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MESSAGE
DATE 2021-01-21
FROM Zack Weinberg
SUBJECT Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] Future plans for Autotools
From hangout-bounces-at-nylxs.com Sat Jan 23 11:00:35 2021
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Subject: Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] Future plans for Autotools
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On Wed, Jan 20, 2021 at 5:15 PM Zack Weinberg wrote:
> Now we've all had a while to recover from the long-awaited Autoconf
> 2.70 release, I'd like to start a conversation about where the
> Autotools in general might be going in the future.

> Now we've all had a while to recover from the long-awaited Autoconf
> 2.70 release, I'd like to start a conversation about where the
> Autotools in general might be going in the future.

Thanks for all the great thoughtful responses that came in overnight!
I see many people expressing similar sentiments, so rather than
respond to each of you individually I'm going to summarize and reply
to each strand in this one message.

> continuous integration for Autotools

This is one of my highest priorities for what volunteer time I have in
the next few months. The biggest difficulty with CI, as I see it, is
that Autotools needs to be tested on a very wide variety of operating
systems, and ideally *versions* of operating systems, and unusual
compilers, and so on, in order to confirm that it's still fulfilling
its contract. Testing just on the "big three" operating systems
(Linux, Windows, MacOS) typically supported by commercial CI providers
... would be better than nothing, but would not have helped all that
much with the 2.70 release, if I'm honest. GNU's Hydra instance
(https://www.gnu.org/software/devel.en.html#Hydra -- I didn't
previously know about this, thank you Dan for pointing it out) is a
strong contender just because it has FreeBSD and Solaris as well.

> implementation languages - can't we do better than shell+perl+m4?

I deeply sympathize with frustration with M4 and portable shell as
implementation languages. Perl isn't so bad IMO, but being restricted
to perl 5.6.0 with no CPAN modules is also a headache.

Having said that, switching to *anything else* would be a gigantic
task -- multiple full-time person-years of effort just for the core --
and would mean either porting or losing all of the third-party macro
libraries. I don't think it makes sense to explore this possibility
any further unless both a lot of funding and a lot of developers
materialize.

A lesser possibility we could think about, would be dusting off GNU M4
2.0 and thinking about what we could change about the M4 language to
make it friendlier for Autoconf's purposes. Again I would want
funding and developers lined up, but we'd not need quite so much of
either.

And we probably could bump up the minimum version requirement for Perl
quite some ways, since it's only needed at autoreconf time. I'm not
sure how much Autoconf would gain from this, though, since it's only
incrementally changed since 5.6 and Autoconf doesn't do *that* much
with it. Automake uses it much more heavily, though, perhaps people
from that project would like to comment?

[Nate Bargmann]
> One strength of the Autotools that I think stands above the rest is
> the fact that a user of a distributed package does not need to
> install any of the Autotools packages.

I definitely agree with this, and I'm putting it right next to the
"implementation languages" note because this is a compelling reason to
stick to shell as the language for generated configure scripts. The
only alternative that would come anywhere near as close in terms of
"just unpack and run" portability is Perl. Which is a tempting
possibility -- it would wipe out dozens of internal headaches due to
shell's limitations and portability quirks -- but again, multiple
full-time person-years of effort, losing the third-party macro
libraries, and we *would* be making life harder for people starting
from scratch on OSes that don't bundle Perl.

> Autotools are too difficult to work on

Yes indeed. On the assumption that we are stuck with shell, M4, and
Perl, however, what can we do about it? I have a few ideas, maybe you
have more:

- A linter for configure.ac and third-party macro libraries.
This wouldn't be any fun to write, because it would have to parse
both M4 and shell, *accurately*, but it would be valuable to every
user of autoconf.

- The parser for the linter could also be used as the basis for a
reimplementation of autoupdate that *doesn't* rely on running
configure.ac through M4 with most of the macros disabled. That
implementation choice is responsible for most of the bugs in
autoupdate, and for most of its limitations (e.g. not being able to
fix quotation errors).

