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DATE 2002-11-01

HANGOUT

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Key: Value:

Key: Value:

MESSAGE
DATE 2002-11-05
FROM Ruben Safir
SUBJECT Re: [hangout]

No Trouble


Ruben

On Tue, Nov 05, 2002 at 03:41:23PM -0500, Joe Grastara wrote:
>
> Ruben,
>
> Just wanted to give you a heads up, I'm not going to be able to make it
> to the installfest until about 7:30 depending on how long it takes me
> to get there.
>
> -Joe
>
> On Monday, November 4, 2002, at 07:43 PM, Ruben I Safir wrote:
>
> >
> >Friday's ruling in U.S. v. Microsoft is not good news for free
> >software, according to Columbia Law School Professor Eben Moglen,
> >general counsel to the Free Software Foundation. In an interview with
> >Linux and Main, Moglen reacted to the ruling, pointed out how it can
> >hurt free software -- and what the FSF hopes to be able to do about it
> >-- and even gave a glimpse into how its having cleared the decks for
> >proprietary protocols and "trusted computing" is likely to figure into
> >the next major version of the General Public License.
> >
> >The questions are in bold face; Moglen's answers are in plain text.
> >Emphasis is added based on Moglen's verbal emphasis in the interview.
> >
> >What's your view of the ruling?
> >
> >It's not at all helpful to the free software movement or to the larger
> >community of users and developers. Not helpful because the
> >government's settlement with Microsoft contains serious flaws which
> >the Free Software Foundation pointed out to the Justice Department and
> >to the District Court in our filing under the Tunney Act; Judge
> >[Colleen] Kollar-Kotelly's order does not disturb those aspects of the
> >settlement agreement of which we disapprove. Not helpful because her
> >remedies or opinion and order in the litigating states' cases also
> >make no provision for the restoration of competition in the operating
> >systems market. We are, after all, as a community the competitor to
> >the monopoly.
> >
> >Judge Kollar-Kotelly makes clear in her opinion that she understands
> >that the United States government argued that Microsoft was illegally
> >maintaining a monopoly in the operating systems market. She doesn't
> >disagree with that. She states in her opinion, however, that for
> >whatever reason, she does not regard free software -- GNU/Linux and
> >all of its companion applications and programs -- as a viable
> >competitor; she repeats statements to that effect from Judge [Thomas
> >Penfield] Jackson's findings of fact, and we agree that those are
> >Judge Jackson's findings of fact, but the world has clarified somewhat
> >since Judge Jackson made those statements. And we think Judge
> >Kollar-Kotelly might have taken account of the changes in the market.
> >
> >We also think at the Free Software Foundation that there are some
> >disquieting aspects of what Judge Kollar-Kotelly has done in her
> >comments on parts of the settlement agreement with the Justice
> >Department and Microsoft. We are very concerned that the phrasing of
> >the settlement agreement, as we pointed out in our submission to the
> >Justice Department, we're very concerned that the release of API
> >information, which is absolutely crucial to free software developers,
> >has been organized by Microsoft in the settlement so that free
> >software developers cannot profit from it. And this, we fear, is made
> >yet more likely by some of the statements in Judge Kollar-Kotelly's
> >opinion, which affirms that Microsoft may, for example, make anything
> >which is in Microsoft's opinion a security or virus-avoidance or
> >e-commerce-protecting or encryption aspect of software not subject to
> >API release. This will in effect permit Microsoft to conceal or to
> >limit access to unfree terms to all the APIs conc!
> > erned with e-commerce. We think Judge Kollar-Kotelly and the Justice
> >Department have created an enormous loophole.
> >
> >It seems that it might be worse than the 1995 consent decree. Is that
> >your view?
> >
> >I certainly agree with you that at its worst it is worse than the
> >consent decree of 1995. There is nothing in this settlement agreement
> >of the Justice Department which addresses what we believe is the
> >central matter for the restoration of competition in the market, which
> >is to ensure that free software developers may write their own code to
> >implement any protocols and to provide services across any application
> >program interface that Windows applications may make use of. That is,
> >for the purpose of making competition in the O.S. market, the most
> >important thing. Whatever a Windows application program uses in order
> >to secure operating system services across any API or using any
> >communications protocol, it has to be the right of free software
> >developers to write their own code to serve across that interface. If
> >that is done, if for example WINE and X and GNU/Linux can exist and
> >can provide all those services, then there is de facto competition in
> >the O.S. market. Because any ap!
