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DATE 2008-01-01

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Key: Value:

Key: Value:

MESSAGE
DATE 2008-01-29
FROM From: "Ronny Abraham"
SUBJECT Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Republican Endorsements and the facts
"especially since I gave up being perfect"

HAH! I wish I would grow up and take that attitude!

-ron

On Jan 28, 2008 11:32 PM, Michael L. Richardson
wrote:
> My apologies, I thought you were Ruben. Most of what you say is
> real. I am not talking about policing the police. It is the culture
> that needs to change. Real ongoing dialog needs to be opened. Your
> a,b,c points while a good start do not take into account peer pressure.
> I am aware that there are other classification's of people who are
> mistreated by the police . I can not speak for them I can only speak
> for myself and how I see things. I know I have been wrong and made
> misjudgments in the past and most likely will do so in the future
> (especially since I gave up being perfect).
>
>
> Ronny Abraham wrote:
> > Firstly, I'm not Ruben, I'm Ron. :)
> >
> > Secondly, "access" to psychological counseling is not remotely the
> > same thing as being given complete and total support with regard to
> > counseling. Which the police do not get. This isn't about giving
> > the police a perk, this is about making sure that a man whose job is
> > to carry around a firearm in unstable situations doesn't murder an
> > innocent human being because he makes a bad judgment call due to
> > emotional problems. I would think that someone who openly expresses
> > his fear of the police would agree with me on this.
> >
> > Third, I am not talking about a citizen review board. You are talking
> > about how we must "police" the police. This is the same tired
> > argument regarding crime in general; punish the criminals, or deal
> > with the causes of crime. Both are important. Community support of
> > the police as well as involvement in making their work and lives
> > easier does not take the place of a civilian oversight board. By the
> > same token, a civilian oversight board does not take the place of
> > community support. Both are essential.
> >
> > Fourth, If, heaven forbid, you ever get in trouble with the law, I
> > would be very happy to know that the officers involved with your case
> > were
> >
> > a) intelligent
> > b) emotionally stable
> > c) professional with regards to their duties.
> >
> > Currently, you will be unable, with certainty, to count on any of the
> > above three things I mentioned. African Americans are not the only
> > ones who get treated like utter crap by unprofessional officers. My
> > experiences with the police have fortunately been all positive and
> > professional. But I know enough people (yes, white), who were
> > ex-Giuliani supporters thanks to their experiences. My post was
> > dedicated to addressing precisely those issues. It is very important
> > to be aware of problems. But griping about problems without an honest
> > assessment of what needs to correct the situation is simply
> > ridiculous. There is no vaccine which will magically solve these
> > issues. There are a number of factors that need to be addressed and
> > some of those factors require effort on behalf of the community as
> > well. I'm sorry to tell you this, but that happens to be true of most
> > of the problems in the public sphere.
> >
> > Finally, as far as newspapers go, I was addressing Ruben on that one,
> > not yourself. I appreciate his being upset with the Times, but I
> > think it's important to stress that all newspapers have traditionally
> > had a dedicated segment of professional fantasists (read "Roughing It"
> > by Mark Twain where he describes how his first newspaper assignment
> > was to make up a story of an Indian massacre that never happened).
> >
> > But I still read the papers for
> >
> > a) entertainment
> > b) when it comes to a general overview of a situation. Even they
> > cannot screw up everything.
> >
> > -ron
> >
> > On Jan 28, 2008 1:59 PM, Michael L. Richardson.com
> > wrote:
> >
> >> Ruben the police do have access to psychological counseling.
> >> people did complain and they gave us the citizen review board. (whose
> >> unstated mission to dissmiss compaints).
> >> If I ever get into trouble with the law I want the same consideration the
> >> police get (not equal justice).
> >> as for greater cooperation with the police I find that one to one they are
> >> normal peploe but put two or more together and you are asking for trouble
> >> from them.
> >> The police are a necessary evil.
> >> I stopped reading newspapers years ago.
> >>
> >>
> >> ___
> >> Sent with SnapperMail
> >> www.snappermail.com
> >>
> >> ...... Original Message .......
> >> On Mon, 28 Jan 2008 11:25:56 -0500 "Ronny Abraham"
> >>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >>> One more thing. Ruben, it wasn't 2000 murders a month. It was
> >>> (about) 2000 a year. Furthermore the rates were going up long before
> >>> Dinkins got into office, and started going down three years before he
> >>> left it.
> >>>
> >>> Not that I liked the man, thought he was a horrible mayor. Although
> >>> to be fair, he wasn't the worst. Jimmy Walker easily takes that
> >>> prize. There are also quite a number of other rejects ahead of him in
> >>> that regard too.
> >>>
> >>> As for the Times, anyone who believes everything a newspaper (ANY
> >>> newspaper) says, is kidding themselves.
> >>> Newspapers don't exist to tell the truth, they exist to sell papers.
> >>> Period. That's the way it is now, and that's the way it's been,
> >>> literally, since the beginning of the country.
> >>>
> >>> I can introduce you to a fellow who worked in the Koch administration
> >>> who told me how they were constantly incredulous at the way the