- Audit existing configure.ac's looking for pain points: where are
people having trouble doing the checks they need, where are people
not realizing that they don't need to work so hard, where are people
not realizing that they don't need to check for that at all...

- Audit the core for workarounds that are no longer necessary now we
can rely on shell functions (I'm looking at you, AC_LANG_*).

- Better documentation and better debugging tools. Speaking of which,
here's an interesting bit from Russell:

[Russell Shaw]
> The biggest problem i had that wasted the most time is that none of
> the documentation gave a good overview of the sequence of steps the
> main perl script did to process the files and produce the output,
> and intermediate files involved.

The "Autom4te" layer really is quite poorly documented, and it gives
the impression that it's more important than it actually is. It
exists primarily for the sake of programs like autoheader and automake
that want to extract information from a configure.ac *instead of*
generating configure; when you're running autoconf proper, the main
things it does are select the appropriate .m4f file and postprocess
diagnostics. And it's a hindrance to debugging problems with the M4
layer. I have lost count of the number of times, while fixing bugs
in the run-up to 2.70, that I had to run autoconf --verbose, extract
the actual M4 invocation command line, revise it heavily in an editor
window, and then run it separately.

> Using a language like C++ where a step-by-step debugger like gdb can
> be used would have been good.

I'm a printf-debugging person myself, but that is *also* too hard with
autoconf. GNU M4's trace functionality could be improved, and a way
to single-step through macro expansion could be added, and an
interactive REPL would be nice. This is all in the land of things
we'd probably need to pay people to work on, though.

[Bob Friesenhahn]
> There is a fork of Automake which was re-done to be based on GNU
> Make. This assumes that makefiles written in GNU make can noticeably
> improve things. I like your idea of supporting other underlying
> build tools besides 'make'. Make's dependence on matching rules and
> file time stamps is problematic and it does not scale.

I haven't ever followed automake development closely. I know that
at least one person has tried to write a set of GNU Make library files
intended to replace it altogether, but I've never seen anyone *finish*
that project. I'd very much like to see someone give that another go.

The alternative to the Make family of tools, that I'm most familiar
with, is Ninja, and it also depends on matching rules and file time
stamps. What do you have in mind as a replacement for these things?
Is there already an alternative tool that you like?

Part of why I want to see Automake be able to generate configurations
for different build drivers, is that if Automake actually took
advantage of build-driver capabilities beyond the lowest common
denominator, that would give the people working on build drivers more
of a reason to improve those capabilities. Hard to be motivated to
hack on something when no one uses it, after all.

[Nate Bargmann]
> At the moment the project(s) that seem to be working toward replacing
> all things GNU do allow the later installation of GNU software
> ...
> What negative impact would relying solely on GNU make have on third
> party projects intending to build on platforms where the
> installation of GNU make may become discouraged?

Speaking personally, I am not interested in making any effort to cater
to organizations and projects that are averse to the GPL. I think
copyleft is a vital tool for preventing corporations from building on
my hard work without compensating me in any way whatsoever. The
existing Autoconf license exception -- you can ship a generated
configure script with your non-GPL program without being required to
conform with the GPL because of it -- is already enough of an indulgence,
IMNSHO.

As a concrete example of a situation where this *already* causes
friction with redistributors: OpenBSD has heavily patched the copy of
Autoconf 2.69 they ship with their base system so that it can use
their implementation of M4 and they don't have to ship GNU M4. I
don't think we should worry about that *at all* when considering
improvements to GNU M4 for Autoconf's sake.

