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DATE 2020-01-01

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MESSAGE
DATE 2020-01-06
FROM Ruben Safir
SUBJECT Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Fwd: Re: Proposals for the new GNU/FSF
From hangout-bounces-at-nylxs.com Mon Jan 6 07:24:18 2020
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<87v9ponb4i.fsf-at-gnu.org> <20200105064058.GK4632-at-protected.rcdrun.com>

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To: Hangout
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<4b3cb942f4cc1603511d7997ee8db70fbef3501d.camel-at-gnu.org>
Message-ID: <63d41ffc-9445-cce9-ccee-6aed57d7fddb-at-mrbrklyn.com>
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The GNU revolt continues

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Subject: Re: Proposals for the new GNU/FSF relationship
References: <20191227093926.GB62099-at-librem>
<877e24uahs.fsf-at-pobox.com>
From: Dora Scilipoti
To: gnu-misc-discuss-at-gnu.org
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Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2020 06:39:51 -0500
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On 01/06/2020 05:47 AM, Andy Wingo wrote:
> Please refrain from reposting the same arguments over and over again
> on this list, you've made them before already.

Please refrain from reposting false premises over and over again on this
list. You and your friends have done it many times already.

> Please also stop pretending that you speak on the behalf of the GNU
> project and GNU maintainers.

One could say the same thing to you.


--
Dora Scilipoti
GNU Education Team
gnu.org/education


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From: Andy Wingo
To: ams-at-gnu.org (Alfred M. Szmidt)
Subject: Re: Proposals for the new GNU/FSF relationship
In-Reply-To: (Alfred M. Szmidt's message
of "Fri, 27 Dec 2019 06:22:31 -0500")
References: <20191227093926.GB62099-at-librem>

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Please refrain from reposting the same arguments over and over again
on this list, you've made them before already.

Please also stop pretending that you speak on the behalf of the GNU
project and GNU maintainers.


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Subject: Re: GNU - Principles and Guidelines
To: Brett Gilio
References:



<3a1d5514-53ac-45fd-80c0-b20d65aaa7ea-at-localhost>

From: Dora Scilipoti
Message-ID:
Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2020 05:43:46 -0500
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Brett Gilio wrote:

> Alfred, if you really feel there is no substance at hand here, why
> not just leave the discussion?

Alfred is trying to correct the misinformation that is being spread here
as if it were unquestionable fact. This is an important thing to do so
one must hope he will not be driven away.



--
Dora Scilipoti
GNU Education Team
gnu.org/education


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From: Brandon Invergo
To: gnu-misc-discuss-at-gnu.org
Subject: Re: A summary of some open discussions
In-reply-to: <20191219233933.GJ3785-at-librem>
Date: Mon, 06 Jan 2020 10:16:13 +0000
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Mark Wielaard writes:

>> There is no such thing as a FSF steward, GNU maintainers are appointed
>> by RMS/GAC. The FSF has no say in the topic. You've keept
>> misrepresenting this over and over again.
>
> This is just a legal technicallity. The FSF has oversight
> responsibility over the GNU project. That means that the FSF needs to
> determine that GNU maintainers operate in a manner consistent with
> FSF's exempt purposes, have the needed expertise and that their
> activities can be monitored by the FSF board. So GNU Maintainers and
> Steering committees are technically appointed by the FSF (previously
> RMS when he was FSF president and board member) as stewards of GNU
> packages. Basically GNU maintainers serve at the pleasure of the FSF.

This is absolutely false.

As a member of the package evaluation team and as an Assistant
GNUissance (maintainers-at-gnu.org), I have personally been involved in
many appointments of new maintainers at every step of the process, from
first contact with GNU through to post-appointment bureaucracy and
occasional check-ins. I also have the authority to appoint new
maintainers of existing packages myself (only Richard can appoint
maintainers of new packages). In fact, I personally appointed some new
co-maintainers of Guix back in September, two weeks *after* Richard
resigned as president of the FSF, which Ludovic can confirm.

I can categorically say that the FSF is not involved whatsoever in the
appointment of new maintainers.

Please do not spread misinformation about the GNU project.

--
-brandon

ps - To correct Alfred: the GAC is also not involved in the appointment
of maintainers (unless Richard were to ask them for advice in specific
cases).


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Date: Sun, 5 Jan 2020 07:40:58 +0100
From: Jean Louis
To: DJ Delorie
Subject: Re: GNU - Principles and Guidelines
Message-ID: <20200105064058.GK4632-at-protected.rcdrun.com>
References: <20200104181109.GM4632-at-protected.rcdrun.com>

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* DJ Delorie [2020-01-04 21:03]:
> Jean Louis writes:
> > Why should any policy of GNU be changed when they have been
> > functioning well for decades?
>
> This argument was used when GPLv2 was introduced, and again with GPLv3.
> Things change, we must adapt. "The old way is good enough" is not a
> good long-term policy.

