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DATE 2008-01-01

HANGOUT

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Key: Value:

Key: Value:

MESSAGE
DATE 2008-01-28
FROM From: "Michael L. Richardson"
SUBJECT Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Republican Endorsements and the facts
My apologies, I thought you were Ruben. Most of what you say is
real. I am not talking about policing the police. It is the culture
that needs to change. Real ongoing dialog needs to be opened. Your
a,b,c points while a good start do not take into account peer pressure.
I am aware that there are other classification's of people who are
mistreated by the police . I can not speak for them I can only speak
for myself and how I see things. I know I have been wrong and made
misjudgments in the past and most likely will do so in the future
(especially since I gave up being perfect).

Ronny Abraham wrote:
> Firstly, I'm not Ruben, I'm Ron. :)
>
> Secondly, "access" to psychological counseling is not remotely the
> same thing as being given complete and total support with regard to
> counseling. Which the police do not get. This isn't about giving
> the police a perk, this is about making sure that a man whose job is
> to carry around a firearm in unstable situations doesn't murder an
> innocent human being because he makes a bad judgment call due to
> emotional problems. I would think that someone who openly expresses
> his fear of the police would agree with me on this.
>
> Third, I am not talking about a citizen review board. You are talking
> about how we must "police" the police. This is the same tired
> argument regarding crime in general; punish the criminals, or deal
> with the causes of crime. Both are important. Community support of
> the police as well as involvement in making their work and lives
> easier does not take the place of a civilian oversight board. By the
> same token, a civilian oversight board does not take the place of
> community support. Both are essential.
>
> Fourth, If, heaven forbid, you ever get in trouble with the law, I
> would be very happy to know that the officers involved with your case
> were
>
> a) intelligent
> b) emotionally stable
> c) professional with regards to their duties.
>
> Currently, you will be unable, with certainty, to count on any of the
> above three things I mentioned. African Americans are not the only
> ones who get treated like utter crap by unprofessional officers. My
> experiences with the police have fortunately been all positive and
> professional. But I know enough people (yes, white), who were
> ex-Giuliani supporters thanks to their experiences. My post was
> dedicated to addressing precisely those issues. It is very important
> to be aware of problems. But griping about problems without an honest
> assessment of what needs to correct the situation is simply
> ridiculous. There is no vaccine which will magically solve these
> issues. There are a number of factors that need to be addressed and
> some of those factors require effort on behalf of the community as
> well. I'm sorry to tell you this, but that happens to be true of most
> of the problems in the public sphere.
>
> Finally, as far as newspapers go, I was addressing Ruben on that one,
> not yourself. I appreciate his being upset with the Times, but I
> think it's important to stress that all newspapers have traditionally
> had a dedicated segment of professional fantasists (read "Roughing It"
> by Mark Twain where he describes how his first newspaper assignment
> was to make up a story of an Indian massacre that never happened).
>
> But I still read the papers for
>
> a) entertainment
> b) when it comes to a general overview of a situation. Even they
> cannot screw up everything.
>
> -ron
>
> On Jan 28, 2008 1:59 PM, Michael L. Richardson.com
> wrote:
>
>> Ruben the police do have access to psychological counseling.
>> people did complain and they gave us the citizen review board. (whose
>> unstated mission to dissmiss compaints).
>> If I ever get into trouble with the law I want the same consideration the
>> police get (not equal justice).
>> as for greater cooperation with the police I find that one to one they are
>> normal peploe but put two or more together and you are asking for trouble
>> from them.
>> The police are a necessary evil.
>> I stopped reading newspapers years ago.
>>
>>
>> ___
>> Sent with SnapperMail
>> www.snappermail.com
>>
>> ...... Original Message .......
>> On Mon, 28 Jan 2008 11:25:56 -0500 "Ronny Abraham"
>>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> One more thing. Ruben, it wasn't 2000 murders a month. It was
>>> (about) 2000 a year. Furthermore the rates were going up long before
>>> Dinkins got into office, and started going down three years before he
>>> left it.
>>>
>>> Not that I liked the man, thought he was a horrible mayor. Although
>>> to be fair, he wasn't the worst. Jimmy Walker easily takes that
>>> prize. There are also quite a number of other rejects ahead of him in
>>> that regard too.
>>>
>>> As for the Times, anyone who believes everything a newspaper (ANY
>>> newspaper) says, is kidding themselves.
>>> Newspapers don't exist to tell the truth, they exist to sell papers.
>>> Period. That's the way it is now, and that's the way it's been,
>>> literally, since the beginning of the country.
>>>
>>> I can introduce you to a fellow who worked in the Koch administration
>>> who told me how they were constantly incredulous at the way the
>>> newspapers would print "facts" that had absolutely nothing to do with
>>> reality. I myself saw how an article in the Jerusalem post regarding
