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DATE 2010-01-01

HANGOUT

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Key: archive Value: 2010-01-01

Key: id Value: 539570

MESSAGE
DATE 2010-01-03
FROM Ruben Safir
SUBJECT Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] MySQL issues
From owner-hangout-outgoing-at-mrbrklyn.com Sun Jan 3 20:36:10 2010
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From: Ruben Safir
To: hangout-at-mrbrklyn.com
Subject: Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] MySQL issues
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References: <20100101190841.GC559-at-panix.com> <20100101215450.GA21859-at-panix.com> <20100101215521.GA5063-at-panix.com> <4B40171A.8080300-at-gmail.com>
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On Sat, Jan 02, 2010 at 11:03:38PM -0500, Paul Robert Marino wrote:
> well the truth is there is no danger of a monopoly because Oracle is
> dieing in the data warehouse market and has been dead in the web market
> for years.


http://www.crn.com/software/220000766;jsessionid=WOFRZXO4N2RGDQE1GHPCKH4ATMY32JVN

This doesn't sound like dieing and dead to me FWIW.

> Oracle cant afford to drop MySQL because its their chance to
> get back into the web market. In the data warehouse market databases
> like Green Plumb and Netezza both of which are base on the BSD licensed
> PostgreSQL code base have been dominating the market along with other
> PostgreSQL variants. the nice thing is that these companies have been
> contributing back to the PostgreSQL code base hence the rapid
> development of new versions over the last 7 years the latest one being
> version 8.4.2 released on 2009-12-14.

http://www.oracle.com/database/number-one-database.html
http://www.informationweek.com/news/software/database_apps/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=207402230

This doesn't sound like Oracle is losing much in market share, although
I will take a look at these other products, just for fun. I happen to
hate Postges. IMO, it is a PIA to use, and so is Oracle, for that
matter. The major thing that attects me to MYSQL is that is
unbelievably and in a common sense way, straight forward to understand,
set up and use. And Monty makes that happen by being always available
all the time and by making what I believe is correct design decisions.



> the funny thing is that these
> PostgreSQL variants cost more then the oracles closest to equivalent
> product but they are capable of performance rates that blow all of their
> competition out of the water. Oh incidentally the other database
> mantioned in the article EnterpriseDB is also a PostgreSQL variant.
> As far as Oracle's the argument to change the license that's nothing
> surprising. Oracle was of the opinion that they made GNU/Linux a viable
> platform when they ported all of their database products (Oracle,
> Sybase, and Informex) over and that the GPL community owed them; however
> the GPL community has always felt that Oracle has proffited off of GPL
> software but never given any thing back to it.


Two things, the idea of a conortium around a database product isn't new.
Sybase was developed in just such a fashion decades ago...and where is
Sybase these days. The Postgres database is developed under the BSD
license, and that has always been a problem, IMO, and that is exactly
what Monty currently wants with MYSQL.

As for Oracle, both Oracle and Sun have made a big error which as time
goes forward, hurts them measurably, which is that they haven't fully
commited to Free Software. There one foot in and one foot out
methodology has cost them huges sales and product development
possibilities. There dependencies on license sales is a long term dead
end for them, as it is of the record companies. As it is, in both
companies, support is the driving force of their profitability.


> Oracle has also felt that
> that the development of MySQL pushed them out of the web market and that
> the GPL community was biting the hand that fed them in the early days.
> further more there has been a lot of speculation that Oracle will do one
> of their old tricks, namely that after they change the license they will
> fork a proprietary version branded with the oracle name and let the free
> speech portion of the code die.
>
> On a side note the reason why Oracle lost the web market has nothing to
> do with price.

Uh... I disagree. Cost was an enourmous factor, as it was with SCO.
Who the hell was going to shell out a 100 grand to develope slashdot?

> The primary reason is that Oracle does not support the
> LIMIT or OFFSET SQL directives and use subqueries in their place which
> makes it highly inefficient for the type of dynamic partial reports that
> websites generate constantly (any time a result is split across multiple
> pages such as an online retailer product listing that show 25 per page).a

I agree that that is also a big issue...and not the only PIA thing
about Oracle.

