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DATE 2004-12-01

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MESSAGE
DATE 2004-12-30
FROM From: "Inker, Evan"
SUBJECT Subject: [hangout] 'Free' Software Isn't Free (Article)
From owner-hangouts-destenys-at-mrbrklyn.com Thu Dec 30 15:39:23 2004
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From: "Inker, Evan"
To: hangout-at-nylxs.com
Subject: [hangout] 'Free' Software Isn't Free (Article)
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After reading this article and then retching uncontrollably for the next 10
minutes, I wanted to share one highly educated idiots IT Viewpoints on "Open
Source software". Mind you, The author's Bio follows the article and is
included for your information....

My favorite quotes as well as my responses follow:

" The American IT industry predominantly uses commercial licenses for its
software and would unquestionably be harmed by state preferences for
non-commercial licenses. In addition, state IT workers who have developed
skills in commercial software from Oracle, Microsoft, and IBM could face
obsolescence and replacement unless states dedicate new dollars for worker
retraining."

OK...so let's continue on the cycle of proprietary locked-down insecure
software due to the fact "you believe" that State IT Workers would need
re-training and possibly be outsourced to Free Software educated IT
Workers...First of all, you give little or no credit to State IT Workers as
to their "comprehension" and/or re-training. You cite the '"plight of the
Poor Wretched Untrainable IT Worker" but seriously neglect the State's cost
for proprietary systems which eat up $$$ in TCO, Security (let's not forget
all those wonderful little security holes like VB Script, IIS, and ever
popular hackable Outlook mail client; last but not least spyware and viruses
which run rampant on Windows based systems) and forced software
upgrades/maintenance. From your perspective, it's fine for the State to pass
these costs along to the local citizens as long as your maintain your Locked
Down Antiquated Software Security Nightmare called "Proprietary Commercial
Software".

" One possible appeal of open source licensing is that programmers can
freely modify and customize the program to suit their own purposes. But when
a programmer employed in a state agency changes just a few lines of code, he
voids any quality and support guarantees from the vendors who initially
provided the software. By modifying the software, the state shoulders the
burden of software support. While the state might be able to purchase
support contracts for its modified software, those added costs are further
proof the free software isn't free."

Wrong again....Changing or modifying a program does not necessarily "voids
any quality and support guarantees from the vendors who initially provided
the software" unless the programmer doing the modification is ill-equipped
to be a programmer. Software development aka coding, programming etc.
whether in C++, Java, Python etc has basic tenets and rules which translate
to both Free and Proprietary Software. Maybe the emphasis here should be
more on correcting the shoddy habit of creating software developers in 6-8
courses who have little or no computer experience whatsoever. IT is one
field where accurate technical proficiency is not a luxury but a necessary
pre-requisite to getting the job down correctly as opposed to turning out
crappy sub-standard software (proprietary or otherwise).



THE HEARTLAND INSTITUTE
19 South LaSalle Street #903
Chicago, IL 60603
phone 312/377-4000 * fax 312/377-5000
http://www.heartland.org

_____


'Free' Software Isn't Free



Author: Steve DelBianco
Published: The Heartland Institute 01/01/2005



States facing budget shortfalls are poring over government management and
purchasing practices in search of any sort of savings. At the same time, a
worldwide movement for "free and open software" falsely promises something
for nothing plus the ability to modify code and share changes among users.

State legislators attracted to the free software flame are likely to get
burned if preference legislation opens a dangerous back door to purchasing
safeguards and ends up costing more than commercial software alternatives.

It's not unusual for state legislatures to implement public policy choices
with laws affecting state purchases of information technology (IT) products
and services. For example, many states have bidding rules that confer
advantages to in-state businesses, and some have passed increased security
standards in the wake of cyberterrorism threats.

However, even well-intentioned legislation can produce unpredictable and
undesirable results when it affects complex software decisions made at the
state agency and departmental level. Moreover, taking the risk of unintended
consequences isn't justifiable when state IT managers are already, on their
own, making the very choices legislatures seek to enforce.


Many Definitions of "Open Source"

Open source is widely used as an umbrella term for more than 85 different
software license agreements that variously allow access to the source code,
or recipe, for the program. However, the term "open source" is neither
precise nor instructive, since these licenses vary greatly in their terms,
and some are actually quite restrictive when it comes to modifying and
redistributing software.

