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DATE 2008-04-01

HANGOUT

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MESSAGE
DATE 2008-04-13
FROM Ruben Safir
SUBJECT Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] fun read: [rick@linuxmafia.com: Re: [conspire] Parts is Parts]
----- Forwarded message from Rick Moen -----

Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2008 16:38:30 -0700
From: Rick Moen
To: conspire-at-linuxmafia.com
In-Reply-To: <20080413171253.GB4788-at-zgp.org>
X-Mas: Bah humbug.
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Subject: Re: [conspire] Parts is Parts
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Quoting Don Marti (dmarti-at-zgp.org):

Me, I'd rather have a nice little Linux laptop in front of me as a
relatively smart terminal, and have as much as is feasible of both my
data and my substantive computing occur on my own server(s).

Christian's situation is a rather freaky and (nearly) unique one, where
he needs -- or, it is said that he needs -- to have literally all of his
16 terabytes of video data reside locally on a Linux workstation in front of
him. (The master copy of the raw video data, his 380 hours of video
footage, is on some sort of tape.) Presumably, he has or will have a
baker's dozen or so of relatively cheap, marginally reliable,
terabyte-plus SATA hard drives that will hold all of his in-process work
material -- and wants all of that storage locally mounted on a single
machine, with no drive redundancy in order to maximise performance and
reduce hardware cost. (That's a calculated risk, assuming the chance of
losing editing work when drives fail, to save money on extra drives for
redundant storage.)

It's a bit difficult putting myself in his shoes, for that project,
because first of all I'm not a video guy. Second, you'll note the
appearance of words like "presumably" and "it is said", meaning that I'm
having to speculate as to his exact situation because the data provided
so far have been uselessly vague.

However, if I _were_ in his position, I think first of all I'd do some
hard thinking about ways to eliminate the necessity to have all of that
ridiculously large data set reside on the local workstation at once.
Even the professional CGI rendering houses for Hollywood don't end up
needing to do that: They have a limited number of reasonably powerful
workstations in front of them, and a large number of headless, racked
Linux servers doing most of the substantive work.

Which gets me back to my point about mice and elephants: A _large_
amount of the more severely screwed-up IT infrastructure I've seen over
the past twenty years in business has resulted directly from people
insisting on thinking like DOS/Windows users, when in fact they're being
paid to do intelligent systems design. But people who cut their teeth
on Word/Excel point-and-drool work with Packard-Bells tend to see _any_
subsequent computing problem as merely requiring a sufficiently
scaled-up Packard-Bell.

Thus my point.

One of my consulting clients, for a long time, was a firm that processed
most of the continent's mortgage data from banks and other financial
institutions. I took over as network consultant from a FreeBSD guy
who'd been trying for years, fruitlessly, to end their model of pulling
down mammoth data sets from file servers onto very large NT
workstations, where all of it was crunched locally, and then the results
mass-copied back to the file servers. Even with gigabit everything,
their LAN infrastructure was near collapse from the traffic load, almost
all the time -- and it was a hideously inappropriate and inefficient way
to move data around -- but that was all the resident crew of MFC/C++
programmers knew about, and they were in a position to override any
advice from mere LAN/server consultants, so that's what they did.

Now, in contrast, it may be that Christian's situation is one of the
very few where true client/server LAN software architecture just cannot
work, and he really does need to have 100% of a 16+ terabyte dataset
reside locally to his console machine. (At least he isn't proposing to
frequently copy it back and forth across a busy corporate LAN.)
However, it _doesn't_ follow that it's either necessary or desirable to
mount a dozen or so terabyte-plus SATA drives in a single workstation
machine (like a good little Packard-Bell user).

Consider the risks of so doing:

o It puts all the drives on the same power bus, along with every other
power-using components in the box. This means power irregularities
originating from _any_ of the drives, or the motherboard, or the PSU
itself, can destroy any or all of the attached devices in about two
seconds.
o It puts all the drives in the same cooling environment in the same
enclosure. Again, a device (drive or fan) seizing up and going hot
is in a position to destroy the whole array.

And, campers, what _is_ it that destroys components long before their
expected useful lives, more than anything else? Number one is power
irregularities on the PSU side, from either a stressed/failing/junky PSU
or some attached component. (I've seen such events take out some or all
attached hard drives, more often than I can count.) Second is component
stress from heat buildup.

Now, I've never had to design a workstation machine with that much local
storage, and I'm probably not likely to be very good at it without some
professional-level research and planning -- which nobody's paying me to
do, at the moment. However, I'd sure try hard to get the drives in a
_separate_ box (or two) from the workstation motherboard, preferably
one or more enclosure designed specifically for drive arrays, maybe with
redundant PSUs, and certainly with cooling set up specifically for such
a heavy-duty system.

And I'd look hard at a Coraid ATA over ethernet (AoE) system (especially
now that the drivers have been in the mainline kernel since 2.6.11).

Last, I'd carefully follow _your_ advice, Don, and make sure that
there's good built-in monitoring and control, to spot and act on heat
problems and find/eliminate power-wasting processes. (And I'd make
_damn_ sure I had components with good Linux ACPI support.)

