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DATE 2021-01-01

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MESSAGE
DATE 2021-01-21
FROM John Calcote
SUBJECT Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] Future plans for Autotools
From hangout-bounces-at-nylxs.com Thu Jan 21 16:47:20 2021
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In-Reply-To:
From: John Calcote
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 2021 11:30:37 -0700
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To: Zack Weinberg
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Subject: Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] Future plans for Autotools
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Zack,

On Thu, Jan 21, 2021 at 9:12 AM Zack Weinberg wrote:

> On Wed, Jan 20, 2021 at 5:15 PM Zack Weinberg wrote:
> > Now we've all had a while to recover from the long-awaited Autoconf
> > 2.70 release, I'd like to start a conversation about where the
> > Autotools in general might be going in the future.
>
> > Now we've all had a while to recover from the long-awaited Autoconf
> > 2.70 release, I'd like to start a conversation about where the
> > Autotools in general might be going in the future.
>
> Thanks for all the great thoughtful responses that came in overnight!
> I see many people expressing similar sentiments, so rather than
> respond to each of you individually I'm going to summarize and reply
> to each strand in this one message.
>
>
I like the way you think. But, as your response so clearly indicates,
there's actually very little we can change in a radical way:

1. We shouldn't change the underlying language(s) and tools because one of
the key strengths of the Autotools is (their products') ability to run
everywhere without off-box dependencies. In my humble opinion, nothing the
GNU project has ever done comes close to the value they created by
designing the Autotools to work as seamlessly (for the end-user) as they
do. Download a tarball, unpack, ./configure && make. How much simpler could
it be? No additional tools to install - everything required is already
there - for the end user. Of course, developers may need to install a few
additional tools to build these tarballs from the base source repository,
but developers are not end-users and those are the "customers" GNU was
trying to appease. If you build from source repositories, you're
effectively a developer, not an end-user - not always the case, but 98% of
the time this is true.

Additionally, making such changes would require long man-hours of unpaid
effort - something the world is not willing to give. Gone are the days of
university grad students who know enough of what they're talking about to
effectively take on this task for the sake of their educational goals (this
is the way these tools started, after all). In fact, as much as they'd hate
to admit it, the GNU project has become much more corporate than
educational today. But let's not get bent out of shape by it - the truth of
the matter is that no one does anything for free (you yourself solicited
funding for the 2.70 update - which did NOT ultimately come from
philanthropic individuals.

2. The Autotools are actually more transparent than any other build tools
out there. All these other tools' (cmake, maven, etc) - that purport to be
so much simpler because they insulate the user from the underlying details
of the build process - these tool's primary failure is that this very
insulation keeps users from being able to make the changes they need to
accomplish their unique project-specific build goals.

Anyone who has nothing but good things to say about this aspect of cmake,
maven, gradle, or whatever, has simply not worked on a project that
requires them to move far enough away from the defaults. I've used them all
and I've spent hours in frustration trying to determine how to work around
the shortcomings of some "do-all" (except what I want) tool function. This
is simply not an issue with the Autotools. As someone mentioned earlier in
this thread, you can drop shell script into a configure.ac file, and make
script into a Makefile.am file. That is the very definition of
transparency. No other tool in existence allows this level of flexibility.

The most interesting feedback I read in the responses was that the
Autotools had an appalling lack of documentation which - ironically - is
actually not true. At the risk of sounding self-serving, I'll say this: in
the research I did for my book (Autotools, No Starch Press, 2019), I
primarily (95%) used the GNU Autotools documentation as reference sources.
The information is all there and actually very concise - too concise
sometimes. The problem with it is two fold.

First, the documentation for GNU projects is most often written by the
author of the code - that's the open source way, after all. This brings
with it all sorts of issues that most corporate documentation
(inadvertently) bypasses by standard corporate siloing protocol - that is,
they relegate doc writing to doc writers, who are often not experts in the
code, so they have to spend the time researching the product from a user's
perspective. This is exactly the perfect storm of events that (usually)
generates pretty good documentation.