Cost-sensitive state managers are attracted to "free software" on the
promise of saving money and avoiding the procurement processes that govern
proposals and purchasing decisions. While initially appealing, free software
has costs and risks that should be understood when considering legislation
that favors its use.

With all software, the price of acquisition is just the first cost incurred
over the life cycle of an application. IT managers know to expect additional
upfront costs for training, data conversion, and integration, plus several
years of ongoing costs for maintenance, upgrades, and support. This concept
is well understood as "total cost of ownership (TCO)." Within the context of
TCO, an initial cost advantage for free software can be offset by higher
life cycle costs.


Modify at Your Own Risk

One possible appeal of open source licensing is that programmers can freely
modify and customize the program to suit their own purposes. But when a
programmer employed in a state agency changes just a few lines of code, he
voids any quality and support guarantees from the vendors who initially
provided the software. By modifying the software, the state shoulders the
burden of software support. While the state might be able to purchase
support contracts for its modified software, those added costs are further
proof the free software isn't free.

The American IT industry predominantly uses commercial licenses for its
software and would unquestionably be harmed by state preferences for
non-commercial licenses. In addition, state IT workers who have developed
skills in commercial software from Oracle, Microsoft, and IBM could face
obsolescence and replacement unless states dedicate new dollars for worker
retraining.

Legislative preferences also can hamper state IT directors, who are charged
with implementing multi-year comprehensive IT strategies across government
agencies. They also are struggling to deploy e-government solutions that are
accessible and secure for citizens and business users. To execute these
long-term IT plans, states have to keep a tight rein on IT purchasing
decisions made by agencies. But state mandates for open source licensed
software could encourage decentralized purchasing decisions, without regard
for a state's broader IT strategy.

Finally, in an era of viruses, worms, and spyware, IT security has never
been more important. State IT directors must be confident that any software
deployed in state government will be adequately protected from threats to
security and information privacy. Software that's downloaded and deployed
without state approval could compromise the security of sensitive citizen
information such as Social Security numbers or health records.

State legislators should exercise their oversight role to get the best value
for their state's software dollars, but they must also maintain an open and
competitive environment so that all software and services are scrutinized
according to rules developed through decades of experience. Moreover, state
IT managers are in the best position to evaluate which technologies and
licensing methods fit with specific agency needs and plans. And businesses
serving the states are already offering and supporting software with a
variety of licensing terms, including open source.

Legislative preferences for open source licensing will only limit choice and
restrict competition in what is already an intensely competitive market.

_____

Steve DelBianco represents the Association for Competitive Technology and
the NetChoice Coalition. He is also private-sector chair of the Competition
Subcommittee of the American Legislative Exchange Council's
Telecommunications and Information Technology Task Force. This article is
adapted from "No Such Thing as Free Software," published in ALEC Policy
Forum: Jeffersonian Principles in Action, Spring 2004.






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Message




After
reading this article and then retching uncontrollably for the next 10 minutes,
I wanted to share one highly educated idiots IT Viewpoints on "Open Source
software". Mind you, The author's Bio follows the article and is included for
your information....


My favorite quotes as well as my
responses follow:


" The American IT industry predominantly uses commercial licenses for its
software and would unquestionably be harmed by state preferences for
non-commercial licenses. In addition, state IT workers who have developed
skills in commercial software from Oracle, Microsoft, and IBM could face
obsolescence and replacement unless states dedicate new dollars for worker
retraining."


OK...so let's continue on the cycle of proprietary locked-down insecure
software due to the fact "you believe" that State IT Workers
would need re-training and possibly be outsourced to Free Software
educated IT Workers...First of all, you give little or no credit to State IT
Workers as to their "comprehension" and/or re-training. You cite the '"plight
of the Poor Wretched Untrainable IT Worker" but seriously neglect the State's
cost for proprietary systems which eat up $$$ in TCO, Security (let's not
forget all those wonderful little security holes like VB Script, IIS, and ever
popular hackable Outlook mail client; last but not least spyware and viruses
which run rampant on Windows based systems) and forced software
upgrades/maintenance. From your perspective, it's fine for the State to pass
these costs along to the local citizens as long as your maintain your Locked
Down Antiquated Software Security Nightmare called "Proprietary Commercial
Software".