> > plication written for the Windows platform may run unmodified on a
> >free software platform. The central item is the API disclosure; that
> >was a central part of the government's case. Judge Jackson found that
> >it was the subject of the illegal maintenance of monopoly by
> >Microsoft, yet we have here an order now supported by Judge
> >Kollar-Kotelly's opinion which does nothing to ensure competition in
> >that domain. There are too many loopholes and too many weaknesses in
> >the settlement agreement.
> >
> >We made absolutely clear to the Justice Department and to the District
> >Court what needed to be done, in a very precise way, in order to close
> >those loopholes. And we regret very much that that has not happened.
> >
> >I would like to note that the only modification that Judge
> >Kollar-Kotelly has made in the government's proposed orders and in the
> >settlement agreement is to provide for continuing unilateral
> >supervisory jurisdiction by the District Court. The one thing that
> >Judge Kollar-Kotelly has been interested in in these opinions, beyond
> >the government and Microsoft, is securing her own power to intervene.
> >And I have to take that as a limited positive sign, that it will be
> >possible for us to address the District Court and to show her why in
> >practice this settlement agreement will not have the effect of the
> >pro-competitive gains that the Justice Department told her that she
> >could expect.
> >
> >In the interim there have been plans put forth by Microsoft for things
> >called "Palladium" and "trusted computing." Couldn't these effectively
> >lock out free software?
> >
> >We regard "trusted computing" and all the various forms of
> >protected-boot, closed hardware, whether adopted by industry
> >consensus, or by legislative mandate, as in Sen. Hollings's
> >legislation presently called "CBDTPA," as an absolute threat to the
> >existence of free software. We regard Microsoft's interest in those
> >subjects as plainly informed by the opportunities it presents to
> >exclude from the consumer market its only viable competitor. There is
> >no question that "trusted computing" has to be taken seriously as a
> >profound threat to the free software ecology.
> >
> >We point out to our friends in the hardware business, all the time,
> >the difficulties that this presents, not just to us but to them, and
> >we believe that within limits they have been entirely understanding of
> >our common concerns. Accordingly, with respect to
> >government-mandatedso-called "trusted computing" -- the pro-Disney
> >legislation sponsored by Sen. Hollings, for example -- IBM and
> >Hewlett-Packard have been extremely cooperative with the free software
> >movement, and with the Free Software Foundation in particular, in
> >making our point of view clear and understandable by government.
> >
> >I am speaking to the annual convention of the Business Software
> >Alliance on the 14th of November in Washington, which in itself is
> >somewhat unusual, obviously, and to be invited to address that
> >gathering in that place on that occasion strikes me as a very
> >significant acknowledgement by BSA of where we are in the software
> >world now. And I will have some remarks there on this particular
> >subject.
> >
> >I also think, however, that the question you are asking has a specific
> >answer for your readership. Which is that we regard taking measures in
> >the license, in the GPL, to assist free software in resisting "trusted
> >computing" as a very important facet in drafting GPL version 3. It is
> >one of the reasons why I expect that there will be a GPL version 3
> >draft for public discussion within the next several months. And it is
> >precisely in order to consider our options with respect to "trusted
> >computing" that I am again briefly delaying release of such a draft.
> >
> >I think that we need to make changes in the fundamental legal
> >infrastructure of free software, subtle but comprehensive, that will
> >help us to face the threat presented by "trusted computing," in part
> >by helping to convince users of free software who are also its
> >redistributors -- and by this I have in mind particularly the hardware
> >manufacturers -- to recognize that they must treat as fundamentally
> >incompatible "trusted computing" and the enormous benefit that they
> >gain by socializing software research and development through the free
> >software movement. We need them to understand that it is not possible
> >to pursue both courses simultaneously, because while the large
> >hardware manufacturers have been extremely helpful to us in furthering
> >our joint interest in preventing government-mandated "trusted
> >computing," they continue to explore in industry fora and in standards
> >organizations how they might go about it. And we need to point out to
> >them that the loss of the enormous benefi!
> > ts of treating software as a public utility in the 21st century --
> >having development and research done by everybody collectively -- is
> >simply way more important than even the apparent business interests
> >that lead them to explore the idea of computers that are not under the
> >control of their users.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >Printer Friendly Page Printer Friendly Page
> >Send to a Friend Send to a Friend
> >
> >"Login" | Login/Create an Account | 4 comments
> >Threshold
> >The comments are owned by the poster. We aren't responsible for their
> >content.
> >Re: Interview: Eben Moglen on the Microsoft decision and its
> >ramifications (Score: 1)
> >by mmarq on Monday, November 04 -at- 16:45:36 EST
> >(User Info | Send a Message)
> >WHAT IN THE HELL DID IT REALLY CHANGED????