Second, the documentation is written in a manner that is not conducive to
fast learning. There are two types of instructive material. The first is
reference material that, by its very nature, requires the user to read and
absorb significant amounts of information until they hit a critical mass of
understanding - an exponential learning curve that starts out long and slow
- at which point they avalanche into the steeper portion of the curve. The
other type of doc provides a much more linear learning experience - it
starts out with enough background information to keep the reader well
entrenched in the learning process, providing examples and discussion of
why things work the way they do, so they become par-experts at subsets of
the data, until they realize (almost surprised) they understand enough to
do the things they want to without too much pain.

Most readers are not patient enough to get past the long, slow portion of
the exponential curve. People want to pick up a book or a manual and become
an expert within the first chapter - they have busy lives and don't want to
spend a good portion of it learning esoteric tools by absorbing long
reference manuals. Therefore, if the documentation were to be supplemented
with a good getting-started guide, it would go a long way toward improving
the documentation.

Regards,
John
_______________________________________________
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  53. 2021-01-06 Tom via gimp-user-list <gimp-user-list-at-gnome.org> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] [Gimp-user] 2.10.22 vs 2.99.4
  54. 2021-01-06 Liam R E Quin <liam-at-holoweb.net> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] [Gimp-user] 2.10.22 vs 2.99.4
  55. 2021-01-06 Len Kurylo via gimp-user-list <gimp-user-list-at-gnome.org> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] [Gimp-user] 2.10.22 vs 2.99.4
  56. 2021-01-03 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] [Gimp-user] How to compile a vala GIMP plugin
  57. 2021-01-08 Ben Bullock <benkasminbullock-at-gmail.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] [png-mng-implement] I can't figure out how to
  58. 2021-01-08 David Horman <davidhorman47-at-gmail.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] [png-mng-implement] I can't figure out how to
  59. 2021-01-11 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] internet freedom os speech,
  60. 2021-01-11 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] internet freedom os speech,
  61. 2021-01-11 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] The genuine depths of the COVID-19 Response: The
  62. 2021-01-11 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] COVID-19 Vaccine is going NOWHERE at this rate
  63. 2021-01-11 Gabor Szabo <gabor-at-szabgab.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] [Perlweekly] #494 - Perl Myths
  64. 2021-01-11 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] internet freedom os speech,
  65. 2021-01-11 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Post COVID-19 Lockup Hell is opened
  66. 2021-01-11 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] What voter fraud?
  67. 2021-01-12 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] internet freedom os speech,
  68. 2021-01-12 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] under reported news on China and Tawian with long
  69. 2021-01-12 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] airline problems with the lockdown
  70. 2021-01-12 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] trump supporters doxed by left
  71. 2021-01-12 NYOUG <execdir-at-nyoug.org> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Upcoming Events for Oracle Professionals
  72. 2021-01-11 From: =?utf-8?Q?Zo=C3=AB_Kooyman=2C_FSF?= <info-at-fsf.org> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Watch "Fight to Repair,
  73. 2021-01-11 From: =?utf-8?Q?Zo=C3=AB_Kooyman=2C_FSF?= <info-at-fsf.org> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Watch "Fight to Repair,
  74. 2021-01-12 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Obsucles to Free Speech Platforms continue to
  75. 2021-01-12 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] down the rabbit hole we go...
  76. 2021-01-12 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Free Speech rubber hits the road..
  77. 2021-01-12 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] left wing free speech
  78. 2021-01-11 Dave Stevens <geek-at-uniserve.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] [Gimp-user] Citation
  79. 2021-01-12 Ofnuts via gimp-user-list <gimp-user-list-at-gnome.org> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] [Gimp-user] Download of Registry
