MESSAGE
| DATE | 2020-12-22 |
| FROM | John Dunlap
|
| SUBJECT | Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] suggestions for perl as web development
|
From hangout-bounces-at-nylxs.com Tue Dec 22 15:33:21 2020
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In-Reply-To: <71d95b7caf4b4ebcbce3d9cf6e4f3dc4-at-sanger.ac.uk>
From: John Dunlap
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2020 09:06:20 -0600
Message-ID:
To: James Smith
Cc: Vincent Veyron ,
mod_perl list
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="0000000000008bcb8005b70eeb7e"
Subject: Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] suggestions for perl as web development
language [EXT]
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We have hundreds of users polling our servers every few seconds just
waiting for events. In the near future, I'm going to have to do a refactor
to avoid users polling two different endpoints for different kinds of
events. The vast majority of the request in our access logs are polling
requests and they put significant load on our systems that I would prefer
to avoid. Additionally, web sockets aren't just for pushing content to the
browser. If you use them in the opposite direction, they improve
performance because you can avoid opening/closing a new connection and
because you can avoid the overhead of the HTTP protocol resulting in
shorter request times.
On Tue, Dec 22, 2020 at 8:32 AM James Smith wrote:
> There are not many applications which really benefit from multiple thread=
s
> in web server environments unless you have very low load =E2=80=93 as the=
y are only
> efficient as they can use multiple cores, so you need stupidly speced
> machines to manage this load properly, and if you are using external
> resources can often be blocking anyway.
>
> Yes mod_perl doesn=E2=80=99t do web-sockets =E2=80=93 but usually that is=
n=E2=80=99t an issue
> unless you have the need to push when people update content and you want =
it
> immediately available. There are others issues to consider with web-socke=
ts
> e.g. port usage to keep the connections open. If you don=E2=80=99t need t=
hat
> immediate response =E2=80=93 polling can achieve the desired effect =E2=
=80=93 and Apache
> can even tell the client how long you need to wait before you send anothe=
r
> connection.
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* John Dunlap
> *Sent:* 22 December 2020 13:35
> *To:* Vincent Veyron
> *Cc:* mod_perl list
> *Subject:* Re: suggestions for perl as web development language [EXT]
>
>
>
> mod_perl is horribly inefficient because prefork is inefficient and
> because each request is single threaded. In addition to this, mod_perl al=
so
> cannot provide websockets which are essential in a modern application.
>
>
>
> On Mon, Dec 21, 2020 at 1:26 AM Vincent Veyron
> wrote:
>
>
> [You forgot to cc the list ]
>
> On Sun, 20 Dec 2020 23:16:03 -0500
> John Dunlap wrote:
>
> > We run 20 customers on a single box and our database has approximately
> 500
> > tables. We run hundreds or thousands of queries per second.
> >
>
> 500 tables is a lot more than what I typically handle. I'm sure it
> complicates things.
>
> But see this post by James Smith in a recent thread :
>
> http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/perl-modperl/202008.mbox/ajax/%3=
Cef383804cf394c53b48258531891d12b%40sanger.ac.uk%3E
> [mail-archives.apache.org]
> ache.org_mod-5Fmbox_perl-2Dmodperl_202008.mbox_ajax_-253Cef383804cf394c53b4=
8258531891d12b-2540sanger.ac.uk-253E&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DD7ByGjS34AllFgecYw0iC6Z=
q7qlm8uclZFI0SqQnqBo&r=3DoH2yp0ge1ecj4oDX0XM7vQ&m=3Dd_ZhFPlvaXw1KbAmeExguXy=
1fSbpEKzIuAPZMOJ9h78&s=3DnK2GCkR9GuTuv3TffZBjRZgIDya7tetj5oHLLDBsn18&e=3D>
>
> Easier to read in this archive :
>
> http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/perl-modperl/202008.mbox/browser
> [mail-archives.apache.org]
> ache.org_mod-5Fmbox_perl-2Dmodperl_202008.mbox_browser&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DD7ByG=
jS34AllFgecYw0iC6Zq7qlm8uclZFI0SqQnqBo&r=3DoH2yp0ge1ecj4oDX0XM7vQ&m=3Dd_ZhF=
PlvaXw1KbAmeExguXy1fSbpEKzIuAPZMOJ9h78&s=3DOm-DkyClcEdOiq5HBizz-ydRhOziZbAP=
-AL_sR0eXAE&e=3D>
>
> I also remember a post by a chinese guy who handled the same order of
> database size, in which he wrote that he had compared several frameworks
> and mod_perl was the fastest; but that was something like 10 years ago, a=
nd
> I can't find it anymore.