>
>
> On 1/2/2010 8:37 PM, Paul Charles Leddy wrote:
>> Ya, I am extremely divided.
>>
>> This is a historic event in my mind. Especially with the split between
>> Monty/RMS vs Moglen/Groklaw.
>>
>> Grand history. Take your time. You don't have to choose sides. None of
>> us may know enough. Ever.
>>
>> And. I think it is a learning experience for me to see that a lot
>> comes down to where the money is, more than I thought. At least, that
>> is the counter claim on both parts.
>>
>> I assume money is the root of all evil. That's besides the point, but
>> might be a good stand to take in the end.
>>
>> One big question for me is about monopoly. One of the means of
>> maintaining the social system we have -- I am reading
>> "Turbo-Capitalism by Luttwak, btw, I don't make these things up mysqlf
>> -- is that no one should have an outright monopoly. That's agreed. We
>> need to at least keep up appearances. So, remind me, what was the
>> answer to the fact that Oracle will have a monopoly if they suck in
>> MySQL?
>>
>> I am also skeptical -- if you are curious to know -- that MySQL's GPL
>> status can't save in via forking. It would be historic, right? Correct
>> that no other huge project has forked and survived?
>>
>> Anyways, I think it would take a LOT of work, but Monty could do it,
>> if he wanted, and people would go w/ him. What am I missing here? The
>> large corporate perspective? Definitely. Enlighten me. Crazy?
>>
>> Can anyone clarify the dual-license deal in a paragraph w/ less than
>> 10 sentences? I am still unsure on that measure.
>>
>