I have a lot more sympathy with people who are annoyed with the GNU
*project* and/or the FSF. I have any number of my own grievances with
them. However, I would prefer not to get into that in this
conversation, because it's liable to drag it off-topic and/or turn
into a flame war. Let's declare the known obstacles imposed on
Autotools by the FSF -- concretely, the requirement for copyright
assignment paperwork and the requirement not to use proprietary CI and
forge services -- immobile and out-of-scope for this discussion.

zw
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  41. 2021-01-05 NYOUG <execdir-at-nyoug.org> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Upcoming Events for Oracle Professionals
  42. 2021-01-05 Karl Auer <kauer-at-biplane.com.au> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] Sender address rejected: Domain not found
  43. 2021-01-04 From: "Odile C. Kamno" <christelia3-at-hotmail.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] [Health] Set another Default value on
  44. 2021-01-05 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] WEchat - political survailence - the Baby with
  45. 2021-01-05 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] change the past..
  46. 2021-01-06 James E Keenan <jkeenan-at-pobox.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Perl Foundation Survey;
  47. 2021-01-06 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Vaccine locals in Brooklyn
  48. 2021-01-06 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] [users-at-httpd] Apache shows PHP code instead
  49. 2021-01-06 Tatsuki Makino <tatsuki_makino-at-hotmail.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] [users-at-httpd] Opening Web Interface
  50. 2021-01-06 dino-at-tuxweb.it Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] [users-at-httpd] Apache shows PHP code instead
  51. 2021-01-06 Eric Covener <covener-at-gmail.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] [users-at-httpd] Apache shows PHP code instead
  52. 2021-01-06 Len Kurylo via gimp-user-list <gimp-user-list-at-gnome.org> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] [Gimp-user] 2.10.22 vs 2.99.4
  53. 2021-01-06 Tom via gimp-user-list <gimp-user-list-at-gnome.org> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] [Gimp-user] 2.10.22 vs 2.99.4
  54. 2021-01-06 Liam R E Quin <liam-at-holoweb.net> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] [Gimp-user] 2.10.22 vs 2.99.4
  55. 2021-01-06 Len Kurylo via gimp-user-list <gimp-user-list-at-gnome.org> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] [Gimp-user] 2.10.22 vs 2.99.4
  56. 2021-01-03 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] [Gimp-user] How to compile a vala GIMP plugin
  57. 2021-01-08 Ben Bullock <benkasminbullock-at-gmail.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] [png-mng-implement] I can't figure out how to
  58. 2021-01-08 David Horman <davidhorman47-at-gmail.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] [png-mng-implement] I can't figure out how to
  59. 2021-01-11 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] internet freedom os speech,
  60. 2021-01-11 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] internet freedom os speech,
  61. 2021-01-11 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] The genuine depths of the COVID-19 Response: The
  62. 2021-01-11 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] COVID-19 Vaccine is going NOWHERE at this rate
  63. 2021-01-11 Gabor Szabo <gabor-at-szabgab.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] [Perlweekly] #494 - Perl Myths
  64. 2021-01-11 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] internet freedom os speech,
  65. 2021-01-11 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Post COVID-19 Lockup Hell is opened
  66. 2021-01-11 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] What voter fraud?
  67. 2021-01-12 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] internet freedom os speech,
  68. 2021-01-12 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] under reported news on China and Tawian with long
  69. 2021-01-12 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] airline problems with the lockdown
  70. 2021-01-12 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] trump supporters doxed by left
  71. 2021-01-12 NYOUG <execdir-at-nyoug.org> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Upcoming Events for Oracle Professionals
  72. 2021-01-11 From: =?utf-8?Q?Zo=C3=AB_Kooyman=2C_FSF?= <info-at-fsf.org> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Watch "Fight to Repair,
  73. 2021-01-11 From: =?utf-8?Q?Zo=C3=AB_Kooyman=2C_FSF?= <info-at-fsf.org> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Watch "Fight to Repair,
  74. 2021-01-12 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Obsucles to Free Speech Platforms continue to