> >
> >MICROSOFT HAVEN'T EVEN MADE A BREAK IN IT'S FEALTY ACTIONS, DURING THE
> >TRIAL!!!!
> >
> >IT'S ALL ABOUT "MONEY",..., NOT LAW OR JUSTICE,NOT COMPUTER
> >CODE,...,IT'S ABOUT AN ARTIFICIAL FREE ECONOMY WHIT ARTIFICIAL FREE
> >MARKETS WHERE BIG CORPORATIONS ARE ALLOWED TO SQUACH THE COMPETITION
> >WHIT EVERY DIRTY TRICKS IN THE BOOKS, AND A EVEN BIGGER NUMBER THAT
> >AREN'T IN THE BOOKS, JUST BECAUSE THEY PAY FOR THE POLITITIANS(the
> >campaigns and trouble) THAT MAKE LAWS TO PROTECT THEM, AND THEM LIES
> >AND PROPAGANDA TO MAKE AN ILLUSION OF A ARTIFICIAL FREE AND PROSPER
> >WORLD....!!!!
> >
> >AND THIS ISN'T A USA ONLY DISEASE, IT'S EUROPEAN, AND ASIA AND SOUTH
> >AMERICA,..., AND EVEN WORST,..., PEOPLE DONT REALLY WANT FREE MARKETS,
> >FREE OPPORTUNITYS FOR ALL,..., ALL THEY WANT IS TO MAKE "MONEY" AND
> >SCROU THE OTHERS!!!...
> >
> >SO NOTHING REALLY NEW UNDER THE SUN!!!....
> >
> >BUT I BELIVE THE BREATH OF FRESH AIR THAT IS "OPEN SOURCE" NEEDS MORE
> >AND DESERVES MORE... SO I APPEAL TO EVERYBODY TO GIVE BETTER AND MORE,
> >NOW THAT THEY UNDERSTAND CLEARLY THAT THEY HAVE BEEN AND ARE
> >CONTINUING TO BE UNDER HEAVY FIRE OF "MS & FRIENDS".
> >
> >AND IF ANYONE IN IS FREE RIGTH, BELIVES THAT I'M A STUPID ASSHOLE, HE
> >OR SHE WOULD BE KIND ENOUGH TO EXPLAIN:
> >A)WHY CAN'T WE HAVE A COMMON "LOOK & FEEL", AT LEAST IN OURS LINUX
> >DESKTOPS??
> >B)WHY DOES "KDEvsGNOME" WAR SOMETIMES FEELS WORST THAN MICROSOFT??
> >C)WHY THERE ISN'T A COMMON DOCUMENT FORMAT FOR ALL OFFICE APPLICATIONS
> >IN "OPEN SOURCE" WORLD(giving MS a chance??)???
> >D)WHY THERE ISN'T A COMMON WAY OF TRANSLATE MS OFFICE DOCUMENTS, AND
> >INSTEAD LOTS OF DUPLICATED EFFORTS(giving MS another chance??)???
> >
> >(the list could be much bigger)
> >
> >IF UNDER FIRE IN THIS TOUGH WAR, WE GIVE THE "ENEMY" SO MUCH CHANCES,
> >THE ONLY HOPE THAT "OPEN SOURCE" HAS, IS IF BILL GATES HAS A FEALTY
> >PERSONALITY AND CHOKE AND DIE IN IS LAUGHING OF THE
> >COMPETITION...............................
> >
> >
> >[ No Comments Allowed for Anonymous, please register ]
> >
> >Re: Interview: Eben Moglen on the Microsoft decision and its
> >ramifications (Score: 1)
> >by GuildPortal on Monday, November 04 -at- 17:01:10 EST
> >(User Info | Send a Message) http://www.guildportal.com
> >Here's my favorite part:
> >
> >"that for whatever reason, she does not regard free software --
> >GNU/Linux and all of its companion applications and programs -- as a
> >viable competitor;"
> >
> >In response, you have got to be kidding. It's simply not a competitor
> >on the desktop market. Tell you what, you come over to my place, we'll
> >run RedHat install on my server and watch it lock up completely when
> >trying to load the SCSI drivers. Then we'll head to IRC or Newsgroups
> >or Forums (on my Wintel machine, which works) and hear about how we
> >need to change a little something here and there and recompile the
> >kernel.
> >
> >Did you hear me? Recompile the kernel. Again, you've got to be kidding
> >me.
> >
> >But anyway, I understand why a person working with or on GNU/Linux
> >variants would want a little more out of the settlement.
> >
> >If you can't compete, litigate.