" One possible appeal of open source licensing is that programmers can
freely modify and customize the program to suit their own purposes. But when a
programmer employed in a state agency changes just a few lines of code, he
voids any quality and support guarantees from the vendors who initially
provided the software. By modifying the software, the state shoulders the
burden of software support. While the state might be able to purchase support
contracts for its modified software, those added costs are further proof the
free software isn't free."


Wrong again....Changing or modifying a program does not necessarily "voids
any quality and support guarantees from the vendors who initially provided the
software" unless the programmer doing the modification is ill-equipped to be a
programmer. Software development aka coding, programming etc. whether in C++,
Java, Python etc has basic tenets and rules which translate to both Free and
Proprietary Software. Maybe the emphasis here should be more on correcting the
shoddy habit of creating software developers in 6-8 courses who have
little or no computer experience whatsoever. IT is one field where
accurate technical proficiency is not a luxury but a necessary pre-requisite
to getting the job down correctly as opposed to turning out crappy
sub-standard software (proprietary or otherwise).


 


THE HEARTLAND INSTITUTE
19 South LaSalle Street #903
Chicago,
IL 60603
phone 312/377-4000 · fax
312/377-5000
http://www.heartland.org







'Free' Software Isn't
Free



Author: Steve DelBianco
Published: The Heartland
Institute 01/01/2005


States facing budget shortfalls are poring over government management and
purchasing practices in search of any sort of savings. At the same time, a
worldwide movement for "free and open software" falsely promises something for
nothing plus the ability to modify code and share changes among users.


State legislators attracted to the free software flame are likely to get
burned if preference legislation opens a dangerous back door to purchasing
safeguards and ends up costing more than commercial software alternatives.


It's not unusual for state legislatures to implement public policy choices
with laws affecting state purchases of information technology (IT) products
and services. For example, many states have bidding rules that confer
advantages to in-state businesses, and some have passed increased security
standards in the wake of cyberterrorism threats.


However, even well-intentioned legislation can produce unpredictable and
undesirable results when it affects complex software decisions made at the
state agency and departmental level. Moreover, taking the risk of unintended
consequences isn't justifiable when state IT managers are already, on their
own, making the very choices legislatures seek to enforce.



Many Definitions of "Open Source"


Open source is widely used as an umbrella term for more than 85 different
software license agreements that variously allow access to the source code, or
recipe, for the program. However, the term "open source" is neither precise
nor instructive, since these licenses vary greatly in their terms, and some
are actually quite restrictive when it comes to modifying and redistributing
software.


Cost-sensitive state managers are attracted to "free software" on the
promise of saving money and avoiding the procurement processes that govern
proposals and purchasing decisions. While initially appealing, free software
has costs and risks that should be understood when considering legislation
that favors its use.


With all software, the price of acquisition is just the first cost incurred
over the life cycle of an application. IT managers know to expect additional
upfront costs for training, data conversion, and integration, plus several
years of ongoing costs for maintenance, upgrades, and support. This concept is
well understood as "total cost of ownership (TCO)." Within the context of TCO,
an initial cost advantage for free software can be offset by higher life cycle
costs.



Modify at Your Own Risk


One possible appeal of open source licensing is that programmers can freely
modify and customize the program to suit their own purposes. But when a
programmer employed in a state agency changes just a few lines of code, he
voids any quality and support guarantees from the vendors who initially
provided the software. By modifying the software, the state shoulders the
burden of software support. While the state might be able to purchase support
contracts for its modified software, those added costs are further proof the
free software isn't free.


The American IT industry predominantly uses commercial licenses for its
software and would unquestionably be harmed by state preferences for
non-commercial licenses. In addition, state IT workers who have developed
skills in commercial software from Oracle, Microsoft, and IBM could face
obsolescence and replacement unless states dedicate new dollars for worker
retraining.


Legislative preferences also can hamper state IT directors, who are charged
with implementing multi-year comprehensive IT strategies across government
agencies. They also are struggling to deploy e-government solutions that are
accessible and secure for citizens and business users. To execute these
long-term IT plans, states have to keep a tight rein on IT purchasing
decisions made by agencies. But state mandates for open source licensed
software could encourage decentralized purchasing decisions, without regard
for a state's broader IT strategy.