  75. 2021-01-12 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] down the rabbit hole we go...
  76. 2021-01-12 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Free Speech rubber hits the road..
  77. 2021-01-12 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] left wing free speech
  78. 2021-01-11 Dave Stevens <geek-at-uniserve.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] [Gimp-user] Citation
  79. 2021-01-12 Ofnuts via gimp-user-list <gimp-user-list-at-gnome.org> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] [Gimp-user] Download of Registry
  80. 2021-01-11 Ross Martinek <triarius-at-att.net> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] [Gimp-user] Citation
  81. 2021-01-11 Julian Correa via gimp-user-list <gimp-user-list-at-gnome.org> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] [Gimp-user] Citation
  82. 2021-01-12 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] No Trial By Jury. No Due Process.
  83. 2021-01-12 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Learning from the Golden Gate Bridge
  84. 2021-01-13 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Free Speech being killed across the slaveware
  85. 2021-01-13 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Hot Linux training deals at the Linux Foundation
  86. 2021-01-14 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] R Programing and Statisitcs
  87. 2021-01-15 Javier via artix-general <artix-general-at-artixlinux.org> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] [artix-general] [s6] something to clean up
  88. 2021-01-15 Dudemanguy via artix-general <artix-general-at-artixlinux.org> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] [artix-general] [s6] something to clean up
  89. 2021-01-15 Javier via artix-general <artix-general-at-artixlinux.org> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] [artix-general] [s6] something to clean up
  90. 2021-01-15 Dudemanguy via artix-general <artix-general-at-artixlinux.org> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] [artix-general] [s6] something to clean up
  91. 2021-01-15 Javier via artix-general <artix-general-at-artixlinux.org> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] [artix-general] [s6] something to clean up after
  92. 2021-01-16 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Serious misuse of the term opensource
  93. 2021-01-16 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Serious misuse of the term opensource
  94. 2021-01-16 Kollel Ner Dovid / Yeshiva Chofetz Chaim <info-at-kollelauction.org> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Flights to Israel?? And What Will You Get With $1,
  95. 2021-01-17 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] State demandsed socialist Social Warrior Bullshit
  96. 2021-01-17 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] =?utf-8?q?Freedom_of_Speech_on_the_Internet_-_?=
  97. 2021-01-17 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Big Tech Censorship
  98. 2021-01-17 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Herald Square
  99. 2021-01-18 Gabor Szabo <gabor-at-szabgab.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] [Perlweekly] #495 - Collect O'Reilly Animals
  100. 2021-01-19 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Exceultive order on internet freedom
  101. 2021-01-19 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] This is why there is NO urgency to defeat the
  102. 2021-01-19 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Another Trump step in the right direction ...
  103. 2021-01-19 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] The money goes straight from the US Treasury,
  104. 2021-01-19 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Chinese Economic extortion threatens the west
  105. 2021-01-19 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Everything is FINE with the economy - no rush
  106. 2021-01-19 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Bidens Homeland Security know who is the threat,
  107. 2021-01-19 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Trump Foriegn Policy Doctrim might actually
  108. 2021-01-19 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] The lies and the double speak now goes full force
  109. 2021-01-20 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] airline business is essential to the US economy
  110. 2021-01-20 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Killing out police department
  111. 2021-01-20 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Fare Hikes postoned - but who cares. Everyone is
  112. 2021-01-20 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] Fare Hikes postoned - but who cares. Everyone
  113. 2021-01-20 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Death of NYC businesses
  114. 2021-01-20 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] Death of NYC businesses
