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DATE 2004-07-01

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MESSAGE
DATE 2004-07-30
FROM Adam Kosmin
SUBJECT Re: [hangout] SysAdmin to SysAdmin: It's the documentation, stupid!
From owner-hangout-destenys-at-mrbrklyn.com Fri Jul 30 13:57:34 2004
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Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 13:58:12 -0400
From: Adam Kosmin
To: "Inker, Evan"
Cc: hangout-at-nylxs.com
Subject: Re: [hangout] SysAdmin to SysAdmin: It's the documentation, stupid!
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>From a sysadmin's point of view, this is the laaaaaaaaaaamest thing I've
read in a long time.

Adam

" Here's a Letter every Sys/Admin has wanted to send to at least 1
" Developer/Programmer....
"
" SysAdmin to SysAdmin ,
" Administration
"
"
"
"
"
"
" SysAdmin to SysAdmin: It's the documentation, stupid!
"
"
" Wednesday July 28, 2004 (08:01 AM GMT)
"
" By: Brian Jones
"
" Dear open source developers: We sysadmins are tired of the crap you've been
" throwing at us. It seems you've been assuming all these years that we
" sysadmins are coders, and thus, "the code is the documentation." In reality,
" we are not coders. We are systems administrators, which is precisely why the
" word "coder" does not appear on anything which also has our name on it --
" and thus, your mantra is no longer cute.
"
"
"
" We are but lowly sods who mill about in the background, ensuring things like
" email and backup are working, and that users can get to the resources they
" need to do their jobs. Some of these users are even coders; but not us.
"
" We wish not for fame, but for stability. We dream not of the next killer
" app, but rather have nightmares about the next killer worm. We don't look
" forward to going to work every day to mangle bits, but rather to leave
" without maiming a luser.
"
" We are the Men In Black, completely invisible to all but those who seek our
" help (or who market products to us). We want to be in the background as much
" as possible. We don't even want to talk to others who aren't sysadmins.
" We'll go so far as to refrain from joining a single mailing list, so as to
" avoid the temptation of asking a question in some public forum, lest we be
" deemed foolish in some way. Our greatest wish is that those who come into
" contact with us forget that we even exist only seconds after they leave. We
" would kill for one of those "flashy things" like Tommy Lee Jones had in that
" movie.
"
" However, thanks to you open source developers, we instead look like a
" conspicuous flock of shiny-headed, drooling lunatics, incapable of
" deciphering even the simplest of tasks.
"
" Why systems administrators don't use your stuff
"
" You probably really do have the next killer app. You probably shout about it
" on every BBS and every mailing list possible.
"
"
" " &op=click&page=%2farticle%2epl>
"
"
"
" " &op=click&page=%2farticle%2epl>
"
" You've posted your release announcements to NewsForge. You even got
" Slashdotted once. But still, nobody is downloading, and that email link on
" your site saying "tell me if you're using it in production" hasn't been
" clicked on even a single time. You spend hours coding, coding, coding. You
" spend more hours promoting and generally keeping up with all things open
" source. You have an infinite number of IRC buddies who think you are 70t-at-||y
" 1337.
"
" Whatever. I'm not using it, and I'll tell you why. There is no
" documentation.
"
" When I say "there is no documentation," I don't necessarily mean that there
" is literally not a single file containing English text. What I mean is that
" there has not been one ounce of energy expended on the part of the developer
" to make clear the ideas behind the creation of your alleged masterpiece. Not
" an ounce of consideration has been given to the administrator who must
" implement, maintain, upgrade, support, troubleshoot, roll back, and yes,
" possibly even hack it into submission using (gasp) actual code. There are no
" "gotchas" listed anywhere in the README file, there is nothing but the
" default INSTALL file, and the most thoughtfully created file in the entire
" tarball is the file that gives thanks to all the people involved. And this
" is just the source tree I'm talking about.
"
" GUI apps have a Help menu with nothing listed in there but an "about"
" option, which pops up the slickest little thing I've ever seen. It must have
" taken hours to create - and yet, there is no documentation worth looking at!
" Please get your priorities straight, or delist your freshmeat project.
"
" Sysadmins don't use your stuff because your documentation is disgusting.
" Pick yourself up, dust yourself off, and go write some. The bigger problem
" for you coders, really, is that there are usually 20 different packages on
" freshmeat that all do the same thing. Of those 20, probably one or two have
" real-life, usable documentation. With documentation, I can get to know the
" software. Then I'll install it on a test box. If it works, great, I'm
" tickled pink. If it doesn't quite work, then I'm interested in giving
" feedback, because here's someone who will roll it back into the product or
" the documentation. This is a useful cycle that benefits millions, not the
" least of which is the coder! Documentation ends up resulting in a more
" mature product! Wake up!
"
" The code is NOT the documentation
"
" The code might've been the documentation to some degree back when 90% of the
" programs were written with 10% of the available programming languages.
" Nowadays, this doesn't fly. As an administrator, my job is to keep up with
" the latest and greatest in strategies and technologies involved in deploying
" services for the benefit of some user base. I sift through information
" looking for something relevant to my environment, filter that out, and start
" looking at software options I can use to deploy a service in a particular
" way. Nowhere in my job description does it say that I have to learn every
" new programming language in the event that someone develops a useful piece
" of software in it.
"
" I'm not even supposed to be looking at what language it's done in. I
" shouldn't have to care. You shouldn't want me to care. Hell, you shouldn't
" even want me to know about the different programming languages! Think of all
" the Java apps I might've deployed if not for the fact that I know it rather
" intimately and avoid it like the plague! But if the code is the
" documentation, this pretty much forces the issue of getting into the guts of
" all of these languages, not to mention buying way too many O'Reilly books.
"
" No, my job is to read the documentation available for the software. The goal
" in this stage of research is to get the coder's philosophy on dealing with
" the problem at hand. Hopefully, I can find an explanation that fits my
" brain. Once that's done, it's time to read on through the technical side of
" the documentation to gain an understanding of the implications of deploying
" said software. What does the software need? How does it do its job? How does
" it handle concurrent users? How much memory will it take under some example
" load? What ports does it open? How do I secure this thing? Does this replace
" another tool I'm already using? Why should I use it if I'm already using
" another app that seems to do the same thing? What other pieces of software
" complement this one? How is that software traditionally configured so that
" this software can take advantage of it?
"
" I could go on like this for days. Really. So can most other administrators,
" about random packages, or no packages at all. Our job is to be skeptical,
" lazy, and a bit suspicious. We ask questions as much to justify our
" skepticism as to gain knowledge. Your job, as a coder, is to either answer a
" reasonable number of our questions up front (and point to a place where even
" more are answered), or get an open source devotee to volunteer to help you
" write the documentation for you. Please do so.
"
" Exceptions? There are none. I've seen CLI programs that take only five or
" six flags, but there's nothing there to tell me how they actually do their
" job. Is it largefile aware? Is it scriptable? Is it comparing values before
" or after operation "x"? Sure, I'm an experienced systems guy, so I know how
" systems generally work, and I understand a good number of system calls; this
" doesn't mean I should have to run strace or tcpdump to get a grip on what
" this thing is doing!
"
" I have refrained from naming names here. It would serve no useful purpose,
" as my sysadmin colleagues can probably think of exactly the projects I'm
" talking about (as can the respective coders). I hope that this open letter
" gives someone some insight into how systems administrators approach finding
" a solution to a problem.
"
" Sincerely yours,
" Brian Jones
"
"
"
" ****************************************************************************
" This message contains confidential information and is intended only
" for the individual or entity named. If you are not the named addressee
" you should not disseminate, distribute or copy this e-mail.
" Please notify the sender immediately by e-mail if you have received
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" E-mail transmission cannot be guaranteed to be secure or error-free
" as information could be intercepted, corrupted, lost, destroyed, arrive
" late or incomplete, or contain viruses. The sender therefore does not
" accept liability for any errors or omissions in the contents of this
" message which arise as a result of e-mail transmission.
" If verification is required please request a hard-copy version.
" This message is provided for informational purposes and should not
" be construed as an invitation or offer to buy or sell any securities or
" related financial instruments.
" GAM operates in many jurisdictions and is
" regulated or licensed in those jurisdictions as required.
" ****************************************************************************
"