>
> So I'm not sure how mod_perl could handle that kind of load and be
> horribly inefficient?
>
> (I forgot to say in my previous post that over 50% of the time used by my
> script is spent on the _one_ query out of 120 that writes a smallish
> session hash to disk)
>
> --
> Bien =C3=A0 vous, Vincent Veyron
>
> https://compta.libremen.com [compta.libremen.com]
> om&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DD7ByGjS34AllFgecYw0iC6Zq7qlm8uclZFI0SqQnqBo&r=3DoH2yp0ge1=
ecj4oDX0XM7vQ&m=3Dd_ZhFPlvaXw1KbAmeExguXy1fSbpEKzIuAPZMOJ9h78&s=3DmT-OlBL98=
gDcEsBMBidxank1GbEXq2zX6zPGOmpwobU&e=3D>
> Logiciel libre de comptabilit=C3=A9 g=C3=A9n=C3=A9rale en partie double
>
>
>
> --
>
> John Dunlap
>
> CTO | Lariat
>
>
>
> *Direct:*
>
> john-at-lariat.co
>
>
> *Customer Service:*
>
> 877.268.6667
>
> support-at-lariat.co
>
> -- The Wellcome Sanger Institute is operated by Genome Research Limited, =
a
> charity registered in England with number 1021457 and a company registere=
d
> in England with number 2742969, whose registered office is 215 Euston Roa=
d,
> London, NW1 2BE.
>
--=20
John Dunlap
*CTO | Lariat *
*Direct:*
*john-at-lariat.co *
*Customer Service:*
877.268.6667
support-at-lariat.co
--0000000000008bcb7d05b70eeb7c
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
We have hundreds of users polling our servers every few se=
conds just waiting for events. In the near future, I'm going to have to=
do a refactor to avoid users polling two different endpoints for different=
kinds of events. The vast majority of the request in our access logs are p=
olling requests and they put significant load on our systems that I would p=
refer to avoid. Additionally, web sockets aren't just for pushing conte=
nt to the browser. If you use them in the opposite direction, they improve =
performance because you can avoid opening/closing a new connection and beca=
use you can avoid the overhead of the HTTP protocol resulting in shorter re=
quest times.
te class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px =
solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
There are not many applications which really b=
enefit from multiple threads in web server environments unless you have ver=
y low load =E2=80=93 as they are only efficient as they can use multiple co=
res, so
you need stupidly speced machines to manage this load properly, and if you=
are using external resources can often be blocking anyway.
Yes mod_perl doesn=E2=80=99t do web-sockets =E2=80=93 but usually that isn=
=E2=80=99t an issue unless you have the need to push when people update con=
tent and you want it immediately available. There are others issues to cons=
ider with web-sockets e.g. port usage to keep the connections
open. If you don=E2=80=99t need that immediate response =E2=80=93 polling =
can achieve the desired effect =E2=80=93 and Apache can even tell the clien=
t how long you need to wait before you send another connection.u> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 mod_perl is horribly inefficient because prefork is =
inefficient and because each request is single threaded. In addition to thi=
s, mod_perl also cannot provide websockets which are essential in a modern =
application. =C2=A0
--
uchet MS",sans-serif;color:rgb(68,68,68)">John Dunlape=3D"font-size:12pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">> ma",sans-serif;color:rgb(153,153,153)">CTO |=C2=A0=3D"font-size:12pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;color:rgb(255,=
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width=3D"100" height=3D"60" border=3D"0">2pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> --=20 The Wellcome Sanger Institute is operated by Genome Research=20 Limited, a charity registered in England with number 1021457 and a=20 company registered in England with number 2742969, whose registered=20 office is 215 Euston Road, London, NW1 2BE.=20
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_______________________________________________
Hangout mailing list
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We have hundreds of users polling our servers every few seconds just
waiting for events. In the near future, I'm going to have to do a refactor
to avoid users polling two different endpoints for different kinds of
events. The vast majority of the request in our access logs are polling
requests and they put significant load on our systems that I would prefer
to avoid. Additionally, web sockets aren't just for pushing content to the
browser. If you use them in the opposite direction, they improve
performance because you can avoid opening/closing a new connection and
because you can avoid the overhead of the HTTP protocol resulting in
shorter request times.