  115. 2021-01-20 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Killing jobs the Biden way - first day out
  116. 2021-01-20 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Lies our fathers (and President) tell us
  117. 2021-01-20 Nate Bargmann <n0nb-at-n0nb.us> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] Future plans for Autotools
  118. 2021-01-20 Dan Kegel <dank-at-kegel.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] Future plans for Autotools
  119. 2021-01-20 Andy Tai <atai-at-atai.org> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] Future plans for Autotools
  120. 2021-01-20 Nate Bargmann <n0nb-at-n0nb.us> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] Future plans for Autotools
  121. 2021-01-20 Dan Kegel <dank-at-kegel.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] Future plans for Autotools
  122. 2021-01-20 Gavin Smith <gavinsmith0123-at-gmail.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] Future plans for Autotools
  123. 2021-01-20 Bob Friesenhahn <bfriesen-at-simple.dallas.tx.us> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] Future plans for Autotools
  124. 2021-01-21 Javier via artix-general <artix-general-at-artixlinux.org> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] [artix-general] [s6] wayland and perhaps
  125. 2021-01-20 Dudemanguy via artix-general <artix-general-at-artixlinux.org> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] [artix-general] [s6] wayland and perhaps
  126. 2021-01-20 Kian Kasad via artix-general <artix-general-at-artixlinux.org> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] [artix-general] s6 man pages package
  127. 2021-01-20 Javier via artix-general <artix-general-at-artixlinux.org> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] [artix-general] [s6] wayland and perhaps pipewire
  128. 2021-01-21 amdocs-jobnotification-at-noreply.jobs2web.com Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] New jobs posted from jobs.amdocs.com
  129. 2021-01-21 Javier via artix-general <artix-general-at-artixlinux.org> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] [artix-general] [s6] wayland and perhaps
  130. 2021-01-21 Jacob Moody via artix-general <artix-general-at-artixlinux.org> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] [artix-general] [s6] wayland and perhaps
  131. 2021-01-21 Javier via artix-general <artix-general-at-artixlinux.org> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] [artix-general] [s6] wayland and perhaps
  132. 2021-01-21 Jacob Moody via artix-general <artix-general-at-artixlinux.org> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] [artix-general] [s6] wayland and perhaps
  133. 2021-01-21 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Firs COVID-19 Podcast - hoping to get the second
  134. 2021-01-21 Bob Friesenhahn <bfriesen-at-simple.dallas.tx.us> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] Future plans for Autotools
  135. 2021-01-21 Andy Tai <atai-at-atai.org> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] Future plans for Autotools
  136. 2021-01-21 pluto--- via Discussion list for the autoconf build system Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] Future plans for Autotools
  137. 2021-01-21 John Calcote <john.calcote-at-gmail.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] Future plans for Autotools
  138. 2021-01-21 Gavin Smith <gavinsmith0123-at-gmail.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] Future plans for Autotools
  139. 2021-01-21 Bob Friesenhahn <bfriesen-at-simple.dallas.tx.us> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] Future plans for Autotools
  140. 2021-01-21 Andy Tai <atai-at-atai.org> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] Future plans for Autotools
  141. 2021-01-21 pluto--- via Discussion list for the autoconf build system Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] Future plans for Autotools
  142. 2021-01-21 John Calcote <john.calcote-at-gmail.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] Future plans for Autotools
  143. 2021-01-21 Gavin Smith <gavinsmith0123-at-gmail.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] Future plans for Autotools
  144. 2021-01-21 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] And away we gooo
  145. 2021-01-21 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Lockdown? What lockdown?
  146. 2021-01-21 Bob Friesenhahn <bfriesen-at-simple.dallas.tx.us> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] Future plans for Autotools
  147. 2021-01-21 Andy Tai <atai-at-atai.org> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] Future plans for Autotools
  148. 2021-01-21 pluto--- via Discussion list for the autoconf build system Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] Future plans for Autotools