  80. 2021-01-11 Ross Martinek <triarius-at-att.net> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] [Gimp-user] Citation
  81. 2021-01-11 Julian Correa via gimp-user-list <gimp-user-list-at-gnome.org> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] [Gimp-user] Citation
  82. 2021-01-12 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] No Trial By Jury. No Due Process.
  83. 2021-01-12 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Learning from the Golden Gate Bridge
  84. 2021-01-13 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Free Speech being killed across the slaveware
  85. 2021-01-13 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Hot Linux training deals at the Linux Foundation
  86. 2021-01-14 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] R Programing and Statisitcs
  87. 2021-01-15 Javier via artix-general <artix-general-at-artixlinux.org> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] [artix-general] [s6] something to clean up
  88. 2021-01-15 Dudemanguy via artix-general <artix-general-at-artixlinux.org> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] [artix-general] [s6] something to clean up
  89. 2021-01-15 Javier via artix-general <artix-general-at-artixlinux.org> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] [artix-general] [s6] something to clean up
  90. 2021-01-15 Dudemanguy via artix-general <artix-general-at-artixlinux.org> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] [artix-general] [s6] something to clean up
  91. 2021-01-15 Javier via artix-general <artix-general-at-artixlinux.org> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] [artix-general] [s6] something to clean up after
  92. 2021-01-16 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Serious misuse of the term opensource
  93. 2021-01-16 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Serious misuse of the term opensource
  94. 2021-01-16 Kollel Ner Dovid / Yeshiva Chofetz Chaim <info-at-kollelauction.org> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Flights to Israel?? And What Will You Get With $1,
  95. 2021-01-17 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] State demandsed socialist Social Warrior Bullshit
  96. 2021-01-17 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] =?utf-8?q?Freedom_of_Speech_on_the_Internet_-_?=
  97. 2021-01-17 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Big Tech Censorship
  98. 2021-01-17 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Herald Square
  99. 2021-01-18 Gabor Szabo <gabor-at-szabgab.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] [Perlweekly] #495 - Collect O'Reilly Animals
  100. 2021-01-19 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Exceultive order on internet freedom
  101. 2021-01-19 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] This is why there is NO urgency to defeat the
  102. 2021-01-19 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Another Trump step in the right direction ...
  103. 2021-01-19 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] The money goes straight from the US Treasury,
  104. 2021-01-19 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Chinese Economic extortion threatens the west
  105. 2021-01-19 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Everything is FINE with the economy - no rush
  106. 2021-01-19 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Bidens Homeland Security know who is the threat,
  107. 2021-01-19 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Trump Foriegn Policy Doctrim might actually
  108. 2021-01-19 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] The lies and the double speak now goes full force
  109. 2021-01-20 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] airline business is essential to the US economy
  110. 2021-01-20 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Killing out police department
  111. 2021-01-20 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Fare Hikes postoned - but who cares. Everyone is
  112. 2021-01-20 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] Fare Hikes postoned - but who cares. Everyone
  113. 2021-01-20 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Death of NYC businesses
  114. 2021-01-20 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] Death of NYC businesses
  115. 2021-01-20 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Killing jobs the Biden way - first day out
  116. 2021-01-20 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Lies our fathers (and President) tell us
  117. 2021-01-20 Nate Bargmann <n0nb-at-n0nb.us> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] Future plans for Autotools
  118. 2021-01-20 Dan Kegel <dank-at-kegel.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] Future plans for Autotools