On Tue, Dec 22, 2020 at 8:32 AM James Smith wrote:
> There are not many applications which really benefit from multiple thread=
s
> in web server environments unless you have very low load =E2=80=93 as the=
y are only
> efficient as they can use multiple cores, so you need stupidly speced
> machines to manage this load properly, and if you are using external
> resources can often be blocking anyway.
>
> Yes mod_perl doesn=E2=80=99t do web-sockets =E2=80=93 but usually that is=
n=E2=80=99t an issue
> unless you have the need to push when people update content and you want =
it
> immediately available. There are others issues to consider with web-socke=
ts
> e.g. port usage to keep the connections open. If you don=E2=80=99t need t=
hat
> immediate response =E2=80=93 polling can achieve the desired effect =E2=
=80=93 and Apache
> can even tell the client how long you need to wait before you send anothe=
r
> connection.
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* John Dunlap
> *Sent:* 22 December 2020 13:35
> *To:* Vincent Veyron
> *Cc:* mod_perl list
> *Subject:* Re: suggestions for perl as web development language [EXT]
>
>
>
> mod_perl is horribly inefficient because prefork is inefficient and
> because each request is single threaded. In addition to this, mod_perl al=
so
> cannot provide websockets which are essential in a modern application.
>
>
>
> On Mon, Dec 21, 2020 at 1:26 AM Vincent Veyron
> wrote:
>
>
> [You forgot to cc the list ]
>
> On Sun, 20 Dec 2020 23:16:03 -0500
> John Dunlap wrote:
>
> > We run 20 customers on a single box and our database has approximately
> 500
> > tables. We run hundreds or thousands of queries per second.
> >
>
> 500 tables is a lot more than what I typically handle. I'm sure it
> complicates things.
>
> But see this post by James Smith in a recent thread :
>
> http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/perl-modperl/202008.mbox/ajax/%3=
Cef383804cf394c53b48258531891d12b%40sanger.ac.uk%3E
> [mail-archives.apache.org]
> ache.org_mod-5Fmbox_perl-2Dmodperl_202008.mbox_ajax_-253Cef383804cf394c53b4=
8258531891d12b-2540sanger.ac.uk-253E&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DD7ByGjS34AllFgecYw0iC6Z=
q7qlm8uclZFI0SqQnqBo&r=3DoH2yp0ge1ecj4oDX0XM7vQ&m=3Dd_ZhFPlvaXw1KbAmeExguXy=
1fSbpEKzIuAPZMOJ9h78&s=3DnK2GCkR9GuTuv3TffZBjRZgIDya7tetj5oHLLDBsn18&e=3D>
>
> Easier to read in this archive :
>
> http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/perl-modperl/202008.mbox/browser
> [mail-archives.apache.org]
> ache.org_mod-5Fmbox_perl-2Dmodperl_202008.mbox_browser&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DD7ByG=
jS34AllFgecYw0iC6Zq7qlm8uclZFI0SqQnqBo&r=3DoH2yp0ge1ecj4oDX0XM7vQ&m=3Dd_ZhF=
PlvaXw1KbAmeExguXy1fSbpEKzIuAPZMOJ9h78&s=3DOm-DkyClcEdOiq5HBizz-ydRhOziZbAP=
-AL_sR0eXAE&e=3D>
>
> I also remember a post by a chinese guy who handled the same order of
> database size, in which he wrote that he had compared several frameworks
> and mod_perl was the fastest; but that was something like 10 years ago, a=
nd
> I can't find it anymore.
>
> So I'm not sure how mod_perl could handle that kind of load and be
> horribly inefficient?
