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DATE 2020-01-01

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Key: Value:

Key: Value:

MESSAGE
DATE 2020-01-12
FROM Ruben Safir
SUBJECT Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Fwd: Re: GNU - Principles and Guidelines
From hangout-bounces-at-nylxs.com Sun Jan 12 08:25:59 2020
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> > * The GNU Project and the free software community
> >
> > The GNU project stakeholders are all users of the GNU system as represe=
nted by the FSF. As such, an =

> > FSF-sponsored maintainer for the GNU system as a whole (the Chief GNUis=
ance) will ensure the GNU Project =

> > adheres to FSF guidelines pertaining to the GNU project in particular a=
nd software freedom in general.
> =

> Two comments:
> =

> =E2=80=A2 Users of GNU matter, but they are not, to me, =E2=80=9Cstakeh=
olders=E2=80=9D in the
> same sense as people who dedicate much of their time building GNU
> (webmasters, sysadmins, developers, maintainers, etc.).
> =

> We envisioned the social contract as a connection among all these
> stakeholders and as a pledge to people outside the project,
> including users.

I would argue users of GNU are not "stakeholders" *to the same degree*
as people who
dedicate their time building GNU, but certainly "in the same sense". GNU
is not simply a product
where consumers would have no say in a company's products other than not
buying it.

During the early drafts there was some discussion about the definition
of "stakeholder" but
it proved difficult to establish without being too exclusive and the
matter was dropped.

Fortunately another thread called "What is a software stakeholder" was
recently created to address the problem directly.
DJ Delorie quoted a wikipedia page about project management which had
the quote "Think broadly about stakeholders. This is good project
management practice."

If any project should think broadly about stakeholders, it should be
GNU, because its goal is not strictly a technical feat.

Those who deploy GNU, or advocate GNU, or even simply run GNU have a
direct stake in the project, because GNU is not just a product. If the
social contract is about fairness in governance, everybody stakeholder
should be represented to a degree.

Finding a precise and generally acceptable definition of "stakeholder"
might be one of the things that
is holding back adoption and acceptance of this document.

As far as I'm concerned, rms has always represented me in the GNU
project. He is the one I could contact
directly with any concerns or questions.

After he stepped down from the FSF, he told me to trust the FSF. Having
known of Alexandre Oliva's track record for a long time, this was not
hard to accept.

If someone wants to restructure GNU governance and abolish the role of
the Chief GNUisance and
cut out the FSF, something needs to replace that implicit chain of trust.

No design of new governance so far has addressed the implicit chain of
trust to any satisfaction, and those in favour of
restructuring have given me no reason to trust them, but even if they
had, there's no oversight
that guarantees the new governance structures wouldn't be corrupted from
the inside over time. And given the scope of the GNU project, "over
time" isn't measured in quarterly goals, but centuries,
if not millenia; it is, or should be, part of the future of our species.

It's fair to discuss governance of the GNU project in a post-rms era.
It's not fair to say "Trust us, we
know what we're doing. We're the good guys."

Having to trust rms is a historical necessity and a fluke. We're lucky
it turned out okay-ish. I agree relying
on flukes is not a solid plan for the future, but any replacement plans
should address all aspects
of what he represents.

_______________________________________________
Hangout mailing list
Hangout-at-nylxs.com
http://lists.mrbrklyn.com/mailman/listinfo/hangout

