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DATE 2008-07-01

HANGOUT

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MESSAGE
DATE 2008-07-08
FROM Ruben Safir
SUBJECT Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] While we're on this topic
From lest-hangout-at-mrbrklyn.com Tue Jul 8 22:38:24 2008
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Don't compare GNU/Linux with Windows or MacOS - they are not in the same
game FSM Columnist: Trusted

* Ryan Cartwright * 2008-07-07 *
2 Up Down
* Tags: comparison, gnu/linux, windows

Write a full post in response to this! Listen to this article. Powered
by Odiogo.com

Recently a blog post entitled “Why Desktop Linux is its own worst enemy
has come across my feed-radar a few times. It’s yet another in the long
line of “Linux ain’t ready yet” jeremiads and it doesn’t really
say anything new yet it got on my nerves. Why? Unsupported statements

Like many such pieces, this one starts by making a statement as if it
were fact while presenting no actual evidence. The “fact” used here
goes along the lines of “Microsoft has shot itself in the foot with
Vista and the only ones benefiting are Apple”. Even if there were
statistical evidence, the premise is mistaken. As I have said before
the “success” of GNU/Linux cannot be measured in the same way as
a proprietary OS. Apples and air people, you’re comparing apples and
air. I mean how can you tell how many Ubuntu installs came of a single CD?

The “success” of GNU/Linux cannot be measured in the same way as a
proprietary OS

Speaking about unsupported, the post then reels out that hardy perennial
“not working out of the box”. Apparently “even getting MP3s to
play can be while using Linux can be problematic”. Which distribution
was that then? If playing MP3s out of the box is your thing try one of
the distros that comes with that feature out of the box: Linux Mint,
PCLinuxOS etc. Okay perhaps I’ve made that too difficult for people
there, I mean perhaps they want “Linux” to be just “Linux”: all
distros being the same. You know like Windows with its seven different
versions of Vista (with their range of hardware requirements) from a
single supplier. To be fair the author does try to sound like she’s
not blaming GNU/Linux:

“Perhaps it’s not the fault of Linux as much as it is
the pervasiveness of Windows. Microsoft, after all, works with
various hardware manufacturers to ensure their hardware works with
Windows. And you still have driver problems crop up on occasion so
what else can you expect with Linux.”

Hmm, Microsoft works with hardware manufacturers? These would be the
same manufacturers who said they weren’t ready and yet Vista was still
released. The Vista release was such a sore-point for Microsoft that a
month ago another blog on the same site claimed that Microsoft is asking
manufacturers to start testing the next Windows release now. But what
follows that bit had me in absolute fits of laughter:

The average consumer just wants to be able to pop a CD into his
optical drive, wait 10-15mins and have a working operating system.

Most of the average users I know would rather buy a new PC than upgrade
Windows

The average consumer wants what? And in how many minutes? Has this
blogger ever tried to install Windows? Sorry but this is just a ridiculous
claim. Show me this average consumer who wants to install their OS? Show
me any modern OS that installs in 15 minutes (best I’ve achieved is 18
and I’ll assume live CDs are not allowed here). Most of the average
users I know would rather buy a new PC than upgrade Windows. No, users
wanting to install an OS in 15 minutes is a pure straw-man argument.
Another old chestnut

So what’s next? Ah the old “why there are so many GNU/Linux
distributions?” question is given a new coat of paint:

“What is it with the collective egos of Linux coders that if one
distribution doesn’t suit them that they have to go and make a
new one”

GNU/Linux comes in different flavours to fit the end-users’ needs,
wants, desires and just for-the-heck-of-it sense of curiosity

Talk about missing the point. One reason there are “so many”
distributions is because there can be and the ones that keep going are
the ones that people find useful. Not every GNU/Linux user likes the
idea of installing a whole desktop system just to set up a firewall,
or a router or to re-cycle some of that hardware that Windows won’t
even get out-of-the-box for. Some want to play MP3s out-of-the-box, some
want a small install footprint, a faster boot time or a longer support
lifespan. Windows comes in different sizes to fit Microsoft’s sales
message. GNU/Linux comes in different flavours to fit the end-users’
needs, wants, desires and just for-the-heck-of-it sense of curiosity. The
author does offer a solution to the “problem”:

Instead of rallying behind a single distro and making it the OS to
beat, Linux grokkers tweak and promote their own Linux ‘flavours’.

So let’s dip into some analogies. Why are there so many amateur sports
clubs, spare-time inventors and (best of all) tech weblogs? Why don’t
any of the sports enthusiasts just get behind another local club and
make it the club to beat? And what’s with the collective ego’s of
tech bloggers that if one poorly supported anti-GNU/Linux rant doesn’t
suit them they have to go and make a new one?

