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DATE 2020-01-01

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MESSAGE
DATE 2020-01-08
FROM Ruben Safir
SUBJECT Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] A summary of some open discussions
From hangout-bounces-at-nylxs.com Wed Jan 8 14:08:25 2020
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From: Ruben Safir
To: Hangout
References:
<20191219233933.GJ3785-at-librem> <87v9ponb4i.fsf-at-gnu.org>
<87h818d9jy.fsf-at-gnu.org> <87r20cissd.fsf-at-gnu.org> <87tv58s7j5.fsf-at-pobox.com>
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I've been watching Debian for nearly 30 years ...

I know exactly hwo it work and it is top down


On 1/8/20 12:30 PM, Samuel Thibault wrote:
> Fixing some facts here.
>
> nylxs, le mer. 08 janv. 2020 10:19:26 -0500, a ecrit:
>> On 1/8/20 4:37 AM, Andreas Enge wrote:
>>>> All volunteer organizations are top down, even Debian...
>>> That is clearly wrong, and well documented for Debian.
>> Actually it is correct. Debian has governance and although it has
>> elections and it is clearly top down
> You don't seem to have any idea how Debian actually works.
>
>> It is designed with project leaders on top
> Not really. There is a project leader, but in practice the leader has
> little impact in everyday work: one can create webpages, wikis, new
> services etc. at will.
>
>> when systemD was adopted,
> The systemd question was not about adoption (adding it to the archive
> was really not a concern), but about whether to make it a default/only
> choice. Which is a collective concern, and thus was discusssed
> collectively. The leader can help the discussion to happen but in the
> end it's a vote which settled what the community wanted to do.

Only if the "community" is top down the governance.


>
>> people were shocked that Debian can have coercive authority
> It was not a question of coercion, but to decide collectively which way
> we go. Which is what being part of a community is all about. Yes, it
> means that people have to follow what was decided. That's also what a
> community is about.
>
>> and they broke off and forked over distros
> Yes, that's unfortunate, but that can't be helped with. Different goals,
> thus different projects.
>
>> [Debian] could NEVER do what GNU does because it gives too much power
>> to the project leaders
> ?? GNU gives *way* more power to its leader than Debian does to its
> leader.
>

No - Debian gives too much power to the individual project leaders, not
the Debian Debian leader.

>> the Debian Technical Committee can, in the end, overule and govern
> No. It only settles a disagreement between two developers. It does not
> govern, it just breaks ties. It is used as less as possible, only when
> discussion didn't work in the end.
>
>> the entire OS.
> Certainly not the entire OS. I have been for instance working in the
> accessibility team completely the way I wanted, creating whatever
> repositories, wikis, giving commit access like I wanted. At some point
> there was interaction with other pieces of the OS, so discussion was
> needed, and they happened directly with the corresponding teams. It
> never went through the technical committee or leader. It would only have
> been on an unsolved disagreement that we would have had to resort to the
> technical committee.
>

which is one reason Debian continues to suck. They wait for people to
just do things, and then they complain, discuss and then they make a top
down decision.

I don't want this garbage approach for GNU.


All Volunteer organizations are top down. Maybe not the French
Communist party, or the 99% movement, but all the rest of them.

>> Meanwhile, go volunteer at the American Museum of Natural History and
>> see if you can move the T-Rex around...
>> Good luck with that.
> Which, to my opinion, is not a good thing.


It is a ***GREAT*** thing, as a fact, anyone else's opinion not
withstanding. It means that the leadership is responsible 100% for the
direction of the institution, and it assures real standards. It
prevents a hostile takeover by flat-earthers. It allows for diving into
controversial issues without having to worry about internal blow back
from within.

Nobody should want be part of an organization where the mice can take
over the boat. GNU is lead by, created by, and the vision of Richard M
Stallman as a platform for his explicit political and educational goals.

If someone can't live with those goals, and that leadership, then they
__need__ to leave.