  1. 2020-01-02 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] Proposals for the new GNU/FSF relationship
  2. 2020-01-05 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] AI revolution
  3. 2020-01-05 Shorefront News <donotreply-at-wordpress.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] =?utf-8?b?W05ldyBwb3N0XSBHYXJnaXVsb+KAmXMgUGFy?=
  4. 2020-01-06 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Fwd: Re: Proposals for the new GNU/FSF
  5. 2020-01-07 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] embperl bug
  6. 2020-01-07 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] Fwd: undefined value in Emperl/Util.pm
  7. 2020-01-07 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] Apache 2.4?
  8. 2020-01-08 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] A summary of some open discussions
  9. 2020-01-08 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS]
  10. 2020-01-08 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Fwd: Re: GNU - Principles and Guidelines
  11. 2020-01-08 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] A summary of some open discussions
  12. 2020-01-08 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] GNU - Principles and Guidelines
  13. 2020-01-08 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Fwd: Re: A summary of some open discussions
  14. 2020-01-08 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Fwd: Re: Proposals for the new GNU/FSF
  15. 2020-01-08 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Request to mailing list gnu-misc-discuss rejected
  16. 2020-01-08 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Request to mailing list gnu-misc-discuss rejected
  17. 2020-01-08 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] A summary of some open discussions
  18. 2020-01-08 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Fwd: Re: A summary of some open discussions
  19. 2020-01-08 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Fwd: Re: Proposals for the new GNU/FSF
  20. 2020-01-08 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Fwd: Re: A summary of some open discussions
  21. 2020-01-08 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Fwd: Re: A summary of some open discussions
  22. 2020-01-08 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Fwd: Re: A summary of some open discussions
  23. 2020-01-08 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Fwd: Re: A summary of some open discussions
  24. 2020-01-08 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Fwd: Re: A summary of some open discussions
  25. 2020-01-08 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] GNU - Principles and Guidelines
  26. 2020-01-08 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] A summary of some open discussions
  27. 2020-01-08 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS]
  28. 2020-01-08 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS]
  29. 2020-01-09 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Movie of the WEEK! - Starring OJ Simpson
  30. 2020-01-09 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Facial Recongition in NYC Traffic
  31. 2020-01-10 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] THis is the other WWI film
  32. 2020-01-12 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Fwd: Re: GNU - Principles and Guidelines
  33. 2020-01-12 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS]
  34. 2020-01-12 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] GNU - Principles and Guidelines
  35. 2020-01-12 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] GNU - Principles and Guidelines
  36. 2020-01-12 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] GNU - Principles and Guidelines
  37. 2020-01-12 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] GNU - Principles and Guidelines
  38. 2020-01-12 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] built to last
  39. 2020-01-13 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] GNU - Principles and Guidelines
  40. 2020-01-13 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] Request to mailing list gnu-misc-discuss
  41. 2020-01-13 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] A summary of some open discussions
  42. 2020-01-13 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Fwd: Re: GNU - Principles and Guidelines
  43. 2020-01-13 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] GNU - Principles and Guidelines
  44. 2020-01-13 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Slowly the threat is coming into view
  45. 2020-01-12 Gabor Szabo <gabor-at-szabgab.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] [Perlweekly] #442 - Fellowship of the Perl
  46. 2020-01-13 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] GNU - Principles and Guidelines
  47. 2020-01-13 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] A summary of some open discussions
  48. 2020-01-13 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] A summary of some open discussions
  49. 2020-01-14 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] A summary of some open discussions
  50. 2020-01-14 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] A summary of some open discussions
  51. 2020-01-14 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] Moderation
  52. 2020-01-14 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] suspending FSF contributor agreements with
  53. 2020-01-14 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] Moderation
  54. 2020-01-14 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] A summary of some open discussions
  55. 2020-01-14 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] GNU - Principles and Guidelines
  56. 2020-01-14 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] GNU - Principles and Guidelines
  57. 2020-01-14 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] A summary of some open discussions
  58. 2020-01-14 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] GNU - Principles and Guidelines
  59. 2020-01-14 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] A summary of some open discussions
  60. 2020-01-14 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Fwd: Re: suspending FSF contributor agreements
  61. 2020-01-14 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] A summary of some open discussions
  62. 2020-01-14 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS]
  63. 2020-01-14 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Fwd: Re: suspending FSF contributor agreements
  64. 2020-01-14 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Fwd: Re: Moderation
  65. 2020-01-14 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Fwd: Re: suspending FSF contributor agreements
  66. 2020-01-14 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Fwd: Re: Moderation
  67. 2020-01-14 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] MAriaDB conference in NYC
  68. 2020-01-14 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] suspending FSF contributor agreements with