Here’s a wake up call to those who keep asking the “why so many
distributions?” question: as long as GNU/Linux is available under
the GPL, there will be those who will tinker, tweak and create for no
reason other than to enhance their own experience and maybe help a few
others along the way. We tweak because we’re allowed to and because,
sometimes, it’s fun. The final straw

Their next point is not the one I laughed at the most, but after the
others it was the straw that broke the camel’s back (and I say that
as a part-time Perl monger). Apparently the real litmus test is the
documentation. Windows is — quite cleverly— not mentioned here
but instead the praises of Apple are sung loud and clear. GNU/Linux
documentation is apparently too archaic. Ubuntu is given some credit for
doing a “pretty decent job” but apparently that’s not enough. And
as for the rest.. “Well?”. Well what?

I’ve never purchased an Apple computer so I couldn’t tell anything
about the documentation. What I would say is that at the prices they
charge for their machines I’d expect it to be perfect. But what
documentation are we talking about here? The GNU/Linux system is made
up of thousands of applications, some of which are well documented and
others not so well. So are we talking about GNU/Linux documentation here
or free software documentation? No I’m not nit-picking because you see
there are thousands of excellent Howtos out there on a whole range of
subjects and not all of them will have the word “Linux” attached but
they all apply equally to applications that are run on GNU/Linux. Okay
so maybe it could be better collated but so could a lot of things,
including my CD collection. Another thing to remember is that there
is a whole secondary market of books that has grown up to fill this
very niche. Several of the publishers involved sponsor articles in this
magazine and you’ll find reviews of many tomes here as well. Yes they
cost money but I’ll wager it’s less than the cost of that Mac that
came with the shiny brochures. The dummy race

Their closing argument is this..

In essence, until Linux becomes dummy-proof, it’s not going to
win over consumers. Make it easy, make it accessible - until Linux
programmers get that, it’s more likely that Apple will perhaps
double its user base in the years to come at the expense of both
Windows and Linux. It’s not about the best OS winning - it’s
about the OS with the best user experience and Linux still isn’t
there yet.

What’s not about the best OS winning? And winning what? The
market? That’s changing as we both write, and a few years from now
probably won’t resemble the current one. When I read that statement
though I was reminded of the quote by Richard Cook:

“Programming today is a race between software engineers striving
to build bigger and better idiot- proof programs, and the Universe
trying to produce bigger and better idiots. So far, the Universe
is winning.”

If you make something simple to use, there will soon come along
another set of users too lazy, stubborn, or apathetic (but rarely too
“stupid”) to learn how to use it properly

“Dummy-proof” is a moving target. It’s one of those circle-of-life
things (as Disney like to say). If you make something simple to use,
there will soon come along another set of users too lazy, stubborn,
or apathetic (but rarely too “stupid”) to learn how to use it
properly. The answer is not (always) to make it easier to use —by
which most people seem to mean “hide half the functions”— but
to make learning it more interesting. The quality of a user experience
should not be judged by the cuteness of the help avatar or the number
of steps in a wizard (or even by calling it a wizard). It should also
be about how much it enhances your life/work, widens your perspective
and awakens the child-like hunger to learn in you. It should make you
want to show off what you can do to your friends. Well it is if you ask
me but I’m not sure any software, free or proprietary, has achieved
that yet. Still it’s a good target. Conclusion

Free software makes users participants again they are not mere consumers

As I said there have been a long line of posts like this, so why did this
one get my goat? I think it was because it addresses software users as
consumers. You see, for me, free software (including GNU/Linux) reverses
the trend that separates software supplier and consumer. I am one of those
who baulks when train drivers address passengers as “customers”. I
dislike it when TV viewers or radio listeners are treated like cash
machines. Making someone a consumer reduces their contribution to
fiscal terms and people are more than that. Free software makes users
participants again they are not mere consumers. Sure they may start out
that way, especially if they migrate from Windows, but in my experience
they usually learn pretty fast that this game has different rules. Rules
which let them play instead of just spectate. So you can’t really say
that because GNU/Linux is not addressing the needs of consumers it’s
failing, because largely it’s not trying to. There is no free software
marketing team, no advertising budget, no “mission statement”. Free
software and GNU/Linux are simply there. Pick them up, use them if you
want. If you don’t well that’s fine, it’s your freedom but as I
said before — the game has changed so comparing apples and air is a
bit of a waste really.