Things always change and improve over time, for as long as good people
are running those things, that is true.

The subject was not the improvement over time, subject was the current
change of policies or as you said "amend policies", as you would need
to have actual reason to amend anything, and in case of any amendments
and proposals, one should propose it to RMS, and if there is rejection
or lack of acceptance, one shall respectfully take it back.

Jean


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From: DJ Delorie
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Subject: Re: GNU - Principles and Guidelines
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Jean Louis writes:
> Why should any policy of GNU be changed when they have been
> functioning well for decades?

This argument was used when GPLv2 was introduced, and again with GPLv3.
Things change, we must adapt. "The old way is good enough" is not a
good long-term policy.


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From: Brandon Invergo
To: Mark Wielaard
Date: Sat, 04 Jan 2020 15:14:39 +0000
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On Fri, 2020-01-03 at 13:53 +0100, Mark Wielaard wrote:
>
> In general it is somewhat inconvenient if you can only post to the
> list from the address with which you are subscribed.

In practice, with only one or two exceptions from what I have seen so far, this
would only affect people whose messages tend to be rejected for content anyway.

If anyone is particularly inconvenienced by this change and they genuinely
intend to contribute to the discussion, they are welcome to get in touch. I can
either make a (mental) exception or we can find an alternative solution for
them. For example, you can change your account settings in Mailman not to send
messages to your "sending only" account.

If things cool down, we can be more lenient again in the future.