> >
> >
> >--
> >__________________________
> >Brooklyn Linux Solutions
> >__________________________
> >DRM is THEFT - We are the STAKEHOLDERS http://fairuse.nylxs.com
> >
> >http://www.mrbrklyn.com - Consulting
> >http://www.inns.net <-- Happy Clients
> >http://www.nylxs.com - Leadership Development in Free Software
> >http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/resources - Unpublished Archive or stories
> >and articles from around the net
> >http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/downtown.html - See the New Downtown
> >Brooklyn....
> >
> >1-718-382-0585
> >____________________________
> >New Yorker Free Software Users Scene
> >Fair Use -
> >because it's either fair use or useless....
>
> ____________________________
> New Yorker Free Software Users Scene
> Fair Use -
> because it's either fair use or useless....

--
__________________________
Brooklyn Linux Solutions
__________________________
DRM is THEFT - We are the STAKEHOLDERS http://fairuse.nylxs.com

http://www.mrbrklyn.com - Consulting
http://www.inns.net <-- Happy Clients
http://www.nylxs.com - Leadership Development in Free Software
http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/resources - Unpublished Archive or stories and articles from around the net
http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/downtown.html - See the New Downtown Brooklyn....

1-718-382-0585
____________________________
New Yorker Free Software Users Scene
Fair Use -
because it's either fair use or useless....

  1. 2002-11-01 Ruben I Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [hangout] Apache Question - Stupid Question for Today
  2. 2002-11-01 From: "Inker, Evan" <EInker-at-gam.com> Subject: [hangout] Apache Question - Stupid Question for Today
  3. 2002-11-12 Mike Richardson - Jounal Committee NYLXS <miker-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [hangout] a few questions on the Journal
  4. 2002-11-12 Ruben I Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [hangout] Anyone know who this is?
  5. 2002-11-12 Ruben I Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [hangout] Fwd: [nylxs-announce] Linux Scene Calender for Today [ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com]
  6. 2002-11-12 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [hangout] Business Network Meeting Tomorrow at Noon
  7. 2002-11-11 From: "Peter C. Norton" <spacey-nylug-at-lenin.nu> Subject: [hangout] Re: [nylug-talk] Change in Date: Inservice
  8. 2002-11-11 Ray Connolly <RConnolly-at-natsource.com> RE: [hangout] Classes Flyers and PR
  9. 2002-11-11 Ruben I Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [hangout] Classes Flyers and PR
  10. 2002-11-11 Ruben I Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [hangout] a few questions on the Journal
  11. 2002-11-11 vin <a1enviro-at-cloud9.net> Subject: [hangout] a few questions on the Journal
  12. 2002-11-11 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [hangout] Re: [nylug-talk] Change in Date: Inservice
  13. 2002-11-11 Mordy Ovits <movits-at-bloomberg.com> Subject: [hangout] Re: [nylug-talk] Change in Date: Inservice
  14. 2002-11-11 Ruben I Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [hangout] Re: [nylug-talk] Change in Date: Inservice
  15. 2002-11-11 Ruben I Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [hangout] Change in Date: Inservice
  16. 2002-11-11 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [hangout] Re: In Service Lecture & Business Network Meeting
  17. 2002-11-11 From: <joev_nylxs-at-pipeline.com> RE: [hangout] website builder question
  18. 2002-11-11 From: <joev_nylxs-at-pipeline.com> Re: [hangout] board of directorsnext en OS
  19. 2002-11-11 Ray Connolly <RConnolly-at-natsource.com> RE: [hangout] website builder question
  20. 2002-11-11 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [hangout] website builder question
  21. 2002-11-10 Gil Rosado <gil-at-grwebmasters.com> Subject: [hangout] website builder question
  22. 2002-11-10 From: "Joseph A. Maffia" <jam-at-rm-cpa.com> Re: [hangout] board of directorsnext en OS
  23. 2002-11-10 Ruben I Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [hangout] Fwd: [nylxs-announce] Weekly NYLXS Announcments [ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com]
  24. 2002-11-10 Ruben I Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [hangout] Queens Members?