  119. 2021-01-20 Andy Tai <atai-at-atai.org> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] Future plans for Autotools
  120. 2021-01-20 Nate Bargmann <n0nb-at-n0nb.us> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] Future plans for Autotools
  121. 2021-01-20 Dan Kegel <dank-at-kegel.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] Future plans for Autotools
  122. 2021-01-20 Gavin Smith <gavinsmith0123-at-gmail.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] Future plans for Autotools
  123. 2021-01-20 Bob Friesenhahn <bfriesen-at-simple.dallas.tx.us> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] Future plans for Autotools
  124. 2021-01-21 Javier via artix-general <artix-general-at-artixlinux.org> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] [artix-general] [s6] wayland and perhaps
  125. 2021-01-20 Dudemanguy via artix-general <artix-general-at-artixlinux.org> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] [artix-general] [s6] wayland and perhaps
  126. 2021-01-20 Kian Kasad via artix-general <artix-general-at-artixlinux.org> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] [artix-general] s6 man pages package
  127. 2021-01-20 Javier via artix-general <artix-general-at-artixlinux.org> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] [artix-general] [s6] wayland and perhaps pipewire
  128. 2021-01-21 amdocs-jobnotification-at-noreply.jobs2web.com Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] New jobs posted from jobs.amdocs.com
  129. 2021-01-21 Javier via artix-general <artix-general-at-artixlinux.org> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] [artix-general] [s6] wayland and perhaps
  130. 2021-01-21 Jacob Moody via artix-general <artix-general-at-artixlinux.org> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] [artix-general] [s6] wayland and perhaps
  131. 2021-01-21 Javier via artix-general <artix-general-at-artixlinux.org> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] [artix-general] [s6] wayland and perhaps
  132. 2021-01-21 Jacob Moody via artix-general <artix-general-at-artixlinux.org> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] [artix-general] [s6] wayland and perhaps
  133. 2021-01-21 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Firs COVID-19 Podcast - hoping to get the second
  134. 2021-01-21 Bob Friesenhahn <bfriesen-at-simple.dallas.tx.us> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] Future plans for Autotools
  135. 2021-01-21 Andy Tai <atai-at-atai.org> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] Future plans for Autotools
  136. 2021-01-21 pluto--- via Discussion list for the autoconf build system Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] Future plans for Autotools
  137. 2021-01-21 John Calcote <john.calcote-at-gmail.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] Future plans for Autotools
  138. 2021-01-21 Gavin Smith <gavinsmith0123-at-gmail.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] Future plans for Autotools
  139. 2021-01-21 Bob Friesenhahn <bfriesen-at-simple.dallas.tx.us> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] Future plans for Autotools
  140. 2021-01-21 Andy Tai <atai-at-atai.org> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] Future plans for Autotools
  141. 2021-01-21 pluto--- via Discussion list for the autoconf build system Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] Future plans for Autotools
  142. 2021-01-21 John Calcote <john.calcote-at-gmail.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] Future plans for Autotools
  143. 2021-01-21 Gavin Smith <gavinsmith0123-at-gmail.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] Future plans for Autotools
  144. 2021-01-21 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] And away we gooo
  145. 2021-01-21 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Lockdown? What lockdown?
  146. 2021-01-21 Bob Friesenhahn <bfriesen-at-simple.dallas.tx.us> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] Future plans for Autotools
  147. 2021-01-21 Andy Tai <atai-at-atai.org> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] Future plans for Autotools
  148. 2021-01-21 pluto--- via Discussion list for the autoconf build system Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] Future plans for Autotools
  149. 2021-01-21 John Calcote <john.calcote-at-gmail.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] Future plans for Autotools
  150. 2021-01-21 Andy Tai <atai-at-atai.org> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] Future plans for Autotools
  151. 2021-01-21 pluto--- via Discussion list for the autoconf build system Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] Future plans for Autotools