  1. 2010-01-01 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Re: [monty-at-helpmysql.org: Help save MySQL; Sign the petition]
  2. 2010-01-01 Ron Guerin <ron-at-vnetworx.net> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Re: [monty-at-helpmysql.org: Help save MySQL;
  3. 2010-01-01 Ron Guerin <ron-at-vnetworx.net> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Re: [monty-at-helpmysql.org: Help save MySQL;
  4. 2010-01-01 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Re: [monty-at-helpmysql.org: Help save MySQL;
  5. 2010-01-01 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] grep
  6. 2010-01-01 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] MySQL issues
  7. 2010-01-01 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] mysql issues
  8. 2010-01-01 Paul Charles Leddy <pcleddy-at-gmail.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] MySQL issues
  9. 2010-01-01 Ron Guerin <ron-at-vnetworx.net> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] mysql issues
  10. 2010-01-01 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] MySQL issues
  11. 2010-01-01 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] MySQL issues
  12. 2010-01-01 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] MySQL issues
  13. 2010-01-02 Paul Charles Leddy <pcleddy-at-gmail.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] MySQL issues
  14. 2010-01-02 Paul Robert Marino <prmarino1-at-gmail.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] MySQL issues
  15. 2010-01-02 Ron Guerin <ron-at-vnetworx.net> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] MySQL issues
  16. 2010-01-03 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [rms-at-gnu.org: Re: [mrbrklyn-at-panix.com: Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] MySQL
  17. 2010-01-03 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Re: [mrbrklyn-at-panix.com: Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] MySQL issues]
  18. 2010-01-03 Paul Charles Leddy <pcleddy-at-gmail.com> Re: [rms-at-gnu.org: Re: [mrbrklyn-at-panix.com: Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT]
  19. 2010-01-03 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] MySQL issues
  20. 2010-01-03 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] MySQL issues
  21. 2010-01-03 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] MySQL issues
  22. 2010-01-04 Paul Charles Leddy <pcleddy-at-gmail.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] MySQL issues
  23. 2010-01-04 Paul Charles Leddy <pcleddy-at-gmail.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] MySQL issues
  24. 2010-01-04 Paul Robert Marino <prmarino1-at-gmail.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] MySQL issues
  25. 2010-01-04 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] MySQL issues
  26. 2010-01-04 swd <sderrick-at-optonline.net> RE: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] MySQL issues
  27. 2010-01-04 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] MySQL issues
  28. 2010-01-04 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Fwd: Re: [mrbrklyn-at-panix.com: Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] MySQL issues]
  29. 2010-01-04 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] ACTA
  30. 2010-01-04 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] GNU Malware in Gnome Project..
  31. 2010-01-05 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] NYLXS Meeting
  32. 2010-01-10 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] NYLXS Meeting
  33. 2010-01-10 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Important video
  34. 2010-01-10 From: "Michael L. Richardson" <mlr52-at-michaellrichardson.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] NYLXS Meeting
  35. 2010-01-10 Elfen Magix <elfen_magix-at-yahoo.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] NYLXS Meeting
  36. 2010-01-10 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] NYLXS Meeting
  37. 2010-01-10 Kevin Mark <kevin.mark-at-verizon.net> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] NYLXS Meeting
  38. 2010-01-10 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] NYLXS Meeting
  39. 2010-01-10 From: "mlr52-at-michaellrichardson.com" <mlr52-at-michaellrichardson.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] NYLXS Meeting
  40. 2010-01-11 einker <eminker-at-gmail.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] NYLXS Meeting
  41. 2010-01-11 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] NYLXS Meeting
  42. 2010-01-13 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] NYLXS Meeting
  43. 2010-01-13 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] [ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com: [elephants77-at-verizon.net: Signing up for
  44. 2010-01-13 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] NYLXS Meeting
  45. 2010-01-13 Paul Robert Marino <prmarino1-at-gmail.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] NYLXS Meeting
  46. 2010-01-14 swd <sderrick-at-optonline.net> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Linux Foundation starts job board
  47. 2010-01-14 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] NYLXS Meeting
  48. 2010-01-14 From: "Beau Gould" <bg-at-capitalmarketsp.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] [JOB] C++ Engineer, New York City | 80-100k
  49. 2010-01-14 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] NYLXS Events Schedule - this coming Month
  50. 2010-01-14 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] NYLXS Schedule Project
  51. 2010-01-14 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] SuSE Studio Workshop
  52. 2010-01-15 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] China and Microsoft - together again
  53. 2010-01-17 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] HURD Installation
  54. 2010-01-19 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Meeting on Wednesday
  55. 2010-01-19 einker <eminker-at-gmail.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Meeting on Wednesday
  56. 2010-01-19 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Meeting on Wednesday
  57. 2010-01-19 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Good Year for GNU Business
  58. 2010-01-20 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Meeting on Wednesday
  59. 2010-01-23 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Young Programmers and their hero worship
  60. 2010-01-23 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Human Interface Design
  61. 2010-01-23 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Kindle the Copyright Warsi
  62. 2010-01-23 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] RIAA losing another one on the copyright laws
  63. 2010-01-23 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] MS can't secure OS even after new security update on IE...
  64. 2010-01-23 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Twitter turns off MS dependent features and flash features because
  65. 2010-01-23 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Shakespear is a bi-guy according to wikipedia
  66. 2010-01-23 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Speaking of Sheakespear..
  67. 2010-01-23 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Killer Asteroids...
  68. 2010-01-23 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Neocons RETURN
  69. 2010-01-23 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Tech Nite - ON FOR TOMORROW
  70. 2010-01-23 Paul Charles Leddy <pcleddy-at-gmail.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Neocons RETURN
  71. 2010-01-23 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Neocons RETURN
  72. 2010-01-24 Paul Charles Leddy <pcleddy-at-gmail.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Neocons RETURN
  73. 2010-01-24 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Neocons RETURN
  74. 2010-01-24 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Jesus Linux Launch Party Tonight
  75. 2010-01-24 swd <sderrick-at-optonline.net> RE: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Jesus Linux Launch Party Tonight
  76. 2010-01-24 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Jesus Linux Launch Party Tonight
  77. 2010-01-24 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Jesus Linux Launch Party Tonight
  78. 2010-01-24 swd <sderrick-at-optonline.net> RE: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Jesus Linux Launch Party Tonight
  79. 2010-01-24 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Now would be a good time
  80. 2010-01-24 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Next technite
  81. 2010-01-24 swd <sderrick-at-optonline.net> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] S.F. to consider open source software
  82. 2010-01-24 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Jelly in Brooklyn at Change You Want to See! Friday 1/29
  83. 2010-01-25 Ron Guerin <ron-at-vnetworx.net> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] S.F. to consider open source software
  84. 2010-01-25 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] S.F. to consider open source software
  85. 2010-01-25 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Next Meeting Date?
  86. 2010-01-26 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Facebook really really does suck]
  87. 2010-01-26 Paul Charles Leddy <pcleddy-at-gmail.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Neocons RETURN
  88. 2010-01-26 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Neocons RETURN
  89. 2010-01-26 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Copyright Wars Continue
  90. 2010-01-26 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Fwd: Fwd: [security-announce] SUSE Security Announcement: bind (SUSE-SA:2009:059)
  91. 2010-01-27 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] NYLUG Tonight
  92. 2010-01-27 Paul Charles Leddy <pcleddy-at-gmail.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Neocons RETURN
  93. 2010-01-27 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Neocons RETURN
  94. 2010-01-27 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] SourceForge now blocks Iran, North Korea, Syria, Sundan, Cuba
  95. 2010-01-28 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] This just has to be seen to understood
  96. 2010-01-28 Paul Charles Leddy <pcleddy-at-gmail.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Neocons RETURN
  97. 2010-01-30 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Fwd: Re: [nylug-talk] C++ On Line Workshop
  98. 2010-01-30 Ron Guerin <ron-at-vnetworx.net> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] (live streaming) Free Software Round Table tonight at 10 PM
  99. 2010-01-30 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] (live streaming) Free Software Round Table
  100. 2010-01-31 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] C++ On Line Workshop
  101. 2010-01-31 Ron Guerin <ron-at-vnetworx.net> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] (live streaming) Free Software Round Table
  102. 2010-01-31 Ron Guerin <ron-at-vnetworx.net> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] The new mail server
  103. 2010-01-31 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] The new mail server
  104. 2010-01-31 Paul Robert Marino <prmarino1-at-gmail.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] The new mail server
  105. 2010-01-31 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Tech Nite Cancelled
  106. 2010-01-31 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Tech Nite Cancelled
  107. 2010-01-31 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Tech Nite Cancelled
  108. 2010-01-31 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Tech Nite Cancelled

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