Write a full post in response to this! Similar articles

* Why Microsoft should not lose (and free software will still win)
* Let's stop playing the numbers game: free software has changed
the game. * Things you miss with GNU/Linux

2 Up Down Do you like this post? Vote for it! Copyright information

This entry is (C) Copyright by its author, 2004-2008. Unless a different
license is specified in the entry's body, the following license applies:
"Verbatim copying and distribution of this entire article is permitted
in any medium without royalty provided this notice is preserved and
appropriate attribution information (author, original site, original URL)
is included". Biography

Ryan Cartwright: Ryan Cartwright is IT Manager for Contact a Family, a
UK National charity for families with disabled children where they make
significant use of free software. He is also a free software advocate
and you might find him on the GLLUG mailing list. Views posted here are
his own - sadly.

--
http://www.mrbrklyn.com - Interesting Stuff
http://www.nylxs.com - Leadership Development in Free Software

So many immigrant groups have swept through our town that Brooklyn, like Atlantis, reaches mythological proportions in the mind of the world - RI Safir 1998

http://fairuse.nylxs.com DRM is THEFT - We are the STAKEHOLDERS - RI Safir 2002

"Yeah - I write Free Software...so SUE ME"

"The tremendous problem we face is that we are becoming sharecroppers to our own cultural heritage -- we need the ability to participate in our own society."

"> I'm an engineer. I choose the best tool for the job, politics be damned.<
You must be a stupid engineer then, because politcs and technology have been attached at the hip since the 1st dynasty in Ancient Egypt. I guess you missed that one."