  152. 2021-01-21 Bob Friesenhahn <bfriesen-at-simple.dallas.tx.us> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] Future plans for Autotools
  153. 2021-01-22 From: "S." <sman356-at-yahoo.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] And away we gooo | | Excellent information !
  154. 2021-01-21 John Calcote <john.calcote-at-gmail.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] Future plans for Autotools
  155. 2021-01-21 Tom Tromey <tom-at-tromey.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] Future plans for Autotools
  156. 2021-01-22 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] The individual freedom ....
  157. 2021-01-22 Eli Schwartz <eschwartz-at-archlinux.org> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] Future plans for Autotools
  158. 2021-01-22 Nick Bowler <nbowler-at-draconx.ca> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] Future plans for Autotools
  159. 2021-01-21 Zack Weinberg <zackw-at-panix.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] Future plans for Autotools
  160. 2021-01-21 Paul Eggert <eggert-at-cs.ucla.edu> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] Future plans for Autotools
  161. 2021-01-21 Paul Eggert <eggert-at-cs.ucla.edu> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] Future plans for Autotools
  162. 2021-01-21 Paul Eggert <eggert-at-cs.ucla.edu> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] Future plans for Autotools
  163. 2021-01-22 Kip Warner <kip-at-thevertigo.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] Future plans for Autotools
  164. 2021-01-12 Ofnuts via gimp-user-list <gimp-user-list-at-gnome.org> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] [Gimp-user] Download of Registry
  165. 2021-01-22 Jeffery Small via gimp-user-list <gimp-user-list-at-gnome.org> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] [Gimp-user] Any way to disable GIMP from
  166. 2021-01-22 Akkana Peck <akkana-at-shallowsky.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] [Gimp-user] How to change colors of patterns
  167. 2021-01-22 Dennis <gimp-forums-at-mgssub.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] [Gimp-user] How to change colors of patterns
  168. 2021-01-22 Liam R E Quin <liam-at-holoweb.net> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] [Gimp-user] Any way to disable GIMP from
  169. 2021-01-21 From: "Rick Strong" <rnstrong-at-primus.ca> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] [Gimp-user] Images different in other editors
  170. 2021-01-20 Ofnuts via gimp-user-list <gimp-user-list-at-gnome.org> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] [Gimp-user] setting DPI for Gimp
  171. 2021-01-20 Helmut Jarausch via gimp-user-list <gimp-user-list-at-gnome.org> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] [Gimp-user] setting DPI for Gimp
  172. 2021-01-20 Michael Schumacher via gimp-user-list <gimp-user-list-at-gnome.org> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] [Gimp-user] Any way to disable GIMP from
  173. 2021-01-20 Jeffery Small via gimp-user-list <gimp-user-list-at-gnome.org> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] [Gimp-user] Any way to disable GIMP from touching
  174. 2021-01-20 Kat <Kat-at-eusamart.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] [Gimp-user] My Fuzzy Select tool
  175. 2021-01-21 Dennis <gimp-forums-at-mgssub.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] [Gimp-user] How to change colors of patterns
  176. 2021-01-24 Tom Tromey <tom-at-tromey.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] Future plans for Autotools
  177. 2021-01-25 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] [ Docs ] How much longer can these idiots
  178. 2021-01-25 Paul Eggert <eggert-at-cs.ucla.edu> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] Future plans for Autotools
  179. 2021-01-25 Bob Friesenhahn <bfriesen-at-simple.dallas.tx.us> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] Future plans for Autotools
  180. 2021-01-25 Bob Friesenhahn <bfriesen-at-simple.dallas.tx.us> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] Future plans for Autotools
  181. 2021-01-25 Paul Smith <psmith-at-gnu.org> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] Future plans for Autotools
  182. 2021-01-25 Nick Bowler <nbowler-at-draconx.ca> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] Future plans for Autotools
  183. 2021-01-25 From: "David A. Wheeler" <dwheeler-at-dwheeler.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] Future plans for Autotools
  184. 2021-01-25 John Calcote <john.calcote-at-gmail.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] Future plans for Autotools
  185. 2021-01-25 Paul Smith <psmith-at-gnu.org> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] Future plans for Autotools