-brandon



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  36. 2020-01-12 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] GNU - Principles and Guidelines
  37. 2020-01-12 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] GNU - Principles and Guidelines
  38. 2020-01-12 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] built to last
  39. 2020-01-13 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] GNU - Principles and Guidelines
  40. 2020-01-13 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] Request to mailing list gnu-misc-discuss
  41. 2020-01-13 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] A summary of some open discussions
  42. 2020-01-13 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Fwd: Re: GNU - Principles and Guidelines
  43. 2020-01-13 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] GNU - Principles and Guidelines
  44. 2020-01-13 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Slowly the threat is coming into view
  45. 2020-01-12 Gabor Szabo <gabor-at-szabgab.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] [Perlweekly] #442 - Fellowship of the Perl
  46. 2020-01-13 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] GNU - Principles and Guidelines
  47. 2020-01-13 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] A summary of some open discussions
  48. 2020-01-13 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] A summary of some open discussions
  49. 2020-01-14 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] A summary of some open discussions
  50. 2020-01-14 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] A summary of some open discussions
  51. 2020-01-14 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] Moderation
  52. 2020-01-14 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] suspending FSF contributor agreements with
  53. 2020-01-14 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] Moderation
  54. 2020-01-14 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] A summary of some open discussions
  55. 2020-01-14 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] GNU - Principles and Guidelines
  56. 2020-01-14 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] GNU - Principles and Guidelines
  57. 2020-01-14 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] A summary of some open discussions
  58. 2020-01-14 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] GNU - Principles and Guidelines
  59. 2020-01-14 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] A summary of some open discussions
  60. 2020-01-14 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Fwd: Re: suspending FSF contributor agreements
  61. 2020-01-14 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] A summary of some open discussions
  62. 2020-01-14 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS]
  63. 2020-01-14 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Fwd: Re: suspending FSF contributor agreements
  64. 2020-01-14 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Fwd: Re: Moderation
  65. 2020-01-14 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Fwd: Re: suspending FSF contributor agreements
  66. 2020-01-14 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Fwd: Re: Moderation
  67. 2020-01-14 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] MAriaDB conference in NYC
  68. 2020-01-14 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] suspending FSF contributor agreements with
  69. 2020-01-15 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Fwd: Re: suspending FSF contributor agreements
  70. 2020-01-15 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Fwd: Re: A summary of some open discussions
  71. 2020-01-15 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Fwd: Re: A summary of some open discussions
  72. 2020-01-15 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Fwd: Re: A summary of some open discussions
  73. 2020-01-15 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Fwd: Re: A summary of some open discussions
  74. 2020-01-15 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Fwd: Re: Moderation
  75. 2020-01-15 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Fwd: Re: A summary of some open discussions
  76. 2020-01-15 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Fwd: Request to mailing list gnu-misc-discuss
  77. 2020-01-15 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Fwd: Request to mailing list gnu-misc-discuss
  78. 2020-01-15 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Fwd: Request to mailing list gnu-misc-discuss
  79. 2020-01-15 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Fwd: Request to mailing list gnu-misc-discuss
  80. 2020-01-15 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Fwd: Request to mailing list gnu-misc-discuss
  81. 2020-01-15 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Fwd: Request to mailing list gnu-misc-discuss
  82. 2020-01-15 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Fwd: Request to mailing list gnu-misc-discuss
  83. 2020-01-15 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Fwd: Request to mailing list gnu-misc-discuss
  84. 2020-01-15 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Fwd: Re: A summary of some open discussions
  85. 2020-01-15 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Fwd: Re: A summary of some open discussions
  86. 2020-01-17 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] the charge against Parnes and Fruman
  87. 2020-01-19 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Movie of the Week
  88. 2020-01-20 Gabor Szabo <gabor-at-szabgab.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] [Perlweekly] #443 - New Book: Mojolicious Web
  89. 2020-01-21 Rich Bowen <rbowen-at-apache.org> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] [users-at-httpd] Call for presentations for
  90. 2020-01-20 Alumni Association <jesse-at-gohiretalent.net> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Reminder: Special Invitation: HireNYC 2020 - Hire
  91. 2020-01-22 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] A summary of some open discussions
  92. 2020-01-22 From: "American Museum of Natural History" <mat-at-amnh.org> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] MAT Application Deadline Extended
  93. 2020-01-22 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Request to mailing list gnu-misc-discuss rejected
  94. 2020-01-22 From: "Donald Robertson, III, DBD" <info-at-defectivebydesign.org> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] It is time to end the DMCA anti-circumvention
  95. 2020-01-22 Ben Creisler <bcreisler-at-gmail.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] [dinosaur] Pan-Chelidae origin + amorphous carbon
  96. 2020-01-22 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Fwd: Re: A summary of some open discussions
  97. 2020-01-23 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] A summary of some open discussions
  98. 2020-01-23 NCPA eCommunications <ncpa.ecommunications-at-ncpanet.org> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Owners, the time is now | NCPA's qAM | Jan. 23,
  99. 2020-01-25 From: "Rijksmuseum" <nieuwsbrief-at-news.rijksmuseum.nl> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Rijksstudio Award 2020 | International design
  100. 2020-01-27 Olivier Hainque <hainque-at-adacore.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] GNU Tools Cauldron 2020
  101. 2020-01-28 From: "Carlos O'Donell" <carlos-at-systemhalted.org> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Feedback on the GNU Social contract and new
  102. 2020-01-28 ams-at-gnu.org (Alfred M. Szmidt) Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] Feedback on the GNU Social contract and new
  103. 2020-01-28 Jean Louis <bugs-at-gnu.support> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] Feedback on the GNU Social contract and new
  104. 2020-01-28 From: "Andreas R." <avr-at-softwarelibre.nl> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] Feedback on the GNU Social contract and new
  105. 2020-01-28 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] Feedback on the GNU Social contract and new
  106. 2020-01-28 Jean Louis <bugs-at-gnu.support> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] Feedback on the GNU Social contract and new
  107. 2020-01-28 DJ Delorie <dj-at-delorie.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] Feedback on the GNU Social contract and new
  108. 2020-01-28 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] Feedback on the GNU Social contract and new
  109. 2020-01-28 ams-at-gnu.org (Alfred M. Szmidt) Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] Feedback on the GNU Social contract and new
  110. 2020-01-28 From: "Carlos O'Donell" <carlos-at-systemhalted.org> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Feedback on the GNU Social contract and new
  111. 2020-01-28 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] Feedback on the GNU Social contract and new
  112. 2020-01-28 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] Feedback on the GNU Social contract and new
  113. 2020-01-29 Jean Louis <bugs-at-gnu.support> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] Feedback on the GNU Social contract and new
  114. 2020-01-30 IEEE Spectrum <ieee-spectrum-at-deliver.ieee.org> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Tech Alert
  115. 2020-01-30 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] You might find this to be of interest
  116. 2020-01-30 baruchd <baruchd-at-optonline.net> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] You might find this to be of interest
  117. 2020-01-30 NCPA eCommunications <ncpa.ecommunications-at-ncpanet.org> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] It's time for some personal advocacy | NCPA's qAM
  118. 2020-01-30 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] You might find this to be of interest
  119. 2020-01-28 From: =?utf-8?Q?Ludovic_Court=C3=A8s?= <ludo-at-gnu.org> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] Feedback on the GNU Social contract and new
  120. 2020-01-29 From: =?utf-8?Q?Ludovic_Court=C3=A8s?= <ludo-at-gnu.org> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] Feedback on the GNU Social contract and new
  121. 2020-01-22 NCPA eCommunications <ncpa.ecommunications-at-ncpanet.org> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] It's your chance to speak truth to power | NCPA's

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