sabin (DFS)" <Sabin.Mancini-at-dfs.ny.gov> Re: [Hangout-NYLXS] aptget: | | RS: . Audience was about 70% male (
  147. 2017-02-16 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Re: [Hangout-NYLXS] Next Picture
  148. 2017-02-16 Rick Moen <rick-at-linuxmafia.com> Re: [Hangout-NYLXS] Next Picture
  149. 2017-02-16 Rick Moen <rick-at-linuxmafia.com> Re: [Hangout-NYLXS] Next Picture
  150. 2017-02-16 ISOC-NY announcements <announce-at-lists.isoc-ny.org> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] [isoc-ny] WEBCAST TONIGHT: The Future of Digital
  151. 2017-02-17 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] Living with NASA
  152. 2017-02-17 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] The MTA is so fucked up
  153. 2017-02-17 From: "Mancini, Sabin (DFS)" <Sabin.Mancini-at-dfs.ny.gov> Re: [Hangout-NYLXS] The MTA is so f****d up | | Join the MTA and
  154. 2017-02-17 ruben <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] Fwd: [isoc-ny] WEBCAST TONIGHT: The Future of
  155. 2017-02-17 Rick Moen <rick-at-linuxmafia.com> Re: [Hangout-NYLXS] aptget: | | it was not wasted !
  156. 2017-02-19 Rick Moen <rick-at-linuxmafia.com> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] (forw) QA & Tech Support Engineer (NYC)
  157. 2017-02-20 Rick Moen <rick-at-linuxmafia.com> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] Duplicity (2009 film)
  158. 2017-02-20 Gabor Szabo <gabor-at-szabgab.com> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] [Perlweekly] #291 - FOSDEM videos
  159. 2017-02-20 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] movie of the week
  160. 2017-02-21 ruben <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] technologywith fossils
  161. 2017-02-22 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] exo-planets
  162. 2017-02-22 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] in other news
  163. 2017-02-22 Nicholas Rodin <nikbbwil-at-icloud.com> Re: [Hangout-NYLXS] in other news
  164. 2017-02-22 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Re: [Hangout-NYLXS] in other news
  165. 2017-02-22 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Re: [Hangout-NYLXS] in other news
  166. 2017-02-22 James E Keenan <jkeen-at-verizon.net> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] February social meeting
  167. 2017-02-23 From: "Mancini, Sabin (DFS)" <Sabin.Mancini-at-dfs.ny.gov> Re: [Hangout-NYLXS] | | | Nick: You cannot be removed without
  168. 2017-02-23 Nicholas Rodin <nikbbwil-at-icloud.com> Re: [Hangout-NYLXS] | | | Nick: You cannot be removed without
  169. 2017-02-23 From: "Mancini, Sabin (DFS)" <Sabin.Mancini-at-dfs.ny.gov> Re: [Hangout-NYLXS] | | | Nick: I get way TOO many emails TO both
  170. 2017-02-23 Nicholas Rodin <nikbbwil-at-icloud.com> Re: [Hangout-NYLXS] | | | Nick: I get way TOO many emails TO both
  171. 2017-02-23 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Re: [Hangout-NYLXS] | | | Nick: I get way TOO many emails TO both
  172. 2017-02-23 Rick Moen <rick-at-linuxmafia.com> Re: [Hangout-NYLXS] | | | Nick: I get way TOO many emails TO both
  173. 2017-02-24 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] decision making tree for a euler walk
  174. 2017-02-24 IEEE Engineering in Medicine and Biology Society <noreply-at-embs.org> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] Your EMB Weekly Newsletter is HERE!!!!
  175. 2017-02-28 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] Peer Review
  176. 2017-02-27 James E Keenan <jkeen-at-verizon.net> Re: [Hangout-NYLXS] February social meeting + upcoming
  177. 2017-02-28 From: "IEEE The Institute"<tialert-at-ieee.org> Subject: [Hangout-NYLXS] The Institute Online: Straight Out of Sci-Fi,
  178. 2017-02-28 Don Brinkman <Don.Brinkman-at-gov.ab.ca> Re: [Hangout-NYLXS] visit

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