© Copyright for the Digital Millennium

  1. 2008-07-01 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] C programming Workshop part II
  2. 2008-07-01 swd <sderrick-at-optonline.net> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Need to get rid of a whole bunch of programming
  3. 2008-07-01 email <ray-pub-at-rcn.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Need to get rid of a whole bunch of programming
  4. 2008-07-01 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Need to get rid of a whole bunch of programming books. TALK ABOUT FREE SOFTWARE!!!
  5. 2008-07-01 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Gates: Windows really sucks
  6. 2008-07-01 email <ray-pub-at-rcn.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Need to get rid of a whole bunch of programming
  7. 2008-07-02 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] [david-at-thekramers.net: Fedora 9 X dual screen problems]
  8. 2008-07-02 swd <sderrick-at-optonline.net> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Need to get rid of a whole bunch of programming
  9. 2008-07-02 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] C++ Workshop 2 (section 2.1)
  10. 2008-07-03 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] C++ Workshop 2.1
  11. 2008-07-03 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] July 4th
  12. 2008-07-03 Shoshana Rivka Safir <shani-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Post high school jobs or internships?
  13. 2008-07-03 meg7-at-nyu.edu Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] July 4th
  14. 2008-07-03 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] July 4th
  15. 2008-07-03 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] July 4th
  16. 2008-07-03 From: "Ronny Abraham" <ronny.coder-at-gmail.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Post high school jobs or internships?
  17. 2008-07-03 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] C++ Workshop 2.3
  18. 2008-07-03 From: "Michael L. Richardson" <mlr52-at-michaellrichardson.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Post high school jobs or internships?
  19. 2008-07-04 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] [alan-at-patriot.net: [Dclug] Our Fourth Amendment]
  20. 2008-07-04 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] 4th of July Plans
  21. 2008-07-04 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Workshops
  22. 2008-07-05 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Might be time for a visit to Congress again
  23. 2008-07-05 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Maybe its because lindows just sucked
  24. 2008-07-05 From: "Michael L. Richardson" <mlr52-at-mycouponmagic.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Workshops
  25. 2008-07-05 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Workshops
  26. 2008-07-06 From: "Ronny Abraham" <ronny.coder-at-gmail.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Maybe its because lindows just sucked
  27. 2008-07-07 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] [meissner-at-suse.de: [security-announce] SUSE Security Announcement: Linux kernel (SUSE-SA:2008:031)]
  28. 2008-07-07 Mark Simko <msimko-at-optonline.net> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Maybe its because lindows just sucked
  29. 2008-07-07 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] [meissner-at-suse.de: [security-announce] SUSE Security Announcement: Linux kernel (SUSE-SA:2008:032)]
  30. 2008-07-07 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Maybe its because lindows just sucked
  31. 2008-07-07 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Maybe its because lindows just sucked
  32. 2008-07-07 Mark Simko <msimko-at-optonline.net> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Maybe its because lindows just sucked
  33. 2008-07-07 Mark Simko <msimko-at-optonline.net> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Maybe its because lindows just sucked
  34. 2008-07-07 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Maybe its because lindows just sucked
  35. 2008-07-07 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Maybe its because lindows just sucked
  36. 2008-07-07 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Maybe its because lindows just sucked
  37. 2008-07-07 Mark Simko <msimko-at-optonline.net> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Maybe its because lindows just sucked
  38. 2008-07-07 Mark Simko <msimko-at-optonline.net> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Maybe its because lindows just sucked
  39. 2008-07-07 From: "Ronny Abraham" <ronny.coder-at-gmail.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Maybe its because lindows just sucked
  40. 2008-07-07 Ron Guerin <ron-at-vnetworx.net> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Maybe its because lindows just sucked
  41. 2008-07-07 From: "Ronny Abraham" <ronny.coder-at-gmail.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Post high school jobs or internships?
  42. 2008-07-07 From: "Ronny Abraham" <ronny.coder-at-gmail.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Maybe its because lindows just sucked
  43. 2008-07-07 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] [nyc-at-workatjelly.com: Jelly in Manhattan this Friday, 7/11]
  44. 2008-07-07 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Maybe its because lindows just sucked
  45. 2008-07-07 Ron Guerin <ron-at-vnetworx.net> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Maybe its because lindows just sucked
  46. 2008-07-07 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Maybe its because lindows just sucked
  47. 2008-07-07 From: "Ronny Abraham" <ronny.coder-at-gmail.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Maybe its because lindows just sucked
  48. 2008-07-08 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Maybe its because lindows just sucked
  49. 2008-07-08 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Maybe its because lindows just sucked
  50. 2008-07-08 Mark Simko <msimko-at-optonline.net> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Maybe its because lindows just sucked
  51. 2008-07-08 From: "Ronny Abraham" <ronny.coder-at-gmail.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Maybe its because lindows just sucked
  52. 2008-07-08 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Maybe its because lindows just sucked
  53. 2008-07-08 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Maybe its because lindows just sucked
  54. 2008-07-08 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Maybe its because lindows just sucked
  55. 2008-07-08 From: "Ronny Abraham" <ronny.coder-at-gmail.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Maybe its because lindows just sucked
  56. 2008-07-08 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Maybe its because lindows just sucked
  57. 2008-07-08 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] ASUS/GNU
  58. 2008-07-08 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] While we're on this topic
  59. 2008-07-08 From: "Tameek" <tameek-at-gmail.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] [nyc-at-workatjelly.com: Jelly in Manhattan this Friday, 7/11]
  60. 2008-07-08 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] [nyc-at-workatjelly.com: Jelly in Manhattan this Friday, 7/11]
  61. 2008-07-09 email <ray-pub-at-rcn.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] [nyc-at-workatjelly.com: Jelly in Manhattan this
  62. 2008-07-09 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Installfest this weekend?
  63. 2008-07-09 email <ray-pub-at-rcn.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Installfest this weekend?
  64. 2008-07-09 Mark Simko <msimko-at-optonline.net> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Post high school jobs or internships?
  65. 2008-07-12 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Installfest this weekend?