It's OK. Really, it is. There is Microsoft you can work for, or some
open source something or other program... or if you love it so much...
work for Debian. Libreboot? Are they in or out of GNU this week?
Gnome? Ximinan? OpenSuse? Caldera

Wikipedia is perfect for your aspirations.

Nobody will hate you any __more__ for it. You are being invited,
baited, goated, to just pick up and leave GNU and do your own thing.

Like Mork from Ork said... Fly - Be Free
https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/robin-williams-the-darkness-and-the-light-were-indivisible-9664527.html
> Organizations which can't
> evolve go extinct.

That is a meaningless catchall statement to justify slandering Richard
and trying to take GNU from him. It is not acceptable in an adult
conversation.

>
>> Go tell Linus Tovalds how to run the Linux Kernel... see how fa you get
> Linus gives a lot of delegation.


So does Richard.

> In the end he is the last merge point,
> but he completely trusts direct subtree maintainers, who can work the
> way they wish.

No he does not. He squashes many disputes and intervenes at will into
anything he wants...a lot more than RMS does, as a matter of fact.




--
So many immigrant groups have swept through our town
that Brooklyn, like Atlantis, reaches mythological
proportions in the mind of the world - RI Safir 1998
http://www.mrbrklyn.com
DRM is THEFT - We are the STAKEHOLDERS - RI Safir 2002

http://www.nylxs.com - Leadership Development in Free Software
http://www.brooklyn-living.com

Being so tracked is for FARM ANIMALS and extermination camps,
but incompatible with living as a free human being. -RI Safir 2013
_______________________________________________
Hangout mailing list
Hangout-at-nylxs.com
http://lists.mrbrklyn.com/mailman/listinfo/hangout