>
> (I forgot to say in my previous post that over 50% of the time used by my
> script is spent on the _one_ query out of 120 that writes a smallish
> session hash to disk)
>
> --
> Bien =C3=A0 vous, Vincent Veyron
>
> https://compta.libremen.com [compta.libremen.com]
> om&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DD7ByGjS34AllFgecYw0iC6Zq7qlm8uclZFI0SqQnqBo&r=3DoH2yp0ge1=
ecj4oDX0XM7vQ&m=3Dd_ZhFPlvaXw1KbAmeExguXy1fSbpEKzIuAPZMOJ9h78&s=3DmT-OlBL98=
gDcEsBMBidxank1GbEXq2zX6zPGOmpwobU&e=3D>
> Logiciel libre de comptabilit=C3=A9 g=C3=A9n=C3=A9rale en partie double
>
>
>
> --
>
> John Dunlap
>
> CTO | Lariat
>
>
>
> *Direct:*
>
> john-at-lariat.co
>
>
> *Customer Service:*
>
> 877.268.6667
>
> support-at-lariat.co
>
> -- The Wellcome Sanger Institute is operated by Genome Research Limited, =
a
> charity registered in England with number 1021457 and a company registere=
d
> in England with number 2742969, whose registered office is 215 Euston Roa=
d,
> London, NW1 2BE.
>
--=20
John Dunlap
*CTO | Lariat *
*Direct:*
*john-at-lariat.co *
*Customer Service:*
877.268.6667
support-at-lariat.co
--0000000000008bcb7d05b70eeb7c
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
We have hundreds of users polling our servers every few se=
conds just waiting for events. In the near future, I'm going to have to=
do a refactor to avoid users polling two different endpoints for different=
kinds of events. The vast majority of the request in our access logs are p=
olling requests and they put significant load on our systems that I would p=
refer to avoid. Additionally, web sockets aren't just for pushing conte=
nt to the browser. If you use them in the opposite direction, they improve =
performance because you can avoid opening/closing a new connection and beca=
use you can avoid the overhead of the HTTP protocol resulting in shorter re=
quest times.
te class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px =
solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
There are not many applications which really b=
enefit from multiple threads in web server environments unless you have ver=
y low load =E2=80=93 as they are only efficient as they can use multiple co=
res, so
you need stupidly speced machines to manage this load properly, and if you=
are using external resources can often be blocking anyway.
Yes mod_perl doesn=E2=80=99t do web-sockets =E2=80=93 but usually that isn=
=E2=80=99t an issue unless you have the need to push when people update con=
tent and you want it immediately available. There are others issues to cons=
ider with web-sockets e.g. port usage to keep the connections
open. If you don=E2=80=99t need that immediate response =E2=80=93 polling =
can achieve the desired effect =E2=80=93 and Apache can even tell the clien=
t how long you need to wait before you send another connection.u> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 mod_perl is horribly inefficient because prefork is =
inefficient and because each request is single threaded. In addition to thi=
s, mod_perl also cannot provide websockets which are essential in a modern =
application. =C2=A0
--
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153,0)">Lariat",sans-serif;color:rgb(153,153,153)">=C2=A0size:12pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">p>
ahoma",sans-serif;color:rgb(153,153,153)">Direct:e=3D"font-size:12pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">> ma",sans-serif;color:rgb(153,153,153)">
Customer Service:uot;Arial",sans-serif"> l",sans-serif;color:rgb(153,153,153)">877.268.6667=3D"font-size:12pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">=
l",sans-serif">![]() gmail-m_-9096722254939339632Picture_x0020_1" src=3D"cid:1768af258304cff311"=
width=3D"100" height=3D"60" border=3D"0">2pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> --=20 The Wellcome Sanger Institute is operated by Genome Research=20 Limited, a charity registered in England with number 1021457 and a=20 company registered in England with number 2742969, whose registered=20 office is 215 Euston Road, London, NW1 2BE.=20
--
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ont-size:small;font-family:arial">s",sans-serif">a,sans-serif;font-style:normal">CTO |=C2=A0y:tahoma,sans-serif;font-style:normal">Lariat>;font-style:normal">=C2=A0
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