  25. 2002-11-10 Joe Villari <joev_nylxs-at-pipeline.com> Re: [hangout] board of directorsnext en OS
  26. 2002-11-09 Ruben I Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [hangout] [DMCA-Activists] Comments + Broad Overview of Exclusive Rights Approaches
  27. 2002-11-09 Ruben I Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [hangout] [fairuse] NY Fair Use: Arena Outreach - Tomorrow at Brooklyn College
  28. 2002-11-09 Ruben I Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [hangout] Fwd: [fairuse] Re: [DMCA-Activists] Re: (DC 7/17) NY Arena Outreach, 11/3/02 [ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com]
  29. 2002-11-09 Ruben I Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [hangout] Can't Ping Subnet Behind VPN
  30. 2002-11-08 From: "Joseph A. Maffia" <jam-at-rm-cpa.com> Subject: [hangout] November Member Memo
  31. 2002-11-08 Ruben I Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [hangout] Business Demo Tape and review
  32. 2002-11-08 Ruben I Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [hangout] Mechanized Army
  33. 2002-11-08 Ruben I Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [hangout] Mechanized Army
  34. 2002-11-08 Ruben I Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [hangout] Mechanized Army
  35. 2002-11-08 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [hangout] Fundraise Online: November 14 Workshop in NYC
  36. 2002-11-07 Ruben I Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [hangout] Re: [novalug] Using Linux with Accounting Packages
  37. 2002-11-07 Ruben I Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [hangout] Prior restraint of Digital Use
  38. 2002-11-07 Ruben I Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [hangout] Prior restraint of Digital Use
  39. 2002-11-07 Michael Richardson <MRICHARDSON-at-abc.state.ny.us> RE: [hangout] next en OS
  40. 2002-11-07 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [hangout] Prior Restration and Digital Media
  41. 2002-11-07 Ray Connolly <RConnolly-at-natsource.com> RE: [hangout] next gen OS
  42. 2002-11-07 Michael Richardson <MRICHARDSON-at-abc.state.ny.us> RE: [hangout] next gen OS
  43. 2002-11-07 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [hangout] [rich.goodwin-at-cox.net: [novalug] LinkSys vulnerability!]
  44. 2002-11-07 Jean-Michel Smith <jsmith-at-kcco.com> Re: [hangout] Re: [DMCA-Activists] MSNBC / AP on "Trusted Computing"
  45. 2002-11-07 Ray Connolly <RConnolly-at-natsource.com> RE: [hangout] next gen OS
  46. 2002-11-07 Michael Richardson <MRICHARDSON-at-abc.state.ny.us> RE: [hangout] next gen OS
  47. 2002-11-07 Michael Richardson <MRICHARDSON-at-abc.state.ny.us> RE: [hangout] next gen OS
  48. 2002-11-07 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [hangout] Marco call me
  49. 2002-11-07 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [hangout] Re: [nylug-talk] [Fwd: FC: Consumer Alert on digital technology, consumers, copyright]
  50. 2002-11-07 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [hangout] Re: [nylug-talk] [Fwd: FC: Consumer Alert on digital technology, consumers, copyright]
  51. 2002-11-07 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [hangout] Re: [DMCA-Activists] MSNBC / AP on "Trusted Computing"
  52. 2002-11-07 Ruben I Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [hangout] Fwd: Confirmation - LinuxWorld NY'03 Conference & Expo
  53. 2002-11-06 Joe Villari <joev_nylxs-at-pipeline.com> Subject: [hangout] Fwd: Confirmation - LinuxWorld NY'03 Conference & Expo
  54. 2002-11-06 Ray Connolly <RConnolly-at-natsource.com> Subject: [hangout] laptops
  55. 2002-11-06 From: "Joseph A. Maffia" <jam-at-rm-cpa.com> Subject: [hangout] Fundraise Online: November 14 Workshop in NYC
  56. 2002-11-06 Michael Richardson <MRICHARDSON-at-abc.state.ny.us> RE: [hangout] Fundraise Online: November 14 Workshop in NYC
  57. 2002-11-06 Ruben I Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [hangout] more TCO ammo for OSS
  58. 2002-11-06 Ray Connolly <RConnolly-at-natsource.com> Subject: [hangout] more TCO ammo for OSS
  59. 2002-11-06 Ruben I Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [hangout] Installfest
  60. 2002-11-06 Ruben I Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [hangout] Installfest
  61. 2002-11-06 Billy <billy-at-dadadada.net> Re: [hangout] Installfest
  62. 2002-11-06 Billy <billy-at-dadadada.net> Re: [hangout] Installfest
  63. 2002-11-06 Ruben I Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [hangout] Installfest
  64. 2002-11-06 Ray Connolly <RConnolly-at-natsource.com> Subject: [hangout] MS Halloween 7
  65. 2002-11-06 Billy <billy-at-dadadada.net> Subject: [hangout] Installfest
  66. 2002-11-06 Ruben I Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [hangout] Hmmmm ... Maybe someone can explain this to me...
  67. 2002-11-06 Ruben I Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [hangout] Election Results
  68. 2002-11-06 Ruben I Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [hangout] Impending disaster for drm fight?