  1. 2020-01-02 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] Proposals for the new GNU/FSF relationship
  2. 2020-01-05 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] AI revolution
  3. 2020-01-05 Shorefront News <donotreply-at-wordpress.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] =?utf-8?b?W05ldyBwb3N0XSBHYXJnaXVsb+KAmXMgUGFy?=
  4. 2020-01-06 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Fwd: Re: Proposals for the new GNU/FSF
  5. 2020-01-07 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] embperl bug
  6. 2020-01-07 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] Fwd: undefined value in Emperl/Util.pm
  7. 2020-01-07 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] Apache 2.4?
  8. 2020-01-08 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] A summary of some open discussions
  9. 2020-01-08 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS]
  10. 2020-01-08 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Fwd: Re: GNU - Principles and Guidelines
  11. 2020-01-08 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] A summary of some open discussions
  12. 2020-01-08 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] GNU - Principles and Guidelines
  13. 2020-01-08 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Fwd: Re: A summary of some open discussions
  14. 2020-01-08 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Fwd: Re: Proposals for the new GNU/FSF
  15. 2020-01-08 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Request to mailing list gnu-misc-discuss rejected
  16. 2020-01-08 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Request to mailing list gnu-misc-discuss rejected
  17. 2020-01-08 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] A summary of some open discussions
  18. 2020-01-08 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Fwd: Re: A summary of some open discussions
  19. 2020-01-08 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Fwd: Re: Proposals for the new GNU/FSF
  20. 2020-01-08 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Fwd: Re: A summary of some open discussions
  21. 2020-01-08 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Fwd: Re: A summary of some open discussions
  22. 2020-01-08 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Fwd: Re: A summary of some open discussions
  23. 2020-01-08 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Fwd: Re: A summary of some open discussions
  24. 2020-01-08 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Fwd: Re: A summary of some open discussions
  25. 2020-01-08 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] GNU - Principles and Guidelines
  26. 2020-01-08 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] A summary of some open discussions
  27. 2020-01-08 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS]
  28. 2020-01-08 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS]
  29. 2020-01-09 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Movie of the WEEK! - Starring OJ Simpson
  30. 2020-01-09 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Facial Recongition in NYC Traffic
  31. 2020-01-10 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] THis is the other WWI film
  32. 2020-01-12 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Fwd: Re: GNU - Principles and Guidelines
  33. 2020-01-12 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS]
  34. 2020-01-12 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] GNU - Principles and Guidelines
  35. 2020-01-12 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] GNU - Principles and Guidelines
  36. 2020-01-12 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] GNU - Principles and Guidelines
  37. 2020-01-12 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] GNU - Principles and Guidelines
  38. 2020-01-12 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] built to last
  39. 2020-01-13 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] GNU - Principles and Guidelines
  40. 2020-01-13 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] Request to mailing list gnu-misc-discuss
  41. 2020-01-13 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] A summary of some open discussions
  42. 2020-01-13 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Fwd: Re: GNU - Principles and Guidelines
  43. 2020-01-13 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] GNU - Principles and Guidelines
  44. 2020-01-13 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Slowly the threat is coming into view
  45. 2020-01-12 Gabor Szabo <gabor-at-szabgab.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] [Perlweekly] #442 - Fellowship of the Perl
  46. 2020-01-13 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] GNU - Principles and Guidelines
  47. 2020-01-13 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] A summary of some open discussions
  48. 2020-01-13 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] A summary of some open discussions
  49. 2020-01-14 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] A summary of some open discussions
  50. 2020-01-14 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] A summary of some open discussions
  51. 2020-01-14 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] Moderation
  52. 2020-01-14 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] suspending FSF contributor agreements with
  53. 2020-01-14 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] Moderation
  54. 2020-01-14 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] A summary of some open discussions
  55. 2020-01-14 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] GNU - Principles and Guidelines
  56. 2020-01-14 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] GNU - Principles and Guidelines
  57. 2020-01-14 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] A summary of some open discussions
  58. 2020-01-14 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] GNU - Principles and Guidelines
  59. 2020-01-14 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] A summary of some open discussions
  60. 2020-01-14 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Fwd: Re: suspending FSF contributor agreements
  61. 2020-01-14 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] A summary of some open discussions
  62. 2020-01-14 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS]
  63. 2020-01-14 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Fwd: Re: suspending FSF contributor agreements
  64. 2020-01-14 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Fwd: Re: Moderation
  65. 2020-01-14 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Fwd: Re: suspending FSF contributor agreements
  66. 2020-01-14 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Fwd: Re: Moderation
  67. 2020-01-14 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] MAriaDB conference in NYC
  68. 2020-01-14 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] suspending FSF contributor agreements with