  66. 2008-07-12 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] GNU/Linux INSTALLFEST/HACKFEST NYC Local
  67. 2008-07-12 Contrarian <adrba-at-nyct.net> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] "Gates of Vienna" blog averts DMCA prosecution
  68. 2008-07-14 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Re: Linux on the desktop - it's come a long way, but is it there yet?
  69. 2008-07-15 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] so much for Apples Free Software pitch
  70. 2008-07-15 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] grep
  71. 2008-07-15 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] grep
  72. 2008-07-15 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] C++ Workshop 2.2
  73. 2008-07-18 Contrarian <adrba-at-nyct.net> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] [BrooklynFreeCycle] offer---- old library card catalog file cabinet
  74. 2008-07-18 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] HAckfest/Installfest
  75. 2008-07-18 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Re: [nylug-talk] HAckfest/Installfest
  76. 2008-07-18 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Hackfest/Installfest
  77. 2008-07-18 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Tax Exempy Status
  78. 2008-07-19 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Installfest/Hackfest Tomorrow
  79. 2008-07-20 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Installfest/Hackfest
  80. 2008-07-21 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] [notification+zjaayj4y-at-facebookmail.com: "Ted & Amy Supper Club (NYC)" sent you a message on Facebook...]
  81. 2008-07-22 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] C++ Workshop 2.2.3
  82. 2008-07-22 From: "Ronny Abraham" <ronny.coder-at-gmail.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] [notification+zjaayj4y-at-facebookmail.com: "Ted & Amy Supper Club (NYC)" sent you a message on Facebook...]
  83. 2008-07-22 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] [notification+zjaayj4y-at-facebookmail.com: "Ted & Amy Supper Club (NYC)" sent you a message on Facebook...]
  84. 2008-07-23 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] C Programming Workshop
  85. 2008-07-23 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] [dalmolin-at-e-cology.ca: [Hardhats] COMMITTEE ON WAYS AND MEANS: Promoting Health IT Hearing]
  86. 2008-07-23 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] C++ Workshop 2.3.4
  87. 2008-07-24 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Dell GNU Systems
  88. 2008-07-25 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] [rick-at-linuxmafia.com: [conspire] DNS vulnerability details]
  89. 2008-07-25 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Re: [conspire] DNS vulnerability details
  90. 2008-07-25 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Re: [conspire] DNS vulnerability details
  91. 2008-07-25 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Radio Broadcasting
  92. 2008-07-25 prmarino1-at-gmail.com Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] [rick-at-linuxmafia.com: [conspire] DNS vulnerability details]
  93. 2008-07-25 prmarino1-at-gmail.com Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] [rick-at-linuxmafia.com: [conspire] DNS vulnerability details]
  94. 2008-07-25 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Re: [conspire] DNS vulnerability details
  95. 2008-07-26 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] unionfs
  96. 2008-07-26 Mark Simko <msimko-at-optonline.net> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] unionfs
  97. 2008-07-26 From: "Michael L. Richardson" <mlr52-at-michaellrichardson.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] unionfs
  98. 2008-07-27 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] unionfs
  99. 2008-07-27 Mark Simko <msimko-at-optonline.net> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] unionfs
  100. 2008-07-27 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] unionfs
  101. 2008-07-27 Mark Simko <msimko-at-optonline.net> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] unionfs
  102. 2008-07-27 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] unionfs
  103. 2008-07-28 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] [nyc-at-workatjelly.com: Jelly in Fort Greene Friday, 8/1]
  104. 2008-07-29 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] [Volunteer4-at-JohnMcCain.com: McCain Campaign Internships]
  105. 2008-07-30 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] August Plans
  106. 2008-07-30 From: <tameek-at-gmail.com> RE: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] August Plans
  107. 2008-07-30 From: "Michael L. Richardson" <mlr52-at-michaellrichardson.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] August Plans
  108. 2008-07-30 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] August Plans
  109. 2008-07-30 email <ray-pub-at-rcn.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] August Plans
  110. 2008-07-30 From: <tameek-at-gmail.com> RE: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] August Plans
  111. 2008-07-30 From: "Michael L. Richardson" <mlr52-at-mycouponmagic.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] August Plans
  112. 2008-07-30 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] August Plans
  113. 2008-07-30 From: "Michael L. Richardson" <mlr52-at-michaellrichardson.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] August Plans
  114. 2008-07-30 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] August Plans
  115. 2008-07-30 From: <mlr52-at-michaellrichardson.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] August Plans
  116. 2008-07-31 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Time to trash the eeepc
  117. 2008-07-31 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] KDE really sucks
  118. 2008-07-31 email <ray-pub-at-rcn.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] KDE really sucks
  119. 2008-07-31 prmarino1-at-gmail.com Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Time to trash the eeepc
  120. 2008-07-31 prmarino1-at-gmail.com Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Time to trash the eeepc
  121. 2008-07-31 prmarino1-at-gmail.com Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] KDE really sucks
  122. 2008-07-31 prmarino1-at-gmail.com Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] KDE really sucks
  123. 2008-07-31 From: "Stan Davenport" <stan-at-Etrtechcenter.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Ruben,Opening On Long Island Near Hicksville RR Linix Developer Any
  124. 2008-07-31 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] KDE really sucks
  125. 2008-07-31 Mark Simko <msimko-at-optonline.net> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Time to trash the eeepc
  126. 2008-07-31 prmarino1-at-gmail.com Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Time to trash the eeepc
  127. 2008-07-31 prmarino1-at-gmail.com Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Time to trash the eeepc
  128. 2008-07-31 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Time to trash the eeepc
  129. 2008-07-31 From: <mlr52-at-michaellrichardson.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Time to trash the eeepc
  130. 2008-07-31 prmarino1-at-gmail.com Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Time to trash the eeepc
  131. 2008-07-31 prmarino1-at-gmail.com Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Time to trash the eeepc
  132. 2008-07-31 prmarino1-at-gmail.com Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Time to trash the eeepc
  133. 2008-07-31 prmarino1-at-gmail.com Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Time to trash the eeepc
  134. 2008-07-31 From: <mlr52-at-michaellrichardson.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Time to trash the eeepc

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