MESSAGE
DATE | 2021-01-25 |
FROM | Nick Bowler
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SUBJECT | Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] Future plans for Autotools
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From hangout-bounces-at-nylxs.com Mon Jan 25 19:27:24 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: archive-at-mrbrklyn.com Delivered-To: archive-at-mrbrklyn.com Received: from www2.mrbrklyn.com (www2.mrbrklyn.com [96.57.23.82]) by mrbrklyn.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D4EC8164065; Mon, 25 Jan 2021 19:27:23 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: hangout-at-www2.mrbrklyn.com Delivered-To: hangout-at-www2.mrbrklyn.com Received: by mrbrklyn.com (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 9A3EE164065; Mon, 25 Jan 2021 19:27:07 -0500 (EST) Resent-From: Ruben Safir Resent-Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2021 19:27:07 -0500 Resent-Message-ID: <20210126002707.GD8613-at-www2.mrbrklyn.com> Resent-To: hangout-at-mrbrklyn.com X-Original-To: ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com Delivered-To: ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com Received: from lists.gnu.org (lists.gnu.org [209.51.188.17]) by mrbrklyn.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 07C3D164057 for ; Mon, 25 Jan 2021 17:51:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost ([::1]:53448 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1l4Ahw-0008Aa-9O for ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com; Mon, 25 Jan 2021 17:51:40 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:34114) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1l4AfB-0006VK-MR for autoconf-at-gnu.org; Mon, 25 Jan 2021 17:48:49 -0500 Received: from mail-yb1-xb36.google.com ([2607:f8b0:4864:20::b36]:34795) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1l4Af9-0004KI-AS for autoconf-at-gnu.org; Mon, 25 Jan 2021 17:48:49 -0500 Received: by mail-yb1-xb36.google.com with SMTP id v200so552614ybe.1 for ; Mon, 25 Jan 2021 14:48:44 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=draconx-ca.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=Z8pYq+YDRGmdUeyOtL6euTpn7j6984UFYf++6U07n18=; b=GpycLnjoWuaFa9stFeuNPYNIgXZxI+Jmt/VFyBsXnd+29fabi5DItsBNI96X5AKLmB v4iePICNVKXrpYgXKz5jOGQsp0+TxhGld4tADjNci827ia5yu0IZpqrq0t7mXdqEk1jf qdrtXSn0xG6DqwLtlckbIPrHdmNevL/owRzPdS6KfMTpoxy+d/wfCiYT0rvpRNzrNPxL jI2j2TxVBn+pTaY/lEpWVwbjMuuNRCOFs1sqDwpgM+CttUPAe28Kj+Jb6TJFKWW4rCEl zB+70e/ZMIYTMv3VgAARIQJYuoUP/HwDrAHGoPBUiZOgozuEE9aC9z8A7BtQMI7rRtwd FrPg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=Z8pYq+YDRGmdUeyOtL6euTpn7j6984UFYf++6U07n18=; b=CKV4tpXr0Lc3Jz6XOhrJpiKCE8YE3vpnuq3VzUnk0O5cSzUWzh9To6TYAmp48HjB2j FlLMGTzQYZMgdyKpKNg1sB5s9cdv8xDjfLHyOiXLoKcJbkF7lykmHSesxw3MHXMeLCq2 mXQJ9zCm/xPhI2rLwZWbTI0Q5eFnb4gu4z5C9V6arli6Fb9eNEjJ/K+EScjYnq/1DKWB 9y+3DcBonYEVigA8Xoqw9lkRX/qW4sxrk/xQL4gIArwQ7rsEzTKmw7oVFwGjheGgiGTD cD82Qn/p8o41IvfuSbbBqz5DGdrYnJPFWmdAkZt3EOzjcyYkrpA50xf3ZSrDXr15uVkp QyLA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530RJSQi3EMN755iLn96c7VjjVbHt5HzOC/QHdny/OZ8nDO4Ttrp 5E2xnVYL4q+fQwLPL6230oVlh5hQC/0c7d6JcagCBA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzo63VGiNcRDXFtBHFZvK49xl3+aCXH0fzJ5bmypypNmENt6wIKVcS/dlBLAmiLl87OeKde/Xp10vI4b7rr/Ys= X-Received: by 2002:a25:23d5:: with SMTP id j204mr3925993ybj.509.1611614924300; Mon, 25 Jan 2021 14:48:44 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 2002:a25:b912:0:0:0:0:0 with HTTP; Mon, 25 Jan 2021 14:48:43 -0800 (PST) X-Originating-IP: [24.53.240.163] In-Reply-To: References: <87zh12osjk.fsf-at-tromey.com> <87eei97w7a.fsf-at-tromey.com> <25f02fe5254319a29cde8215893450fc0e0850f7.camel-at-gnu.org> From: Nick Bowler Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2021 17:48:43 -0500 Message-ID: To: John Calcote Received-SPF: none client-ip=2607:f8b0:4864:20::b36; envelope-from=nbowler-at-draconx.ca; helo=mail-yb1-xb36.google.com X-Spam_score_int: -18 X-Spam_score: -1.9 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.9 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: autoconf-at-gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list Cc: Autoconf , Zack Weinberg Subject: Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] Future plans for Autotools X-BeenThere: hangout-at-nylxs.com List-Id: NYLXS Tech Talk and Politics List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: hangout-bounces-at-nylxs.com Sender: "Hangout"
On 2021-01-25, John Calcote wrote: > On Mon, Jan 25, 2021 at 12:26 PM Nick Bowler wrote: >> On 2021-01-25, Zack Weinberg wrote: >> > I'm not at all familiar with Automake's internals, but the reason I >> > suggested taking advantage of GNU make extensions was the potential >> > for _complexity_ reduction of the generated Makefile, not performance. >> > For instance, this generated rule from one of my other projects [...] >> >> To be honest if Automake-generated Makefile.in files only worked >> for users with, say, sufficiently modern versions of GNU Make, I'm >> not sure there would be any point in using Automake. > > I'm not sure I see your point Nick. Why use Automake? Because I'd much > rather write (and maintain) two lines of automake code than even a single > page of GNU make code.
I'm trying to say that if you are going to force users to use GNU make anyway then then I think most if not all of Automake's features would be more effectively implemented by one or more "include"-able GNU make snippets rather than using a standalone perl-based preprocessor stage like Automake that introduces its own unique set of problems.
This approach is very typically used in the BSD world, where the build environment is centered around one specific make implementation and everyone shares the same set of common build recipes.
But for me, I want my packages to be widely portable and out-of-the-box compatibility with default "make" implementations, to the greatest extent possible, on a wide variety of real-world platforms is important. I personally don't want to ask users of non-GNU systems to install GNU make just because the Makefile would be slightly easier to write. Today, I use Automake to help me achieve this goal. If a new version of Automake were to make that impossible, because its own rules will not run on other makes, then I suppose I would not be using that version.
This doesn't mean everything needs to work _perfectly_ on every make, but I expect at least "./configure --whatever-options && make install" to work everywhere, and for incremental rebuilds to work contingent on functional dependency tracking (which in practice is almost everywhere).
Cheers, Nick _______________________________________________ Hangout mailing list Hangout-at-nylxs.com http://lists.mrbrklyn.com/mailman/listinfo/hangout
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