  186. 2021-01-25 Zack Weinberg <zackw-at-panix.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] Future plans for Autotools
  187. 2021-01-25 Paul Smith <psmith-at-gnu.org> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] Future plans for Autotools
  188. 2021-01-25 Gabor Szabo <gabor-at-szabgab.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] [Perlweekly] #496 - Statocles vs Hugo
  189. 2021-01-25 aviva <aviva-at-gmx.us> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] MORE Democratics Campaign Fraud: Big Machine
  190. 2021-01-25 aviva <aviva-at-gmx.us> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] [ Docs ] How much longer can these idiots
  191. 2021-01-25 Paul Eggert <eggert-at-cs.ucla.edu> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] Future plans for Autotools
  192. 2021-01-25 Gavin Smith <gavinsmith0123-at-gmail.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] Future plans for Autotools
  193. 2021-01-25 Gavin Smith <gavinsmith0123-at-gmail.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] Future plans for Autotools
  194. 2021-01-25 Nick Bowler <nbowler-at-draconx.ca> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] Future plans for Autotools
  195. 2021-01-25 Bob Friesenhahn <bfriesen-at-simple.dallas.tx.us> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] Future plans for Autotools
  196. 2021-01-25 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] US Censorship is now truning Chinese
  197. 2021-01-25 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] John Brennan - Criminal
  198. 2021-01-26 facebook <facebook-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] =?utf-8?q?Fwd=3A_Congratulate_Paul_R=2E_Rodr?=
  199. 2021-01-26 Paul Smith <psmith-at-gnu.org> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] Future plans for Autotools
  200. 2021-01-26 Paul Smith <psmith-at-gnu.org> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] Future plans for Autotools
  201. 2021-01-26 Andy Tai <atai-at-atai.org> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] Future plans for Autotools
  202. 2021-01-26 Richard Purdie <richard.purdie-at-linuxfoundation.org> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] Future plans for Autotools
  203. 2021-01-26 Joseph Myers <joseph-at-codesourcery.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] Future plans for Autotools
  204. 2021-01-27 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] The ULTIMATE in fake news
  205. 2021-01-27 Richard Purdie <richard.purdie-at-linuxfoundation.org> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] Future plans for Autotools
  206. 2021-01-27 Joseph Myers <joseph-at-codesourcery.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] Future plans for Autotools
  207. 2021-01-27 From: "Pharmacy Times Continuing Education" <reply-at-email.pharmacytimes.org> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] =?utf-8?q?COVID-19_Care=3A_How_to_Best_Apply_C?=
  208. 2021-01-27 Karl Berry <karl-at-freefriends.org> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] Future plans for Autotools
  209. 2021-01-29 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Socialists are driving the market crazy
  210. 2021-01-29 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] You really need to watch this because we just
  211. 2021-01-29 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Vaccinations and the "Green Passport"
  212. 2021-01-29 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Solarwidns hack deepens
  213. 2021-01-29 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] you are watching a repeat of the 1929 stoclk
  214. 2021-01-29 Richard Purdie <richard.purdie-at-linuxfoundation.org> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] Future plans for Autotools
  215. 2021-01-29 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] You cat the Prodcut
  216. 2021-01-29 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] You ARE the product...
  217. 2021-01-29 From: "Optimum" <optimum-at-mail.optimumemail1.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Winter storm preparation.
  218. 2021-01-30 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Lies the Social Justice Warriors Tell Us
  219. 2021-01-30 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Are you COLD? Well,
  220. 2021-01-30 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] The Left is coming for you and COVID-19 is the
  221. 2021-01-30 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Fwd: This week at Humble: Winter Store Sale,
  222. 2021-01-30 Bob Long <bob-at-oblong.com.au> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] [Gimp-user] GIMP is awful, heres why.