But, of course, in this case, Christian's probably already in the middle
of a some already decided-on architecture or other, so this discussion
is pretty much pointless except to make general, theoretical points,
anyway.



_______________________________________________
conspire mailing list
conspire-at-linuxmafia.com
http://linuxmafia.com/mailman/listinfo/conspire

----- End forwarded message -----

--
http://www.mrbrklyn.com - Interesting Stuff
http://www.nylxs.com - Leadership Development in Free Software

So many immigrant groups have swept through our town that Brooklyn, like Atlantis, reaches mythological proportions in the mind of the world - RI Safir 1998

http://fairuse.nylxs.com DRM is THEFT - We are the STAKEHOLDERS - RI Safir 2002

"Yeah - I write Free Software...so SUE ME"

"The tremendous problem we face is that we are becoming sharecroppers to our own cultural heritage -- we need the ability to participate in our own society."

"> I'm an engineer. I choose the best tool for the job, politics be damned.<
You must be a stupid engineer then, because politcs and technology have been attached at the hip since the 1st dynasty in Ancient Egypt. I guess you missed that one."

© Copyright for the Digital Millennium

  1. 2008-04-01 From: "Paul Robert Marino" <prmarino1-at-gmail.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] This is just wrong
  2. 2008-04-01 From: "Michael L. Richardson" <mlr52-at-michaellrichardson.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] This is just wrong
  3. 2008-04-01 ronny abraham <ronny.coder-at-gmail.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] outrageous behavior in the market
  4. 2008-04-01 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Travel Taxes
  5. 2008-04-02 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] [ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com: Re: [nylug-talk] need to refer client for Red Hat help / OLPH project]
  6. 2008-04-03 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] [dplist-at-danielpipes.org: #847: Pipes asks, "Will Europe Resist Islamization?" in Jer. Post]
  7. 2008-04-04 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Congestion Tax Wars
  8. 2008-04-04 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Brooklyn Congestion Price Fixing
  9. 2008-04-04 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Congestion Tax Wars II
  10. 2008-04-04 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Congestion Tax Price Fixing Web Site
  11. 2008-04-04 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Fighting back and keeping our unity
  12. 2008-04-05 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] NYLXS Spring Agenda - Meeting Result 3-4-08: Comments Requested]
  13. 2008-04-05 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Transit Taxes
  14. 2008-04-05 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Free The Subways, Because the Subways want to be FREE!
  15. 2008-04-05 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] This Pork Aint Kosher
  16. 2008-04-05 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Tax the Internet
  17. 2008-04-05 From: "Michael L. Richardson" <mlr52-at-mycouponmagic.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Tax the Internet
  18. 2008-04-06 From: "Ronny Abraham" <ronny.coder-at-gmail.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Tax the Internet
  19. 2008-04-07 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Re: hello
  20. 2008-04-07 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Congestion Travel Tax Destroyed Businesses in London
  21. 2008-04-07 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] [nyc-at-workatjelly.com: Jelly in Manhattan this Friday, 4/11]
  22. 2008-04-07 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Re: hello
  23. 2008-04-07 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Trust the MTA. The MTA is your friend
  24. 2008-04-08 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] [nyc-at-workatjelly.com: (Correction) Jelly in Manhattan this Friday, 4/11]
  25. 2008-04-08 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] [johnmark-at-johnmark.org: [BALUG-Talk] BytesFree.org Call for Participation]
  26. 2008-04-09 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Passover
  27. 2008-04-11 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Re: hello
  28. 2008-04-11 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] [ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com: Re: hello]
  29. 2008-04-11 ronny abraham <ronny.coder-at-gmail.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Re: hello
  30. 2008-04-11 From: "Michael L. Richardson" <mlr52-at-michaellrichardson.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] [ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com: Re: hello]
  31. 2008-04-11 Mark Simko <msimko-at-optonline.net> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Re: hello
  32. 2008-04-11 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Re: hello
  33. 2008-04-11 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Summer Internship Programs
  34. 2008-04-11 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Summer Internship Programs
  35. 2008-04-11 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Music Video Conversion
  36. 2008-04-11 From: "Michael L. Richardson" <mlr52-at-michaellrichardson.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Music Video Conversion
  37. 2008-04-11 Mark Simko <msimko-at-optonline.net> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Re: hello
  38. 2008-04-12 From: "armando fonseca" <afonsec2-at-gmail.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Summer Internship Programs
  39. 2008-04-12 From: "Michael L. Richardson" <mlr52-at-michaellrichardson.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Re: hello
  40. 2008-04-12 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] [info-at-nomadsland.com: [501 Tech Club NY] Searching for Drupal Developer for Video Delivery Website]
  41. 2008-04-12 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] NNTP Usenet access
  42. 2008-04-12 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Re: hello
  43. 2008-04-12 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Re: hello
  44. 2008-04-12 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Re: hello
  45. 2008-04-12 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com>
  46. 2008-04-12 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Video Location
  47. 2008-04-12 From: "Michael L. Richardson" <mlr52-at-michaellrichardson.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Re:
  48. 2008-04-12 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Re:
  49. 2008-04-12 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Re:
  50. 2008-04-12 From: "Michael L. Richardson" <mlr52-at-michaellrichardson.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Re:
  51. 2008-04-12 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Re:
  52. 2008-04-12 From: "Michael L. Richardson" <mlr52-at-michaellrichardson.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Re:
  53. 2008-04-12 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Re:
  54. 2008-04-12 From: "Michael L. Richardson" <mlr52-at-michaellrichardson.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Re:
  55. 2008-04-13 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Re:
  56. 2008-04-13 From: "Michael L. Richardson" <mlr52-at-mycouponmagic.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Re:
  57. 2008-04-13 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Re:
  58. 2008-04-13 From: "Michael L. Richardson.com" <mlr52-at-michaellrichardson.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Re:
  59. 2008-04-13 From: "Victoria Berger" <victoria-at-innovision-systems.com> RE: SPAM-LOW: Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Re:
  60. 2008-04-13 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Re:
  61. 2008-04-13 From: "Victoria Berger" <victoria-at-innovision-systems.com> FW: SPAM-LOW: Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Re:
  62. 2008-04-13 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] fun read: [rick-at-linuxmafia.com: Re: [conspire] Parts is Parts]
  63. 2008-04-13 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] The war on DVD's, Bloombergs new crusade..
  64. 2008-04-14 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] ASUS PCEEE SDK
  65. 2008-04-14 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Regionalism and Your Representitives
  66. 2008-04-14 Mark Simko <msimko-at-optonline.net> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] ASUS PCEEE SDK
  67. 2008-04-14 From: "Michael L. Richardson.com" <mlr52-at-michaellrichardson.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] ASUS PCEEE SDK
  68. 2008-04-14 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] [ward-at-pong.be: [JOB] - FSF seeks senior GNU/Linux Systems administrator and programmer]
  69. 2008-04-15 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] [nyc-at-workatjelly.com: Jelly in Brooklyn this Friday, 4/18]
  70. 2008-04-16 From: "Michael L. Richardson.com" <mlr52-at-michaellrichardson.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] debian on eeepc
  71. 2008-04-17 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Passover
  72. 2008-04-18 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] [legcalendar-at-council.nyc.ny.us: Council Calendar - Week of 04.21.08]
  73. 2008-04-19 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Mission Statement: Spring Reminder
  74. 2008-04-21 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] super copyright: delayed justice?
  75. 2008-04-22 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] [agravgaard-at-FLYPMEDIA.COM: Re: Interview Request: Flyp Media on Linux and Open Source]
  76. 2008-04-23 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] [agravgaard-at-FLYPMEDIA.COM: Re: Interview Request: Flyp Media on Linux and Open Source]
  77. 2008-04-23 From: "Joshua Zeidner" <jjzeidner-at-gmail.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] [agravgaard-at-FLYPMEDIA.COM: Re: Interview Request: Flyp Media on Linux and Open Source]
  78. 2008-04-23 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] DRM is Theft ~~~still
  79. 2008-04-23 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] How to really mess up something good
  80. 2008-04-23 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Food Rationing
  81. 2008-04-23 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] hacking GNU style
  82. 2008-04-23 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] How to really mess up something good Part II
  83. 2008-04-24 From: "Michael L. Richardson.com" <mlr52-at-michaellrichardson.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] How to really mess up something good
  84. 2008-04-24 Paul Robert Marino <prmarino1-at-gmail.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] How to really mess up something good
  85. 2008-04-24 Michael L Richardson <mlr52-at-michaellrichardson.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] How to really mess up something good
  86. 2008-04-24 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] How to really mess up something good
  87. 2008-04-25 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Next NYLXS Meetings
  88. 2008-04-25 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Next NYLXS Meetings
  89. 2008-04-25 From: "Michael L. Richardson.com" <mlr52-at-michaellrichardson.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Next NYLXS Meetings
  90. 2008-04-26 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] NYLXS Press Release on the OLPC Project
  91. 2008-04-26 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] NYLXS Press Release on the OLPC Project
  92. 2008-04-26 Kevin Mark <kevin.mark-at-verizon.net> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] NYLXS Press Release on the OLPC Project
  93. 2008-04-27 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Re: [conspire] NYLXS Press Release on the OLPC Project
  94. 2008-04-27 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Re: [conspire] NYLXS Press Release on the OLPC Project
  95. 2008-04-28 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Attack on the NYLXS Server
  96. 2008-04-28 Ron Guerin <ron-at-vnetworx.net> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Re: [nylug-talk] Attack on the NYLXS Server
  97. 2008-04-28 Paul Robert Marino <prmarino1-at-gmail.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Re: [nylug-talk] Attack on the NYLXS Server
  98. 2008-04-28 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] EEE with Touch Screen Planned
  99. 2008-04-28 Paul Robert Marino <prmarino1-at-gmail.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Re: [nylug-talk] Attack on the NYLXS Server
  100. 2008-04-28 From: "Ron Guerin" <ron-at-vnetworx.net> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Re: [nylug-talk] Attack on the NYLXS Server
  101. 2008-04-30 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] More Human Memory from HP

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