  149. 2021-01-21 John Calcote <john.calcote-at-gmail.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] Future plans for Autotools
  150. 2021-01-21 Andy Tai <atai-at-atai.org> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] Future plans for Autotools
  151. 2021-01-21 pluto--- via Discussion list for the autoconf build system Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] Future plans for Autotools
  152. 2021-01-21 Bob Friesenhahn <bfriesen-at-simple.dallas.tx.us> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] Future plans for Autotools
  153. 2021-01-22 From: "S." <sman356-at-yahoo.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] And away we gooo | | Excellent information !
  154. 2021-01-21 John Calcote <john.calcote-at-gmail.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] Future plans for Autotools
  155. 2021-01-21 Tom Tromey <tom-at-tromey.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] Future plans for Autotools
  156. 2021-01-22 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] The individual freedom ....
  157. 2021-01-22 Eli Schwartz <eschwartz-at-archlinux.org> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] Future plans for Autotools
  158. 2021-01-22 Nick Bowler <nbowler-at-draconx.ca> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] Future plans for Autotools
  159. 2021-01-21 Zack Weinberg <zackw-at-panix.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] Future plans for Autotools
  160. 2021-01-21 Paul Eggert <eggert-at-cs.ucla.edu> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] Future plans for Autotools
  161. 2021-01-21 Paul Eggert <eggert-at-cs.ucla.edu> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] Future plans for Autotools
  162. 2021-01-21 Paul Eggert <eggert-at-cs.ucla.edu> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] Future plans for Autotools
  163. 2021-01-22 Kip Warner <kip-at-thevertigo.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] Future plans for Autotools
  164. 2021-01-12 Ofnuts via gimp-user-list <gimp-user-list-at-gnome.org> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] [Gimp-user] Download of Registry
  165. 2021-01-22 Jeffery Small via gimp-user-list <gimp-user-list-at-gnome.org> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] [Gimp-user] Any way to disable GIMP from
  166. 2021-01-22 Akkana Peck <akkana-at-shallowsky.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] [Gimp-user] How to change colors of patterns
  167. 2021-01-22 Dennis <gimp-forums-at-mgssub.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] [Gimp-user] How to change colors of patterns
  168. 2021-01-22 Liam R E Quin <liam-at-holoweb.net> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] [Gimp-user] Any way to disable GIMP from
  169. 2021-01-21 From: "Rick Strong" <rnstrong-at-primus.ca> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] [Gimp-user] Images different in other editors
  170. 2021-01-20 Ofnuts via gimp-user-list <gimp-user-list-at-gnome.org> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] [Gimp-user] setting DPI for Gimp
  171. 2021-01-20 Helmut Jarausch via gimp-user-list <gimp-user-list-at-gnome.org> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] [Gimp-user] setting DPI for Gimp
  172. 2021-01-20 Michael Schumacher via gimp-user-list <gimp-user-list-at-gnome.org> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] [Gimp-user] Any way to disable GIMP from
  173. 2021-01-20 Jeffery Small via gimp-user-list <gimp-user-list-at-gnome.org> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] [Gimp-user] Any way to disable GIMP from touching
  174. 2021-01-20 Kat <Kat-at-eusamart.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] [Gimp-user] My Fuzzy Select tool
  175. 2021-01-21 Dennis <gimp-forums-at-mgssub.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] [Gimp-user] How to change colors of patterns
  176. 2021-01-24 Tom Tromey <tom-at-tromey.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] Future plans for Autotools
  177. 2021-01-25 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] [ Docs ] How much longer can these idiots
  178. 2021-01-25 Paul Eggert <eggert-at-cs.ucla.edu> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] Future plans for Autotools
  179. 2021-01-25 Bob Friesenhahn <bfriesen-at-simple.dallas.tx.us> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] Future plans for Autotools
  180. 2021-01-25 Bob Friesenhahn <bfriesen-at-simple.dallas.tx.us> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] Future plans for Autotools
  181. 2021-01-25 Paul Smith <psmith-at-gnu.org> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] Future plans for Autotools
  182. 2021-01-25 Nick Bowler <nbowler-at-draconx.ca> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] Future plans for Autotools
  183. 2021-01-25 From: "David A. Wheeler" <dwheeler-at-dwheeler.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] Future plans for Autotools