Finally, in an era of viruses, worms, and spyware, IT security has never
been more important. State IT directors must be confident that any software
deployed in state government will be adequately protected from threats to
security and information privacy. Software that's downloaded and deployed
without state approval could compromise the security of sensitive citizen
information such as Social Security numbers or health records.


State legislators should exercise their oversight role to get the best
value for their state's software dollars, but they must also maintain an open
and competitive environment so that all software and services are scrutinized
according to rules developed through decades of experience. Moreover, state IT
managers are in the best position to evaluate which technologies and licensing
methods fit with specific agency needs and plans. And businesses serving the
states are already offering and supporting software with a variety of
licensing terms, including open source.


Legislative preferences for open source licensing will only limit choice
and restrict competition in what is already an intensely competitive
market.





Steve DelBianco represents the Association for Competitive Technology
and the NetChoice Coalition. He is also private-sector chair of the
Competition Subcommittee of the American Legislative Exchange Council's
Telecommunications and Information Technology Task Force. This article is
adapted from "No Such Thing as Free Software," published in A
LEC Policy
Forum: Jeffersonian Principles in Action, Spring 2004.


 






****************************************************************************

This message contains confidential information and is intended only

for the individual or entity named. If you are not the named addressee

you should not disseminate, distribute or copy this e-mail.

Please notify the sender immediately by e-mail if you have received

this e-mail by mistake and delete this e-mail from your system.

E-mail transmission cannot be guaranteed to be secure or error-free

as information could be intercepted, corrupted, lost, destroyed, arrive

late or incomplete, or contain viruses. The sender therefore does not

accept liability for any errors or omissions in the contents of this

message which arise as a result of e-mail transmission.

If verification is required please request a hard-copy version.

This message is provided for informational purposes and should not

be construed as an invitation or offer to buy or sell any securities or

related financial instruments.

GAM operates in many jurisdictions and is

regulated or licensed in those jurisdictions as required.

****************************************************************************




------_=_NextPart_001_01C4EEAF.8958EB50--
____________________________
NYLXS: New Yorker Free Software Users Scene
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NYLXS is a trademark of NYLXS, Inc