  69. 2020-01-15 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Fwd: Re: suspending FSF contributor agreements
  70. 2020-01-15 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Fwd: Re: A summary of some open discussions
  71. 2020-01-15 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Fwd: Re: A summary of some open discussions
  72. 2020-01-15 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Fwd: Re: A summary of some open discussions
  73. 2020-01-15 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Fwd: Re: A summary of some open discussions
  74. 2020-01-15 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Fwd: Re: Moderation
  75. 2020-01-15 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Fwd: Re: A summary of some open discussions
  76. 2020-01-15 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Fwd: Request to mailing list gnu-misc-discuss
  77. 2020-01-15 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Fwd: Request to mailing list gnu-misc-discuss
  78. 2020-01-15 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Fwd: Request to mailing list gnu-misc-discuss
  79. 2020-01-15 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Fwd: Request to mailing list gnu-misc-discuss
  80. 2020-01-15 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Fwd: Request to mailing list gnu-misc-discuss
  81. 2020-01-15 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Fwd: Request to mailing list gnu-misc-discuss
  82. 2020-01-15 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Fwd: Request to mailing list gnu-misc-discuss
  83. 2020-01-15 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Fwd: Request to mailing list gnu-misc-discuss
  84. 2020-01-15 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Fwd: Re: A summary of some open discussions
  85. 2020-01-15 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Fwd: Re: A summary of some open discussions
  86. 2020-01-17 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] the charge against Parnes and Fruman
  87. 2020-01-19 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Movie of the Week
  88. 2020-01-20 Gabor Szabo <gabor-at-szabgab.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] [Perlweekly] #443 - New Book: Mojolicious Web
  89. 2020-01-21 Rich Bowen <rbowen-at-apache.org> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] [users-at-httpd] Call for presentations for
  90. 2020-01-20 Alumni Association <jesse-at-gohiretalent.net> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Reminder: Special Invitation: HireNYC 2020 - Hire
  91. 2020-01-22 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] A summary of some open discussions
  92. 2020-01-22 From: "American Museum of Natural History" <mat-at-amnh.org> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] MAT Application Deadline Extended
  93. 2020-01-22 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Request to mailing list gnu-misc-discuss rejected
  94. 2020-01-22 From: "Donald Robertson, III, DBD" <info-at-defectivebydesign.org> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] It is time to end the DMCA anti-circumvention
  95. 2020-01-22 Ben Creisler <bcreisler-at-gmail.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] [dinosaur] Pan-Chelidae origin + amorphous carbon
  96. 2020-01-22 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Fwd: Re: A summary of some open discussions
  97. 2020-01-23 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] A summary of some open discussions
  98. 2020-01-23 NCPA eCommunications <ncpa.ecommunications-at-ncpanet.org> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Owners, the time is now | NCPA's qAM | Jan. 23,
  99. 2020-01-25 From: "Rijksmuseum" <nieuwsbrief-at-news.rijksmuseum.nl> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Rijksstudio Award 2020 | International design
  100. 2020-01-27 Olivier Hainque <hainque-at-adacore.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] GNU Tools Cauldron 2020
  101. 2020-01-28 From: "Carlos O'Donell" <carlos-at-systemhalted.org> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Feedback on the GNU Social contract and new
  102. 2020-01-28 ams-at-gnu.org (Alfred M. Szmidt) Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] Feedback on the GNU Social contract and new
  103. 2020-01-28 Jean Louis <bugs-at-gnu.support> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] Feedback on the GNU Social contract and new
  104. 2020-01-28 From: "Andreas R." <avr-at-softwarelibre.nl> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] Feedback on the GNU Social contract and new
  105. 2020-01-28 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] Feedback on the GNU Social contract and new
  106. 2020-01-28 Jean Louis <bugs-at-gnu.support> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] Feedback on the GNU Social contract and new
  107. 2020-01-28 DJ Delorie <dj-at-delorie.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] Feedback on the GNU Social contract and new
  108. 2020-01-28 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] Feedback on the GNU Social contract and new
  109. 2020-01-28 ams-at-gnu.org (Alfred M. Szmidt) Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] Feedback on the GNU Social contract and new
  110. 2020-01-28 From: "Carlos O'Donell" <carlos-at-systemhalted.org> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Feedback on the GNU Social contract and new
  111. 2020-01-28 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] Feedback on the GNU Social contract and new
  112. 2020-01-28 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] Feedback on the GNU Social contract and new
  113. 2020-01-29 Jean Louis <bugs-at-gnu.support> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] Feedback on the GNU Social contract and new
  114. 2020-01-30 IEEE Spectrum <ieee-spectrum-at-deliver.ieee.org> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Tech Alert
  115. 2020-01-30 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] You might find this to be of interest
  116. 2020-01-30 baruchd <baruchd-at-optonline.net> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] You might find this to be of interest
  117. 2020-01-30 NCPA eCommunications <ncpa.ecommunications-at-ncpanet.org> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] It's time for some personal advocacy | NCPA's qAM
  118. 2020-01-30 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] You might find this to be of interest
  119. 2020-01-28 From: =?utf-8?Q?Ludovic_Court=C3=A8s?= <ludo-at-gnu.org> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] Feedback on the GNU Social contract and new
  120. 2020-01-29 From: =?utf-8?Q?Ludovic_Court=C3=A8s?= <ludo-at-gnu.org> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] Feedback on the GNU Social contract and new
  121. 2020-01-22 NCPA eCommunications <ncpa.ecommunications-at-ncpanet.org> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] It's your chance to speak truth to power | NCPA's

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