  69. 2002-11-06 Ruben I Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [hangout] Stake Holder Buttons
  70. 2002-11-06 Ray Connolly <RConnolly-at-natsource.com> Subject: [hangout] GNU/Linux and Small Businesses
  71. 2002-11-06 From: "Inker, Evan" <EInker-at-gam.com> Subject: [hangout] MS Linux (I've seen it all now)
  72. 2002-11-06 Michael Richardson <MRICHARDSON-at-abc.state.ny.us> RE: [hangout] Stake Holder Buttons
  73. 2002-11-06 Ruben I Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [hangout] Other things
  74. 2002-11-06 Ruben I Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [hangout] Stake Holder Buttons
  75. 2002-11-06 Ruben I Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [hangout] InstallFest Credits
  76. 2002-11-05 From: "gil rosado" <gr.music-at-verizon.net> Re: Fw: [hangout] Re: [nylug-talk] shell parser for /etc/passwdanyone?
  77. 2002-11-05 Ruben I Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [hangout] Re: [nylug-talk] directions needed
  78. 2002-11-05 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [hangout]
  79. 2002-11-05 Joe Grastara <jfg205-at-nyu.edu> Subject: [hangout]
  80. 2002-11-05 Ray Connolly <RConnolly-at-natsource.com> Subject: [hangout] Anti Freedom Laws and Their Pimps
  81. 2002-11-05 Matthew Hirsch <mph-at-dorsai.org> Re: [hangout] gpg
  82. 2002-11-05 Michael Richardson <MRICHARDSON-at-abc.state.ny.us> RE: [hangout] gpg
  83. 2002-11-05 Billy <billy-at-dadadada.net> Re: [hangout] gpg
  84. 2002-11-05 Michael Richardson <MRICHARDSON-at-abc.state.ny.us> RE: [hangout] gpg
  85. 2002-11-05 Billy <billy-at-dadadada.net> Re: [hangout] gpg
  86. 2002-11-05 Ruben I Safir <ruben-at-rm-cpa.com> Re: [hangout] Suse 8.0 disks for installfest
  87. 2002-11-04 Ruben I Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [hangout] Gnomecal and Addressbook
  88. 2002-11-04 Ruben I Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [hangout] MS Ruling and Free Software:E Moglin
  89. 2002-11-04 Ruben I Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [hangout] Gnome Board
  90. 2002-11-04 Ruben I Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [hangout] gpg
  91. 2002-11-04 Ruben I Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [hangout] gpg
  92. 2002-11-04 Billy <billy-at-dadadada.net> Re: [hangout] gpg
  93. 2002-11-04 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [hangout] gpg
  94. 2002-11-04 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com: Re: [hangout] gpg]
  95. 2002-11-04 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [hangout] gpg
  96. 2002-11-04 Matthew Hirsch <mph-at-dorsai.org> Re: [hangout] gpg
  97. 2002-11-04 Matthew Hirsch <mph-at-dorsai.org> Re: [hangout] gpg
  98. 2002-11-04 Billy <billy-at-dadadada.net> Re: [hangout] Interesting Developments
  99. 2002-11-04 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [hangout] Interesting Developments
  100. 2002-11-04 Joe Grastara <jfg205-at-nyu.edu> Re: [hangout] Interesting Developments
  101. 2002-11-04 Ruben I Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [hangout] Interesting Developments
  102. 2002-11-04 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [hangout] C class by Billy
  103. 2002-11-04 Billy <billy-at-dadadada.net> Re: [hangout] C class by Billy
  104. 2002-11-04 Ruben I Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [hangout] C class by Billy
  105. 2002-11-04 Billy <billy-at-dadadada.net> Re: [hangout] C class by Billy
  106. 2002-11-04 David Sugar <dyfet-at-ostel.com> Re: [hangout] Gnu/Linux maintainers protecting MPAA, Jack Valent & co
  107. 2002-11-04 Ruben I Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [hangout] Gnu/Linux maintainers protecting MPAA, Jack Valent & co
  108. 2002-11-04 Ruben I Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [hangout] gpg
  109. 2002-11-04 Ray Connolly <RConnolly-at-natsource.com> RE: [hangout] gpg
  110. 2002-11-04 Ruben I Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [hangout] gpg
  111. 2002-11-04 Ruben I Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [hangout] C class by Billy
  112. 2002-11-04 Ray Connolly <RConnolly-at-natsource.com> RE: [hangout] gpg
  113. 2002-11-04 Ruben I Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [hangout] gpg
  114. 2002-11-04 Ruben I Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [hangout] gpg
  115. 2002-11-04 Ruben I Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [hangout] gpg
  116. 2002-11-04 Ray Connolly <RConnolly-at-natsource.com> RE: [hangout] gpg
  117. 2002-11-04 Ruben I Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [hangout] gpg
  118. 2002-11-04 Ruben I Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [hangout] C class by Billy
  119. 2002-11-04 Billy <billy-at-dadadada.net> Re: [hangout] gpg
  120. 2002-11-04 Billy <billy-at-dadadada.net> Re: [hangout] C class by Billy
  121. 2002-11-04 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [hangout] [constant-at-indo.net.id: too stupid for Linux?]