  1. 2004-12-30 From: "Inker, Evan" <EInker-at-gam.com> Subject: [hangout] 'Free' Software Isn't Free (Article)
  2. 2004-12-30 From: "Inker, Evan" <EInker-at-gam.com> Subject: [hangout] Suffering the Swings and Arrows of Outrageous Customer Service!
  3. 2004-12-30 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [hangout] In lui of a board meeting, some suggestions
  4. 2004-12-30 From: "Inker, Evan" <EInker-at-gam.com> Subject: [hangout] Dual-booting multiple Linux distros
  5. 2004-12-29 Ruben Safir Secretary NYLXS <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [hangout] NYLXS: Non-profit Status
  6. 2004-12-29 Ruben Safir Secretary NYLXS <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [hangout] [googlealerts-noreply-at-google.com: Google Alert - Linux]
  7. 2004-12-28 From: "Steve Milo" <slavik914-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [hangout] On the heels of the FireFox removal thing.
  8. 2004-12-28 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [hangout] Fw: Re: [NMLUG] Microsoft still up to tricks
  9. 2004-12-28 Billy <billy-at-dadadada.net> Re: [hangout] Fw: Re: [NMLUG] Microsoft still up to tricks
  10. 2004-12-28 From: "Steve Milo" <slavik914-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [hangout] Fw: Re: [NMLUG] Microsoft still up to tricks
  11. 2004-12-28 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [hangout] A Moment to Pause
  12. 2004-12-27 From: "Inker, Evan" <EInker-at-gam.com> Subject: [hangout] Steinbeck's hometown to close libraries
  13. 2004-12-27 From: "Inker, Evan" <EInker-at-gam.com> Subject: [hangout] Sprucing up open source's GPL foundation
  14. 2004-12-26 Ruben Safir Secretary NYLXS <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [hangout] Technite
  15. 2004-12-25 From: "Steve Milo" <slavik914-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [hangout] Technite
  16. 2004-12-25 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [hangout] jobs3
  17. 2004-12-25 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [hangout] Jobs2
  18. 2004-12-25 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [hangout] Jobs
  19. 2004-12-25 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [hangout] Free Software in Primary School Education
  20. 2004-12-23 Ruben Safir Secretary NYLXS <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [hangout] supplies
  21. 2004-12-23 From: "rc" <ray-pub-at-rcn.com> RE: [hangout] supplies
  22. 2004-12-23 Ruben Safir Secretary NYLXS <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [hangout] supplies
  23. 2004-12-23 From: "rc" <ray-pub-at-rcn.com> Subject: [hangout] supplies
  24. 2004-12-23 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [hangout] Lost works from the web
  25. 2004-12-23 Ron Guerin <ron-at-vnetworx.net> Re: [hangout] unsubscribe
  26. 2004-12-23 Contrarian <adrba-at-nyct.net> Re: [hangout] unsubscribe
  27. 2004-12-22 From: "Steve Milo" <slavik914-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [hangout] Meeting today?
  28. 2004-12-21 Ruben Safir Secretary NYLXS <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [hangout] [meissner-at-suse.de: [suse-security-announce] SUSE Security Announcement: various kernel problems (SUSE-SA:2004:044)]
  29. 2004-12-21 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [hangout] Urgent! I need an answer for the meeting ASAP.
  30. 2004-12-21 From: "Steve Milo" <slavik914-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [hangout] Urgent! I need an answer for the meeting ASAP.
  31. 2004-12-21 From: "Steve Milo" <slavik914-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [hangout] Board Meeting?
  32. 2004-12-20 mlr52 <mlr52-at-michaellrichardson.com> Subject: [hangout] Fwd: [wwwac] NY area high school art/design/media teacher contacts for workshop
  33. 2004-12-19 Evan Inker <einker-at-yahoo.com> Subject: [hangout] Fwd: Sunday Tech Night
  34. 2004-12-19 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [hangout] Re: I would like to invite you to be aguest on my show. When you
  35. 2004-12-19 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [hangout] KDE
  36. 2004-12-19 Steve Lebetkin <SteveL-at-primagency.com> Subject: [hangout] KDE
  37. 2004-12-19 Contrarian <adrba-at-nyct.net> Re: [hangout] Desktop FS System Software
  38. 2004-12-18 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [hangout] Desktop FS System Software
  39. 2004-12-18 Ruben Safir Secretary NYLXS <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [hangout] [bruce.lai-at-council.nyc.ny.us: Upcoming hearings by the New York City Council's Committee on Technology in Government (as of 12.17.04).]
  40. 2004-12-17 From: "Steve Milo" <slavik914-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [hangout] Way too Weird!!!!
