MESSAGE
| DATE | 2002-11-01 |
| FROM | Ruben Safir
|
| SUBJECT | Subject: [hangout] IBM and Linux - For Future Reference
|
On Fri, 2001-11-23 at 14:49, hangout-at-nylxs.com wrote:
>
> >>If the objective is to make free software widely accessible and a common
> >>alternative to proprietary systems,
>
> Yes
>
> >> the open source/free community has
> >>to accept help from whatever sources it can.
>
>
> Maybe. Giving out code is not the same as helping schools.
>
> >>Yes, IBM is a big ugly
> >>corporation. Yes, if IBM could patent air and bill you for it, it would.
>
> That's right. And it's not point to be overlooked or simply brushed aside.
> Whatever they contribute, fine. This is not a reason to sleep with a Polar
> Bear.
>
>
> >>This being said, IBM can't beat the GPL (or at least has shown no
> >>inclination to do so yet)
>
> It probibly could if it wanted to, but this is not the focis of this
> discussion.
>
>
> >> and it has things we lack, specifically money,
> >>money, and more money.
>
> AH
>
> Now this is the point I wanted to get to.
>
> It's really not true that we don't have money. We have as much money as we
> care to donate, and spend, as a community. The community DOES have money.
>
>
> Furthermore, and money which is donated to any cause needs to be carefully
> examined for strings attached. And money is not the same as equiptment.
> If IBM wanted to donate to NYLXS, for example, 2 million dollars for the
> purposes of supporting our educational initiative. We would look to make
> sure it had no strings attached. If it had no strings, we would accept it.
>
> If they wanted to donate an s390 to NYLXS, they could keep it. We have no
> use for it without an infalstructure to maintain it.
>
> If they donate VM's, as they are, I currenty have no use for that either,
> and it completely is useless to helping the free software agenda in the
> schools. If they want to donate an actually s390, then that MIGHT be
> useful, but not likely. What would be more useful would be
> an open check. If they are interested in promoting FS in the schools, let
> them cut a damn check so the Clubs and Faculty can buy what they need to
> use FS as they see fit in the school. Second best is to donate a few PC's
> and a PC server, with other equiptment (hubs etc), if they wanted to. If
> they can help support new connectivity, that would also be good.
>
>
> Next best would be for them to help with faculty and tech support. Let
> them get their people in there on IMB time and money, 2x a week.
>
> But forcing a marketing solution on them is completely NOT of any use, and
> can be harmful, period...regardless of the money involved.
>
>
> There is also the danger of becoming too dependent of IBM. That is a
> disaster. The NY Linux Scene needs to develope the means to handle
> community needs on it's own without being dependent on IBM. We, as a
> community, DO have the money, time, and VOTES necessary to do the needed
> outreach and devlepment. What we don't have is focus and organization.
> And gawking at IBM is not helping.
>
>
> >> I don't know the same teachers you
> >>know, but the ones I have met are not teachers because of an abiding
> >>passion for technology--they want to teach kids, they need computers to
> >>do it,
>
> That's a good question. Really they don't need computers to teach kids.
> They need computers to teach kids about computers. In any event, this is
> where the COMMUNITY needs to get off it's duff and work. This is just
> plain old fashion, roll up your sleaves, and contribute to your community
> work. We have the talent to get into this school, and others, and to
> donate a few hurs a week to make the schools a better place for learning,
> and teaching of the power of freedom and free software. In fact, we can
> probibly put more people into the field than IBM. Let IBM support US in
> our lead to help the school, if they choose to help at all.
>
> >> and they really don't care whose OS or hardware they use as long
> >>as they get the machines in their classrooms, running, and with the
> >>training and support they need to make those computers go.
>
> And that, my friend, is a fatal misconception and huge problem. They DON'T
> want to just get computers into the school. They want to expand their kids
> horizons. Many object to computers in the schools at all, not to mention
> calculators. We need to show how FS expands on the basic ability to teach
> children, not how to use word processors, but how to THINK, DEDUCE, CREATE,
> and LEARN. We need to show how this huge library of computing software
> teaches instruction, and trains the mind to problem solve and communicate.
> THAT is the power of free software in the school system. It expands the
> oppurtunity of child to develop real world skills which they will use every
> day of their life, even, G-D forbid, if one day they need to take a job
> using Microsoft's yet unmamed Word Processor.
>
> >>
> >>Last week Microsoft announced a settlement agreement that gives schools
> >>free computers, and also provides $90 million in teacher training and
> >>$160 million in technical support. While it's easy to question the
> >>altruism of these settlement terms,
>
>
> It's not the altruism in question. If you read the articles by the
> Attorneys rejecting the offer, they're rejecting it on grounds that the
> introduction of MORE MS products into the schools is harmful to the kids!!
>
> And they're RIGHT.
>
> >>Why would any school
> >>board or school administrator turn up the opportunity to get free (as in
> >>beer) new computers, software, training, and support in favor of a bunch
> >>of hobbyists nattering about Free (as in speech) software, bearing a
> >>hodgepodge of old machines they sorta cobbled together from old parts
> >>dug out of the basement, and training and support that they can provide
> >>kinda on their off hours?
>
>
> Because this is not the real choice. The real choice is, why would they
> turn down free computers and software to their schools which restrict their
> teaching ability and obstruct their goals. Instead they can have support
> of an association of expert computer professionals from the community.
> This is especially true in light of the fact that what the teachers really
> would prefer is more text books, teaching space and room. Screw the
> computers. They're not on the SAT's.
>
> >>The only way we're
> >>going to be able to do have a serious presence in the classroom is by
> >>aligning ourselves with the help and support of corporate giants
>
> IMO, this is completely not true. Then were just trading one exploitative
> solution for another dressed up all nicely in the flag of the GPL. Only
> the community can make a difference. IBM is irrelavent in this regard
> accept in it's support of the local computing professionsals in the local
> FS movement who are working to make it happen.
>
>
> Really, the best thing IBM can do is hire more local Free Software people
> so that these people can better support their own damn school. They do
> have educational resources and programs, not to mention other areas of
> employment, which can put more FS people to work.
>
> let em hire Jay...
>
> :)
>
> Ruben
>
>
> --
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>
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>
>
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