  69. 2020-01-15 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Fwd: Re: suspending FSF contributor agreements
  70. 2020-01-15 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Fwd: Re: A summary of some open discussions
  71. 2020-01-15 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Fwd: Re: A summary of some open discussions
  72. 2020-01-15 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Fwd: Re: A summary of some open discussions
  73. 2020-01-15 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Fwd: Re: A summary of some open discussions
  74. 2020-01-15 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Fwd: Re: Moderation
  75. 2020-01-15 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Fwd: Re: A summary of some open discussions
  76. 2020-01-15 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Fwd: Request to mailing list gnu-misc-discuss
  77. 2020-01-15 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Fwd: Request to mailing list gnu-misc-discuss
  78. 2020-01-15 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Fwd: Request to mailing list gnu-misc-discuss
  79. 2020-01-15 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Fwd: Request to mailing list gnu-misc-discuss
  80. 2020-01-15 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Fwd: Request to mailing list gnu-misc-discuss
  81. 2020-01-15 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Fwd: Request to mailing list gnu-misc-discuss
  82. 2020-01-15 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Fwd: Request to mailing list gnu-misc-discuss
  83. 2020-01-15 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Fwd: Request to mailing list gnu-misc-discuss
  84. 2020-01-15 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Fwd: Re: A summary of some open discussions
  85. 2020-01-15 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Fwd: Re: A summary of some open discussions
  86. 2020-01-17 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] the charge against Parnes and Fruman
  87. 2020-01-19 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Movie of the Week
  88. 2020-01-20 Gabor Szabo <gabor-at-szabgab.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] [Perlweekly] #443 - New Book: Mojolicious Web
  89. 2020-01-21 Rich Bowen <rbowen-at-apache.org> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] [users-at-httpd] Call for presentations for
  90. 2020-01-20 Alumni Association <jesse-at-gohiretalent.net> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Reminder: Special Invitation: HireNYC 2020 - Hire
  91. 2020-01-22 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] A summary of some open discussions
  92. 2020-01-22 From: "American Museum of Natural History" <mat-at-amnh.org> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] MAT Application Deadline Extended
  93. 2020-01-22 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Request to mailing list gnu-misc-discuss rejected
  94. 2020-01-22 From: "Donald Robertson, III, DBD" <info-at-defectivebydesign.org> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] It is time to end the DMCA anti-circumvention
  95. 2020-01-22 Ben Creisler <bcreisler-at-gmail.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] [dinosaur] Pan-Chelidae origin + amorphous carbon
  96. 2020-01-22 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Fwd: Re: A summary of some open discussions
  97. 2020-01-23 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] A summary of some open discussions
  98. 2020-01-23 NCPA eCommunications <ncpa.ecommunications-at-ncpanet.org> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Owners, the time is now | NCPA's qAM | Jan. 23,
  99. 2020-01-25 From: "Rijksmuseum" <nieuwsbrief-at-news.rijksmuseum.nl> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Rijksstudio Award 2020 | International design
  100. 2020-01-27 Olivier Hainque <hainque-at-adacore.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] GNU Tools Cauldron 2020
  101. 2020-01-28 From: "Carlos O'Donell" <carlos-at-systemhalted.org> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Feedback on the GNU Social contract and new
  102. 2020-01-28 ams-at-gnu.org (Alfred M. Szmidt) Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] Feedback on the GNU Social contract and new
  103. 2020-01-28 Jean Louis <bugs-at-gnu.support> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] Feedback on the GNU Social contract and new
  104. 2020-01-28 From: "Andreas R." <avr-at-softwarelibre.nl> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] Feedback on the GNU Social contract and new
  105. 2020-01-28 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] Feedback on the GNU Social contract and new
  106. 2020-01-28 Jean Louis <bugs-at-gnu.support> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] Feedback on the GNU Social contract and new
  107. 2020-01-28 DJ Delorie <dj-at-delorie.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] Feedback on the GNU Social contract and new
  108. 2020-01-28 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] Feedback on the GNU Social contract and new
  109. 2020-01-28 ams-at-gnu.org (Alfred M. Szmidt) Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] Feedback on the GNU Social contract and new
  110. 2020-01-28 From: "Carlos O'Donell" <carlos-at-systemhalted.org> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Feedback on the GNU Social contract and new
  111. 2020-01-28 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] Feedback on the GNU Social contract and new
  112. 2020-01-28 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] Feedback on the GNU Social contract and new
  113. 2020-01-29 Jean Louis <bugs-at-gnu.support> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] Feedback on the GNU Social contract and new
  114. 2020-01-30 IEEE Spectrum <ieee-spectrum-at-deliver.ieee.org> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Tech Alert
  115. 2020-01-30 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] You might find this to be of interest
  116. 2020-01-30 baruchd <baruchd-at-optonline.net> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] You might find this to be of interest
  117. 2020-01-30 NCPA eCommunications <ncpa.ecommunications-at-ncpanet.org> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] It's time for some personal advocacy | NCPA's qAM
  118. 2020-01-30 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] You might find this to be of interest
  119. 2020-01-28 From: =?utf-8?Q?Ludovic_Court=C3=A8s?= <ludo-at-gnu.org> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] Feedback on the GNU Social contract and new
  120. 2020-01-29 From: =?utf-8?Q?Ludovic_Court=C3=A8s?= <ludo-at-gnu.org> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] Feedback on the GNU Social contract and new
  121. 2020-01-22 NCPA eCommunications <ncpa.ecommunications-at-ncpanet.org> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] It's your chance to speak truth to power | NCPA's

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