  41. 2004-12-16 From: "Inker, Evan" <EInker-at-gam.com> Subject: [hangout] Way too Weird!!!!
  42. 2004-12-15 From: "Inker, Evan" <EInker-at-gam.com> Subject: [hangout] Lawsuit filed to prohibit copyright protection of software
  43. 2004-12-15 Mike Richardson - NYLXS PRESIDENT <miker-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [hangout] Priorities for PR in Your New Year Plans (fwd)
  44. 2004-12-15 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [hangout] Improving Job Market and the Linux Journal
  45. 2004-12-15 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [hangout] Improving Job Market and the Linux Journal
  46. 2004-12-14 Michael Richardson <MRichardson-at-abc.state.ny.us> Subject: [hangout] FW: [Politics] retired
  47. 2004-12-14 Michael Richardson <MRichardson-at-abc.state.ny.us> Subject: [hangout] FW: How smart is your right foot?
  48. 2004-12-13 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [hangout] Jobs Board
  49. 2004-12-13 wjc <wjc-at-optonline.net> Subject: [hangout] rpmfind.net
  50. 2004-12-12 Mike Richardson - NYLXS PRESIDENT <miker-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [hangout] cross posting.
  51. 2004-12-12 Adam Kosmin <akosmin-at-nyc.rr.com> Re: [hangout] Voting (was:Re: why we need Free Software voting machines)
  52. 2004-12-12 Contrarian <adrba-at-nyct.net> Re: [hangout] Great Article: Free as in Freedom - Part 1
  53. 2004-12-12 Contrarian <adrba-at-nyct.net> Re: [hangout] Voting (was:Re: why we need Free Software voting
  54. 2004-12-12 Contrarian <adrba-at-nyct.net> Re: [hangout] Voting (was:Re: why we need Free Software voting
  55. 2004-12-12 Contrarian <adrba-at-nyct.net> Re: [hangout] Voting (was:Re: why we need Free Software voting
  56. 2004-12-12 Contrarian <adrba-at-nyct.net> Re: [hangout] Voting (was:Re: why we need Free Software voting
  57. 2004-12-12 Contrarian <adrba-at-nyct.net> Subject: [hangout] Re: why we need Free Software voting machines
  58. 2004-12-11 Ruben Safir Secretary NYLXS <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [hangout] DSL or Broadband
  59. 2004-12-11 Adam Kosmin <akosmin-at-nyc.rr.com> Subject: [hangout] Why we need Free Software voting machines
  60. 2004-12-11 Mike Richardson - NYLXS PRESIDENT <miker-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [hangout] DSL or Broadband
  61. 2004-12-10 Steve Lebetkin <SteveL-at-primagency.com> Subject: [hangout] paging Paul Robert Marino
  62. 2004-12-10 Adam Kosmin <akosmin-at-nyc.rr.com> Subject: [hangout] Great Article: Free as in Freedom - Part 1
  63. 2004-12-10 Ruben Safir Secretary NYLXS <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [hangout] Re: Getting back to you.
  64. 2004-12-10 Ruben Safir Secretary NYLXS <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [hangout] Re: Linux class questions
  65. 2004-12-09 From: "Inker, Evan" <EInker-at-gam.com> Subject: [hangout] Researchers warn laptop users of infertility risk
  66. 2004-12-09 Ruben Safir Secretary NYLXS <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [hangout] Board meeting
  67. 2004-12-09 Michael Richardson <MRichardson-at-abc.state.ny.us> Subject: [hangout] Board meeting
  68. 2004-12-09 From: "Inker, Evan" <EInker-at-gam.com> RE: [hangout] Introducing you to a new Linux Journal sister publi
  69. 2004-12-09 Michael Richardson <MRichardson-at-abc.state.ny.us> RE: [hangout] Introducing you to a new Linux Journal sister publi
  70. 2004-12-09 Contrarian <adrba-at-nyct.net> Re: [hangout] NYC gets no respect...
  71. 2004-12-09 Ruben Safir Secretary NYLXS <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [hangout] Introducing you to a new Linux Journal sister publication
  72. 2004-12-09 Contrarian <adrba-at-nyct.net> Re: [hangout] A Chanuka Gift from the City of New York
  73. 2004-12-08 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [hangout] A Chanuka Gift from the City of New York
  74. 2004-12-08 Billy <billy-at-dadadada.net> Re: [hangout] A Chanuka Gift from the City of New York
  75. 2004-12-08 Ruben Safir Secretary NYLXS <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [hangout] A Chanuka Gift from the City of New York
  76. 2004-12-08 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [hangout] NYC gets no respect...
  77. 2004-12-08 From: "rc" <ray-pub-at-rcn.com> RE: [hangout] Open House CONGRADS!!!
  78. 2004-12-08 Ruben Safir Secretary NYLXS <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [hangout] [ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com: [nylxs-announce] GNU/Linux Scene Calender for Today]
  79. 2004-12-07 Adam Kosmin <akosmin-at-nyc.rr.com> Re: [hangout] Open House CONGRADS!!!
  80. 2004-12-07 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [hangout] Leads: Student Club