  184. 2021-01-25 John Calcote <john.calcote-at-gmail.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] Future plans for Autotools
  185. 2021-01-25 Paul Smith <psmith-at-gnu.org> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] Future plans for Autotools
  186. 2021-01-25 Zack Weinberg <zackw-at-panix.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] Future plans for Autotools
  187. 2021-01-25 Paul Smith <psmith-at-gnu.org> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] Future plans for Autotools
  188. 2021-01-25 Gabor Szabo <gabor-at-szabgab.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] [Perlweekly] #496 - Statocles vs Hugo
  189. 2021-01-25 aviva <aviva-at-gmx.us> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] MORE Democratics Campaign Fraud: Big Machine
  190. 2021-01-25 aviva <aviva-at-gmx.us> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] [ Docs ] How much longer can these idiots
  191. 2021-01-25 Paul Eggert <eggert-at-cs.ucla.edu> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] Future plans for Autotools
  192. 2021-01-25 Gavin Smith <gavinsmith0123-at-gmail.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] Future plans for Autotools
  193. 2021-01-25 Gavin Smith <gavinsmith0123-at-gmail.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] Future plans for Autotools
  194. 2021-01-25 Nick Bowler <nbowler-at-draconx.ca> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] Future plans for Autotools
  195. 2021-01-25 Bob Friesenhahn <bfriesen-at-simple.dallas.tx.us> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] Future plans for Autotools
  196. 2021-01-25 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] US Censorship is now truning Chinese
  197. 2021-01-25 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] John Brennan - Criminal
  198. 2021-01-26 facebook <facebook-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] =?utf-8?q?Fwd=3A_Congratulate_Paul_R=2E_Rodr?=
  199. 2021-01-26 Paul Smith <psmith-at-gnu.org> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] Future plans for Autotools
  200. 2021-01-26 Paul Smith <psmith-at-gnu.org> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] Future plans for Autotools
  201. 2021-01-26 Andy Tai <atai-at-atai.org> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] Future plans for Autotools
  202. 2021-01-26 Richard Purdie <richard.purdie-at-linuxfoundation.org> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] Future plans for Autotools
  203. 2021-01-26 Joseph Myers <joseph-at-codesourcery.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] Future plans for Autotools
  204. 2021-01-27 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] The ULTIMATE in fake news
  205. 2021-01-27 Richard Purdie <richard.purdie-at-linuxfoundation.org> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] Future plans for Autotools
  206. 2021-01-27 Joseph Myers <joseph-at-codesourcery.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] Future plans for Autotools
  207. 2021-01-27 From: "Pharmacy Times Continuing Education" <reply-at-email.pharmacytimes.org> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] =?utf-8?q?COVID-19_Care=3A_How_to_Best_Apply_C?=
  208. 2021-01-27 Karl Berry <karl-at-freefriends.org> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] Future plans for Autotools
  209. 2021-01-29 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Socialists are driving the market crazy
  210. 2021-01-29 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] You really need to watch this because we just
  211. 2021-01-29 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Vaccinations and the "Green Passport"
  212. 2021-01-29 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Solarwidns hack deepens
  213. 2021-01-29 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] you are watching a repeat of the 1929 stoclk
  214. 2021-01-29 Richard Purdie <richard.purdie-at-linuxfoundation.org> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] Future plans for Autotools
  215. 2021-01-29 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] You cat the Prodcut
  216. 2021-01-29 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] You ARE the product...
  217. 2021-01-29 From: "Optimum" <optimum-at-mail.optimumemail1.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Winter storm preparation.
  218. 2021-01-30 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Lies the Social Justice Warriors Tell Us
  219. 2021-01-30 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Are you COLD? Well,
  220. 2021-01-30 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] The Left is coming for you and COVID-19 is the
  221. 2021-01-30 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Fwd: This week at Humble: Winter Store Sale,