  122. 2002-11-04 From: <joev_nylxs-at-pipeline.com> Re: [hangout] Nvideo Cards
  123. 2002-11-04 Mike Richardson - Jounal Committee NYLXS <miker-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [hangout] class rings
  124. 2002-11-04 spam-killer-at-mrbrklyn.com Subject: [hangout] [jgleason-at-nylug.org: [nylug-announce] THE LINUX SOCIETY | November 2002 (fwd)]
  125. 2002-11-04 Ruben I Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [hangout] Board Meeting - Next Monday
  126. 2002-11-04 Ruben I Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [hangout] FSI: New Class Schedules Up for December
  127. 2002-11-04 vin <a1enviro-at-cloud9.net> Subject: [hangout] Publicity for installfest
  128. 2002-11-04 Ruben I Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [hangout] NY Fair use Meeting
  129. 2002-11-04 Ruben I Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [hangout] NY Fair use Meeting
  130. 2002-11-04 Ruben I Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [hangout] Gnu/Linux maintainers protecting MPAA, Jack Valent & co.
  131. 2002-11-04 Ruben I Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [hangout] Gnu/Linux maintainers protecting MPAA, Jack Valent & co.
  132. 2002-11-04 Ruben I Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [hangout] Jewery
  133. 2002-11-04 vin <a1enviro-at-cloud9.net> Subject: [hangout] Gnu/Linux maintainers protecting MPAA, Jack Valent & co.
  134. 2002-11-04 Mike Richardson - Jounal Committee NYLXS <miker-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [hangout] video for installfest
  135. 2002-11-04 Mike Richardson - Jounal Committee NYLXS <miker-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [hangout] Jewery
  136. 2002-11-04 Mike Richardson - Jounal Committee NYLXS <miker-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: Fw: [hangout] Re: [nylug-talk] shell parser for /etc/passwd anyone?
  137. 2002-11-03 vin <a1enviro-at-cloud9.net> Re: [hangout] Press
  138. 2002-11-03 David Sugar <dyfet-at-ostel.com> Re: [hangout] Nvideo Cards
  139. 2002-11-03 Ruben I Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [hangout] Press
  140. 2002-11-03 Ruben I Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [hangout] Nvideo Cards
  141. 2002-11-03 Ruben I Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [hangout] Nvideo Cards
  142. 2002-11-03 Ruben I Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [hangout] Jewery
  143. 2002-11-03 Ruben I Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [hangout] Why Jews Like Linux Thread
  144. 2002-11-03 Ruben I Safir <ruben-at-rm-cpa.com> Subject: [hangout] INSTALLFEST NYC
  145. 2002-11-03 From: "gil rosado" <gr.music-at-verizon.net> Fw: [hangout] Re: [nylug-talk] shell parser for /etc/passwd anyone?
  146. 2002-11-03 Matthew Hirsch <mph-at-dorsai.org> Subject: [hangout] DMCA HORROR SHOW
  147. 2002-11-03 Mike Richardson - Jounal Committee NYLXS <miker-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [hangout] Suse 8.0 disks for installfest
  148. 2002-11-03 Ruben I Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [hangout] gpg
  149. 2002-11-03 Ruben I Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [hangout] Suse 8.0 disks for installfest
  150. 2002-11-03 Ruben I Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [hangout] Suse 8.0 disks for installfest
  151. 2002-11-02 Mike Richardson - Jounal Committee NYLXS <miker-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [hangout] Suse 8.0 disks for installfest
  152. 2002-11-02 Ruben I Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [hangout] C class by Billy
  153. 2002-11-02 Ruben I Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [hangout] EDIT THE JOURNAL
  154. 2002-11-02 vin <a1enviro-at-cloud9.net> Subject: [hangout] Letter to the Site Editors, Letter to the Magazine Editors
  155. 2002-11-01 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [hangout] Re: [nylug-talk] Re: Class Schedule
  156. 2002-11-01 Billy <billy-at-dadadada.net> Re: [hangout] dd correct for copying an iso image to hard disk?
  157. 2002-11-01 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [hangout] NYLXS Membership Night Out? It could work...
  158. 2002-11-01 Ruben I Safir <ruben-at-rm-cpa.com> Re: [hangout] error message under SUSE
  159. 2002-11-01 Ray Connolly <RConnolly-at-natsource.com> Subject: [hangout] observations
  160. 2002-11-01 From: <joev_nylxs-at-pipeline.com> Subject: [hangout] Wireless Keyboards and mouse
  161. 2002-11-01 David Sugar <dyfet-at-ostel.com> Re: [hangout] IBM and Linux - For Future Reference
  162. 2002-11-01 From: "Inker, Evan" <EInker-at-gam.com> Subject: [hangout] NYLXS Membership Night Out? It could work...