>>> a local incident (it was a heroic fairy tale) was at complete odds
>>> with the utter cowardice that the "hero" admitted (in my presence) to
>>> having shown.
>>>
>>> -ron
>>>
>>> On Jan 28, 2008 10:38 AM, Ronny Abraham wrote:
>>>
>>>> What you fear or do not fear is of course your own business. But here
>>>> are the facts.
>>>>
>>>> http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/nycrime.htm
>>>>
>>>> If you really have problems with the police, than I suggest you get
>>>> involved in police advocacy organizations to change the system from
>>>> the inside as opposed to simply complaining about it.
>>>>
>>>> Here are some suggestions:
>>>>
>>>> 1. Demand that psychological counseling be made available to all
>>>> officers to whatever degree required. This is common sense. If I
>>>> have an armed man walking around and enforcing the law, I obviously
>>>> want him to be sane.
>>>>
>>>> 2. Demand greater involvement on the part of the community with the
>>>> police. The classic example is Kitty Genovese,
>>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kitty_Genovese The community has this
>>>> childlike mentality that the police is either a "good daddy" or a "bad
>>>> daddy". They are not "daddy". They are simply armed men who enforce
>>>> the law. If people don't work with them, then their job is
>>>> impossible, frustrating, and they will consequently view everyone in
>>>> the community as at best, an obstacle. Which will lead to corruption
>>>> as well as a willingness to work with the criminal element$$ of the
>>>> community to simply get through the day. Why should they care if we
>>>> don't? Again, common sense tells us that a police officer is a great
>>>> deal more likely to treat members of a community with respect if those
>>>> community members treat his work with respect. Note, I refer to his
>>>> work, not to him in particular.
>>>>
>>>> 3. Demand that they get better pay. You get what you pay for. Think
>>>>
>> about it.
>>
>>>> 4. Demand that the entry requirements are a lot tougher. Do I want a
>>>> moron or an intelligent person walking around with a gun, making
>>>> decisions that could either keep me alive or G-d forbid, land me in
>>>> jail? See #3 and #1
>>>>
>>>> 5. Demand that the city take a realistic view with regards to gangs as
>>>> well as schooling. Since both feed a great deal off the other. I
>>>> won't bother getting into it, just suffice to say that our treatment
>>>> of both is a pathetic joke.
>>>>
>>>> 6. The one intelligent thing Dinkins did was to start a program
>>>> calling for more police to walk the beat. Same thing is working now
>>>> in Iraq. Visibility makes a difference. Hiding in the
>>>> Precinct/barracks and only coming out to arrest "bad guys" is an
>>>> exercise in futility.
>>>>
>>>> Think about it, if a community (any community) would regularly stage
>>>> demonstrations in front of city hall arguing that their police
>>>> officers should have tougher entrance exams, better pay, more
>>>> community involvement (including watchdog groups), and free
>>>> psychological counseling for however much they felt they needed it;
>>>> do you honestly think they wouldn't treat that community with respect
>>>> and consideration?
>>>>
>>>> As for Giuliani, well, most of the bitching and complaints about him
>>>> I've found were either fairly accurate or had basis. I call it
>>>> "bitching" because usually these complaints lack the perspective that
>>>> he had real accomplishments and helped out the city tremendously. The
>>>> man was far from a saint, but it takes a real genius to argue that
>>>> we're not better off because of him.
>>>>
>>>> As for your assertion that the best thing he did was to leave office,
>>>> I agree with you, believe it or not. I feel he was the right man at
>>>> the right time for the job, but he did what was needed and the
>>>> situation called for someone else.
>>>>
>>>> -ron
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Jan 27, 2008 6:07 PM, Michael L. Richardson
>>>>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Not to make light of or minimize what happened, and what your and yours
>>>>> experienced. The first two still happen they only moved to new
>>>>> locations. The third one wait for summer. I still fear the police.
>>>>>
>>>>> (snip)
>>>>>
>>>>>> I remember my wife being dragged into the Flatbush Avenue train
>>>>>>
>> station
>>
>>>>>> by a band of HS kids and the owners of the comicbook store running
>>>>>>
>> down the
>>
>>>>>> stairs to resue them to result in a bloody standoff in which Ellen
>>>>>>
>> finaly
>>
>>>>>> escaped..
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I remember Howard Avenue and Vanderbilt Avenue patrolled up and down
>>>>>> by drug dealer and 3 infants in a week being shot down in their rooms
>>>>>> by random gun fire.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I remember a lot of things. I also remember standing on Troy Avenue
>>>>>> and Eastern Parkway running into a crowd of rioters on the day of the
>>>>>> riots trying to prevent them from torching a mini-van.
>>>>>> yeah - I do remmeber.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Ruben
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> (snip)
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>
>
>

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  40. 2008-01-27 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Republican Endorsements and the facts
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  45. 2008-01-28 From: "Ronny Abraham" <ronny.coder-at-gmail.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Republican Endorsements and the facts
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