  222. 2021-01-30 Bob Long <bob-at-oblong.com.au> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] [Gimp-user] GIMP is awful, heres why.
  223. 2021-01-30 Alexandre Prokoudine via gimp-user-list <gimp-user-list-at-gnome.org> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] [Gimp-user] GIMP is awful, heres why.
  224. 2021-01-30 Kat <Kat-at-eusamart.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] [Gimp-user] GIMP is awful, heres why.
  225. 2021-01-30 Mark Morin <mdmpsyd-at-gwi.net> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] [Gimp-user] GIMP is awful, heres why.
  226. 2021-01-30 Liam R E Quin <liam-at-holoweb.net> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] [Gimp-user] GIMP is awful, heres why.
  227. 2021-01-29 From: "Lani P. Richards via gimp-user-list" <gimp-user-list-at-gnome.org> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] [Gimp-user] GIMP *super* slow on new iMac
  228. 2021-01-30 From: =?utf-8?q?Jehan_Pag=C3=A8s_via_gimp-user-list?= Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] [Gimp-user] GIMP *super* slow on new iMac
  229. 2021-01-29 Alexandre Prokoudine via gimp-user-list <gimp-user-list-at-gnome.org> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] [Gimp-user] GIMP *super* slow on new iMac
  230. 2021-01-29 Liam R E Quin <liam-at-holoweb.net> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] [Gimp-user] GIMP *super* slow on new iMac
  231. 2021-01-30 Liam R E Quin <liam-at-holoweb.net> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] [Gimp-user] GIMP *super* slow on new iMac
  232. 2021-01-23 Rob Watson via gimp-user-list <gimp-user-list-at-gnome.org> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] [Gimp-user] Wavelet denoise
  233. 2021-01-27 Alexandre Prokoudine via gimp-user-list <gimp-user-list-at-gnome.org> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] [Gimp-user] Wavelet denoise
  234. 2021-01-28 Owen via gimp-user-list <gimp-user-list-at-gnome.org> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] [Gimp-user] How to change colors of patterns
  235. 2021-01-27 From: "Rick Strong" <rnstrong-at-primus.ca> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] [Gimp-user] Does "Emboss" filter work?
  236. 2021-01-27 Liam R E Quin <liam-at-holoweb.net> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] [Gimp-user] Does "Emboss" filter work?
  237. 2021-01-24 From: "Rick Strong" <rnstrong-at-primus.ca> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] [Gimp-user] Does "Emboss" filter work?
  238. 2021-01-30 Patrick Duehring via gimp-user-list <gimp-user-list-at-gnome.org> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] [Gimp-user] GIMP is awful, heres why.
  239. 2021-01-31 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] The value of community
  240. 2021-01-31 Gavin Smith <gavinsmith0123-at-gmail.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] Future plans for Autotools
  241. 2021-01-31 Gavin Smith <gavinsmith0123-at-gmail.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] Future plans for Autotools
  242. 2021-01-31 Gavin Smith <gavinsmith0123-at-gmail.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] Future plans for Autotools
  243. 2021-01-30 Cristian =?UTF-8?Q?Secar=C4=83?= <liste-at-secarica.ro> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] [Gimp-user] GIMP is awful, heres why.
  244. 2021-01-31 Michael Schumacher via gimp-user-list <gimp-user-list-at-gnome.org> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] [Gimp-user] My Fuzzy Select tool
  245. 2021-01-31 Johnny Rosenberg via gimp-user-list <gimp-user-list-at-gnome.org> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] [Gimp-user] GIMP is awful, heres why.
  246. 2021-01-31 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] [ Docs ] Are you COLD? Well,
  247. 2021-01-31 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] (2/18) - GC of GOOGLE - Legal, data privacy,
  248. 2021-01-29 Erik Lauritsen via artix-general <artix-general-at-artixlinux.org> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] [artix-general] Please make an antix-announce
  249. 2021-01-29 Erik Lauritsen via artix-general <artix-general-at-artixlinux.org> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] [artix-general] Please make an antix-announce
  250. 2021-01-30 From: "Canarsie Courier" <updates-at-canarsiecourier.net> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Grow Your Business For Only $25.00 Weekly
  251. 2021-01-26 From: "Wesley Peng" <wesley-at-pengfamily.de> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] perl's pulsar client
  252. 2021-01-26 From: "Wesley Peng" <wesley-at-pengfamily.de> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] perl's pulsar client
  253. 2021-01-26 Mithun Bhattacharya <mithnb-at-gmail.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] perl's pulsar client

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