  163. 2002-11-01 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [hangout] IBM and Linux - For Future Reference
  164. 2002-11-01 vin <a1enviro-at-cloud9.net> Re: [hangout] error message under SUSE-Update
  165. 2002-11-20 David Sugar <dyfet-at-ostel.com> Re: [hangout] WRDII: promotion
  166. 2002-11-20 marco <marco4linux-at-earthlink.net> Subject: [hangout] Re: [ Free Software Chamber of Commerce ] Business Networking: Bronx
  167. 2002-11-20 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [hangout] Re: [ Free Software Chamber of Commerce ] Business Networking: Bronx
  168. 2002-11-20 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [hangout] Re: [nylug-talk] databases
  169. 2002-11-20 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [hangout] [jaboutboul-at-speakeasy.net: Re: [nylug-talk] Fwd: LinuxWorld NY 2003 Jan]
  170. 2002-11-20 From: "Joseph A. Maffia" <jam-at-rm-cpa.com> Subject: [hangout] Celebrate the arts with me
  171. 2002-11-20 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [hangout] OSS and K-12 Education Analysis
  172. 2002-11-20 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [hangout] This Morning's Follow up
  173. 2002-11-20 Ray Connolly <RConnolly-at-natsource.com> Subject: [hangout] OSS and K-12 Education Analysis
  174. 2002-11-20 Ray Connolly <RConnolly-at-natsource.com> Subject: [hangout] More from the DMCA
  175. 2002-11-20 David Sugar <dyfet-at-ostel.com> Re: [hangout] WRDII: promotion
  176. 2002-11-20 akosmin-at-mrbrklyn.com Re: [hangout] WRDII: promotion
  177. 2002-11-20 akosmin-at-mrbrklyn.com Re: [hangout] WRDII: scope and planning
  178. 2002-11-20 akosmin-at-mrbrklyn.com Re: [hangout] WRDII: scope and planning
  179. 2002-11-20 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [hangout] WRDII: scope and planning
  180. 2002-11-20 David Sugar <dyfet-at-ostel.com> Re: [hangout] WRDII: scope and planning
  181. 2002-11-20 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [hangout] WRDII: scope and planning
  182. 2002-11-20 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [hangout] WRDII: promotion
  183. 2002-11-20 akosmin-at-mrbrklyn.com Re: [hangout] WRDII: promotion
  184. 2002-11-20 Ray Connolly <RConnolly-at-natsource.com> Subject: [hangout] Linux 1 class
  185. 2002-11-20 From: "Adam Kosmin" <adk9001-at-nyp.org> Subject: [hangout] Re: Union-Tribune
  186. 2002-11-20 akosmin-at-mrbrklyn.com Re: [hangout] WRDII: scope and planning
  187. 2002-11-20 David Sugar <dyfet-at-ostel.com> Re: [hangout] WRDII: scope and planning
  188. 2002-11-20 David Sugar <dyfet-at-ostel.com> Re: [hangout] WRDII: scope and planning
  189. 2002-11-20 akosmin-at-mrbrklyn.com Re: [hangout] WRDII: board meeing
  190. 2002-11-20 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [hangout] Business Networking: Bronx
  191. 2002-11-20 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [hangout] WRDII: scope and planning
  192. 2002-11-20 akosmin-at-mrbrklyn.com Subject: [hangout] WRDII: scope and planning
  193. 2002-11-20 David Sugar <dyfet-at-ostel.com> Re: [hangout] Re: Windows Refund Day II
  194. 2002-11-20 akosmin-at-mrbrklyn.com Re: [hangout] Fw: Windows Refund Day II
  195. 2002-11-20 akosmin-at-mrbrklyn.com Subject: [hangout] Re: Windows Refund Day II
  196. 2002-11-20 Mike Richardson - Jounal Committee NYLXS <miker-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [hangout] Fw: Windows Refund Day II
  197. 2002-11-23 Kiryl Hakhovich <administrator-at-bsolution.net> Re[2]: [hangout] OSS and K-12 Education Analysis
  198. 2002-11-26 marco <marco4linux-at-earthlink.net> Re: Reply RE: [hangout] FSI- Stepping Up the Growth
  199. 2002-11-21 Ruben I Safir <ruben-at-rm-cpa.com> Re: [hangout] Re: [ Free Software Chamber of Commerce ] Business Networking: Bronx

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