  81. 2004-12-07 Contrarian <adrba-at-nyct.net> Re: [hangout] Open House CONGRADS!!!
  82. 2004-12-07 Ruben Safir Secretary NYLXS <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [hangout] Open House CONGRADS!!!
  83. 2004-12-07 From: "Inker, Evan" <EInker-at-gam.com> RE: [hangout] Open House CONGRADS!!!
  84. 2004-12-07 From: "rc" <ray-pub-at-rcn.com> RE: [hangout] Open House CONGRADS!!!
  85. 2004-12-07 Ruben Safir Secretary NYLXS <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [hangout] Open House CONGRADS!!!
  86. 2004-12-07 From: "Inker, Evan" <EInker-at-gam.com> RE: [hangout] Open House CONGRADS!!!
  87. 2004-12-07 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [hangout] Open House CONGRADS!!!
  88. 2004-12-06 From: "Ruben I Safir - Secretary NYLXS" <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [hangout] Paging David Sugar
  89. 2004-12-06 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [hangout] Help with Open House set up
  90. 2004-12-06 Contrarian <adrba-at-nyct.net> Re: [hangout] [nylxs-announce] GNU/Linux Scene Calender for Today
  91. 2004-12-06 Ruben Safir Secretary NYLXS <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [hangout] [nylxs-announce] GNU/Linux Scene Calender for Today
  92. 2004-12-05 Contrarian <adrba-at-nyct.net> Re: [hangout] Open House and Classes Drive
  93. 2004-12-05 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [hangout] Novel Review
  94. 2004-12-04 swd <sderrick-at-optonline.net> Re: [hangout] What would the definition of enterprise
  95. 2004-12-04 Ron Guerin <ron-at-vnetworx.net> Re: [hangout] What would the definition of enterprise level
  96. 2004-12-03 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [hangout] Holography and Computers
  97. 2004-12-03 Ruben Safir Secretary NYLXS <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [hangout] NYLXS Radio Show
  98. 2004-12-03 Contrarian <adrba-at-nyct.net> Subject: [hangout] I have an announcement message,
  99. 2004-12-03 Contrarian <adrba-at-nyct.net> Re: [hangout] Open House and Classes Drive
  100. 2004-12-03 Contrarian <adrba-at-nyct.net> Re: [hangout] Open House and Classes Drive
  101. 2004-12-03 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [hangout] Open House and Classes Drive
  102. 2004-12-02 Contrarian <adrba-at-nyct.net> Re: [hangout] Open House and Classes Drive
  103. 2004-12-02 Contrarian <adrba-at-nyct.net> Re: [hangout] Open House and Classes Drive
  104. 2004-12-02 Ruben Safir Secretary NYLXS <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [hangout] Open House and Classes Drive
  105. 2004-12-02 From: "Steve Milo" <slavik914-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [hangout] Open House and Classes Drive
  106. 2004-12-02 Ruben Safir Secretary NYLXS <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [hangout] Open House and Classes Drive
  107. 2004-12-02 Contrarian <adrba-at-nyct.net> Re: [hangout] New Website Advice
  108. 2004-12-02 Contrarian <adrba-at-nyct.net> Subject: [hangout] leafleting report
  109. 2004-12-02 Ruben Safir Secretary NYLXS <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [hangout] Getting New Volunteers
  110. 2004-12-02 Ruben Safir Secretary NYLXS <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [hangout] Kill all the Spammers
  111. 2004-12-02 Adam Kosmin <akosmin-at-nyc.rr.com> Re: [hangout] What would the definition of enterprise level computing be?
  112. 2004-12-02 Adam Kosmin <akosmin-at-nyc.rr.com> Re: [hangout] need car
  113. 2004-12-02 Ruben Safir Secretary NYLXS <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [hangout] mp3 editing
  114. 2004-12-01 Ruben Safir Secretary NYLXS <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [hangout] Meeting Tomorrow Morning
  115. 2004-12-01 Mike Richardson - NYLXS PRESIDENT <miker-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [hangout] Meeting Tomorrow Morning
  116. 2004-12-01 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [hangout] GNU/Linux gains in data warehousing
  117. 2004-12-01 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [hangout] Meeting Tomorrow Morning
  118. 2004-12-01 From: "Steve Milo" <slavik914-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [hangout] What would the definition of enterprise level computing be?
  119. 2004-12-01 Ruben Safir Secretary NYLXS <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [hangout] [bruce.lai-at-council.nyc.ny.us: Upcoming Hearings by the Committee on Technology in Government of the New York City Council (as of Nov. 30, 2004)
  120. 2004-12-01 Contrarian <adrba-at-nyct.net> Re: [hangout] [Fwd: [FCNYC] Computer ONLY for non-profit!!!] (fwd)

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