|FROM ||Ruben Safir Secretary NYLXS
|SUBJECT ||Re: [hangout] School Technology
|From owner-hangout-desteny-at-mrbrklyn.com Tue Jul 22 03:52:39 2003
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Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2003 03:52:37 -0400
From: Ruben Safir Secretary NYLXS
To: Ruben I Safir
Cc: Sunny Dubey , hangout-at-nylxs.com
Subject: Re: [hangout] School Technology
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Reply-To: Ruben Safir Secretary NYLXS
List: New Yorker GNU Linux Scene
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All 7 of the reasons are related directly to the choice of PHP as the
technology to express the techincal foundation of the Beakman program.
...not that that was my point. My point was that they are trying to
emulate a program which is a proven failure in most regards.
Therefor, helping them repeat the same mistakes, which are were broad,
should be a sellable position.
On Tue, Jul 22, 2003 at 03:38:31AM -0400, Ruben Safir wrote:
> On 2003.07.21 22:57 Sunny Dubey wrote:
> > On Monday 21 July 2003 08:40 pm, Ruben Safir Secretary NYLXS wrote:
> > > Perl allows, as most people who took my classes know, a broad background
> > > in general programming skills, and computer science that is not possible
> > > with many other programming platforms. One of those platforms is PHP.
> > I think it is safe for me to say that PHP/MySQL is the most popular
> > language/database combination on the internet.
> That is STRONGLY doubtful, as JSP is probibly more deployed on the internet.
> I strongly doubt PHP/MySQL is even larger than mod_perl deployments and would
> challenge you to show the data and the studies to back up this statement.
> Not that this matters.
> > > We have already developed a very solid ciriculum with Perl to teach
> > > programming basics.
> > I think there is a fundamental flaw with NYLXS.
> What - JUST ONE FLAW!!!
> We are now a zillion times more perfect than all other groups anywhere!
> > The fact that NYLXS members
> > will advocate or use some technology, only because they are experienced of it
> > even if they are aware of other perfectly sound solutions.
> Now - I'm not sure what your talkign about but I oversaw a project management team which
> did NOTHING but PHP, and produced over 90 K lines of PHP code under my oversight, DESPITE my
> pleading that the project was too complex for PHP, and in the end, after I left, all the PHP guru's
> indeed ran against the wall with project control and debugging.
> In a word, it became impossible to debug. In any event, I hope your not referring to me in terms
> of a lack of experience in PHP, because I can, and have taught PHP, Perl, C and Shell scripting
> when needed to professional.
> The inadequacies of PHP to reach our goals is not an issue of dogma, and I will not be drawn into
> a PHP versus Perl Flame war, you can do that on your own time.
> They are completely different technologies. They are so different, that the whole argument is a useless
> > I've noticed this
> > particularly with how NYLXS often uses SuSE, when there are other 100% free
> > distributions.
> Now who is Dogmatics. Your 100% free version of GNU/Linux in Debian is functionally far less pollished
> than SuSe. Hell - they distributed GNOME without a logoff button.
> > If we are to advance free software, we must advocate whatever we have.
> Have you READ the educational goals of NYLXS yet? First read it, and then we can pick up on this
> conversation again with the same base reference.
> > Simply bashing a particular technology (PHP) is not the way to go. Especially
> > when someone else who we are to service has requested it.
> Show me where I bashed it? The hysteria around PHP is nearly laughable. I for one, couldn't care less about
> PHP one way or the other. But unless you can claim 4 years of educational experience, plus the professional
> oversite of a large enterprise us PHP and Perl, I need more than hysteria to back up claims. BTW, NYLXS is not
> in the Quartermaster of all Free Software requests in the Metro NY Region. We do things for our own reasons and
> to achive the goals we've set out to accomplish. If you can explain to me how we can achive the specific goals
> that we've laid out for Education, please refer to the specific goals and corlate them to the PHP features which
> accomplish those goals. That would be a useful constuction in the discussion, and it's the kind of professionalism
> which will be needed if your going to learn how to lead others in a positive direction in any serious field.
> > Of the 7 reasons, 6 had nothing to do with PHP at all. The first six could be
> > applied to just about any course teaching any material. (non computer
> > courses as well.)
> That's not true. The basic lack of built in programming tools for the enforcement and documentation
> of standardized programing interfaces made the Beekman project a giant eagles nest of clugged coding which
> was impossible to impliment within other institutions outside of providing web services to other institutions.
> Furthermore, the use of PHP as the introudction langugue for children will not contribute to an integrated kind of
> cross-pollonation which is needed to break the stranglehold of propreitary systems in which our current educational
> system is gripped by.
> > Additionally I think PHP is a great language because it isn't complex as C/C++
> > but at the same time it allows for an understand of basic programming
> > structure which is similar to C/C++.
> No it doesn't. It is NOTHING like C or C++. There is no means, for example, to make a pointer, or
> a reference to a union or a stuct to be objectified, or to even be passed between name spaces or scopes.
> And in fact, in many regards, PHP is more complex than C, especially ANSI C. It has an endless stream of
> built in functions with long names, limited database connectivitiy, and non-standardized function interfaces.
> In fact, PHP makes the C string library look nearly rational. This is not how you want to teach people
> to program.
> In fact, C and C++ are entirely differnet from each other. And who said that teaching C and C++ is an
> end goal in of itself. In fact, the principles of C and C++ are very difficult to teach with PHP because
> of it's lack of real references, it's lack of a true runtime enviornment, it's non-existant namespace
> implication, and so on.
> > Such comments really do tarnish the NYLXS name, and show a general sense of
> > ignorance on the topic at hand.
> Perl IS faster to code up than PHP.
> As for your comments on Perl, I'm not in the least bit interested in such a useless flamewar.
> Your entitled to your opinion. But you have not given a single shread of evidence to substantiate any of the points.
> Please substantiate your opinion with actually data, genuine example, or provable hypothesis.
> In fact, PHP has some very useful features, but you haven't mentioned ANY of them.
> Brooklyn Linux Solutions
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Brooklyn Linux Solutions
DRM is THEFT - We are the STAKEHOLDERS http://fairuse.nylxs.com
http://www.mrbrklyn.com - Consulting
http://www.inns.net <-- Happy Clients
http://www.nylxs.com - Leadership Development in Free Software
http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/resources - Unpublished Archive or stories and articles from around the net
http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/downtown.html - See the New Downtown Brooklyn....
NYLXS: New Yorker Free Software Users Scene
Fair Use -
because it's either fair use or useless....
NYLXS is a trademark of NYLXS, Inc