> >>> newspapers would print "facts" that had absolutely nothing to do with
> >>> reality. I myself saw how an article in the Jerusalem post regarding
> >>> a local incident (it was a heroic fairy tale) was at complete odds
> >>> with the utter cowardice that the "hero" admitted (in my presence) to
> >>> having shown.
> >>>
> >>> -ron
> >>>
> >>> On Jan 28, 2008 10:38 AM, Ronny Abraham wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> What you fear or do not fear is of course your own business. But here
> >>>> are the facts.
> >>>>
> >>>> http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/nycrime.htm
> >>>>
> >>>> If you really have problems with the police, than I suggest you get
> >>>> involved in police advocacy organizations to change the system from
> >>>> the inside as opposed to simply complaining about it.
> >>>>
> >>>> Here are some suggestions:
> >>>>
> >>>> 1. Demand that psychological counseling be made available to all
> >>>> officers to whatever degree required. This is common sense. If I
> >>>> have an armed man walking around and enforcing the law, I obviously
> >>>> want him to be sane.
> >>>>
> >>>> 2. Demand greater involvement on the part of the community with the
> >>>> police. The classic example is Kitty Genovese,
> >>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kitty_Genovese The community has this
> >>>> childlike mentality that the police is either a "good daddy" or a "bad
> >>>> daddy". They are not "daddy". They are simply armed men who enforce
> >>>> the law. If people don't work with them, then their job is
> >>>> impossible, frustrating, and they will consequently view everyone in
> >>>> the community as at best, an obstacle. Which will lead to corruption
> >>>> as well as a willingness to work with the criminal element$$ of the
> >>>> community to simply get through the day. Why should they care if we
> >>>> don't? Again, common sense tells us that a police officer is a great
> >>>> deal more likely to treat members of a community with respect if those
> >>>> community members treat his work with respect. Note, I refer to his
> >>>> work, not to him in particular.
> >>>>
> >>>> 3. Demand that they get better pay. You get what you pay for. Think
> >>>>
> >> about it.
> >>
> >>>> 4. Demand that the entry requirements are a lot tougher. Do I want a
> >>>> moron or an intelligent person walking around with a gun, making
> >>>> decisions that could either keep me alive or G-d forbid, land me in
> >>>> jail? See #3 and #1
> >>>>
> >>>> 5. Demand that the city take a realistic view with regards to gangs as
> >>>> well as schooling. Since both feed a great deal off the other. I
> >>>> won't bother getting into it, just suffice to say that our treatment
> >>>> of both is a pathetic joke.
> >>>>
> >>>> 6. The one intelligent thing Dinkins did was to start a program
> >>>> calling for more police to walk the beat. Same thing is working now
> >>>> in Iraq. Visibility makes a difference. Hiding in the
> >>>> Precinct/barracks and only coming out to arrest "bad guys" is an
> >>>> exercise in futility.
> >>>>
> >>>> Think about it, if a community (any community) would regularly stage
> >>>> demonstrations in front of city hall arguing that their police
> >>>> officers should have tougher entrance exams, better pay, more
> >>>> community involvement (including watchdog groups), and free
> >>>> psychological counseling for however much they felt they needed it;
> >>>> do you honestly think they wouldn't treat that community with respect
> >>>> and consideration?
> >>>>
> >>>> As for Giuliani, well, most of the bitching and complaints about him
> >>>> I've found were either fairly accurate or had basis. I call it
> >>>> "bitching" because usually these complaints lack the perspective that
> >>>> he had real accomplishments and helped out the city tremendously. The
> >>>> man was far from a saint, but it takes a real genius to argue that
> >>>> we're not better off because of him.
> >>>>
> >>>> As for your assertion that the best thing he did was to leave office,
> >>>> I agree with you, believe it or not. I feel he was the right man at
> >>>> the right time for the job, but he did what was needed and the
> >>>> situation called for someone else.
> >>>>
> >>>> -ron
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> On Jan 27, 2008 6:07 PM, Michael L. Richardson
> >>>>
> >>>> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> Not to make light of or minimize what happened, and what your and yours
> >>>>> experienced. The first two still happen they only moved to new
> >>>>> locations. The third one wait for summer. I still fear the police.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> (snip)
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> I remember my wife being dragged into the Flatbush Avenue train
> >>>>>>
> >> station
> >>
> >>>>>> by a band of HS kids and the owners of the comicbook store running
> >>>>>>
> >> down the
> >>
> >>>>>> stairs to resue them to result in a bloody standoff in which Ellen
> >>>>>>
> >> finaly
> >>
> >>>>>> escaped..
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> I remember Howard Avenue and Vanderbilt Avenue patrolled up and down
> >>>>>> by drug dealer and 3 infants in a week being shot down in their rooms
> >>>>>> by random gun fire.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> I remember a lot of things. I also remember standing on Troy Avenue
> >>>>>> and Eastern Parkway running into a crowd of rioters on the day of the
> >>>>>> riots trying to prevent them from torching a mini-van.
> >>>>>> yeah - I do remmeber.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Ruben
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>> (snip)
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>
> >
> >
>
>

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