  223. 2021-01-30 Alexandre Prokoudine via gimp-user-list <gimp-user-list-at-gnome.org> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] [Gimp-user] GIMP is awful, heres why.
  224. 2021-01-30 Kat <Kat-at-eusamart.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] [Gimp-user] GIMP is awful, heres why.
  225. 2021-01-30 Mark Morin <mdmpsyd-at-gwi.net> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] [Gimp-user] GIMP is awful, heres why.
  226. 2021-01-30 Liam R E Quin <liam-at-holoweb.net> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] [Gimp-user] GIMP is awful, heres why.
  227. 2021-01-29 From: "Lani P. Richards via gimp-user-list" <gimp-user-list-at-gnome.org> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] [Gimp-user] GIMP *super* slow on new iMac
  228. 2021-01-30 From: =?utf-8?q?Jehan_Pag=C3=A8s_via_gimp-user-list?= Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] [Gimp-user] GIMP *super* slow on new iMac
  229. 2021-01-29 Alexandre Prokoudine via gimp-user-list <gimp-user-list-at-gnome.org> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] [Gimp-user] GIMP *super* slow on new iMac
  230. 2021-01-29 Liam R E Quin <liam-at-holoweb.net> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] [Gimp-user] GIMP *super* slow on new iMac
  231. 2021-01-30 Liam R E Quin <liam-at-holoweb.net> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] [Gimp-user] GIMP *super* slow on new iMac
  232. 2021-01-23 Rob Watson via gimp-user-list <gimp-user-list-at-gnome.org> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] [Gimp-user] Wavelet denoise
  233. 2021-01-27 Alexandre Prokoudine via gimp-user-list <gimp-user-list-at-gnome.org> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] [Gimp-user] Wavelet denoise
  234. 2021-01-28 Owen via gimp-user-list <gimp-user-list-at-gnome.org> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] [Gimp-user] How to change colors of patterns
  235. 2021-01-27 From: "Rick Strong" <rnstrong-at-primus.ca> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] [Gimp-user] Does "Emboss" filter work?
  236. 2021-01-27 Liam R E Quin <liam-at-holoweb.net> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] [Gimp-user] Does "Emboss" filter work?
  237. 2021-01-24 From: "Rick Strong" <rnstrong-at-primus.ca> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] [Gimp-user] Does "Emboss" filter work?
  238. 2021-01-30 Patrick Duehring via gimp-user-list <gimp-user-list-at-gnome.org> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] [Gimp-user] GIMP is awful, heres why.
  239. 2021-01-31 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] The value of community
  240. 2021-01-31 Gavin Smith <gavinsmith0123-at-gmail.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] Future plans for Autotools
  241. 2021-01-31 Gavin Smith <gavinsmith0123-at-gmail.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] Future plans for Autotools
  242. 2021-01-31 Gavin Smith <gavinsmith0123-at-gmail.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] Future plans for Autotools
  243. 2021-01-30 Cristian =?UTF-8?Q?Secar=C4=83?= <liste-at-secarica.ro> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] [Gimp-user] GIMP is awful, heres why.
  244. 2021-01-31 Michael Schumacher via gimp-user-list <gimp-user-list-at-gnome.org> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] [Gimp-user] My Fuzzy Select tool
  245. 2021-01-31 Johnny Rosenberg via gimp-user-list <gimp-user-list-at-gnome.org> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] [Gimp-user] GIMP is awful, heres why.
  246. 2021-01-31 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] [ Docs ] Are you COLD? Well,
  247. 2021-01-31 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] (2/18) - GC of GOOGLE - Legal, data privacy,
  248. 2021-01-29 Erik Lauritsen via artix-general <artix-general-at-artixlinux.org> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] [artix-general] Please make an antix-announce
  249. 2021-01-29 Erik Lauritsen via artix-general <artix-general-at-artixlinux.org> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] [artix-general] Please make an antix-announce
  250. 2021-01-30 From: "Canarsie Courier" <updates-at-canarsiecourier.net> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Grow Your Business For Only $25.00 Weekly
  251. 2021-01-26 From: "Wesley Peng" <wesley-at-pengfamily.de> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] perl's pulsar client
  252. 2021-01-26 From: "Wesley Peng" <wesley-at-pengfamily.de> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] perl's pulsar client
  253. 2021-01-26 Mithun Bhattacharya <mithnb-at-gmail.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] perl's pulsar client

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