--

"Yes, Your Honor. Now, where we are so far, in at least my
line of reasoning, is I want to walk the Court through enough of our
complaint to help the Court understand that IBM clearly did contribute a
lot of the Unix-related information into Linux. We just don't know what
it is."

-- Kevin McBride SCO vs. IBM 12/05/03
____________________________
NYLXS: New Yorker Free Software Users Scene
Fair Use -
because it's either fair use or useless....
NYLXS is a trademark of NYLXS, Inc

  1. 2004-07-31 From: "Steve Milo" <slavik914-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [hangout] Re: [NMLUG] Re: legal music downloads?
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  6. 2004-07-30 From: "Inker, Evan" <EInker-at-gam.com> RE: [hangout] SysAdmin to SysAdmin: It's the documentation, stupi d!
  7. 2004-07-30 Michael Richardson <MRichardson-at-abc.state.ny.us> RE: [hangout] SysAdmin to SysAdmin: It's the documentation, stupi
  8. 2004-07-30 Adam Kosmin <akosmin-at-nyc.rr.com> Re: [hangout] SysAdmin to SysAdmin: It's the documentation, stupid!
  9. 2004-07-30 From: "Inker, Evan" <EInker-at-gam.com> Subject: [hangout] SysAdmin to SysAdmin: It's the documentation, stupid!
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  33. 2004-07-23 Michael Richardson <MRichardson-at-abc.state.ny.us> RE: [hangout] RAM for Suse 9.1
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  61. 2004-07-18 Mike Richardson - NYLXS PRESIDENT <miker-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [hangout] Help Camera Problems
  62. 2004-07-17 Mike Richardson - NYLXS PRESIDENT <miker-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [hangout] via voice
  63. 2004-07-16 Ruben I Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [hangout] Fwd: [suse-security-announce] SUSE Security Announcement: php4 (SUSE-SA:2004:021) [krahmer-at-suse.de]
  64. 2004-07-16 Mike Richardson - NYLXS PRESIDENT <miker-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [hangout] [DMCA_Discuss] Senators serious about DMCA fair use (fwd)
  65. 2004-07-16 From: "Inker, Evan" <EInker-at-gam.com> RE: [hangout] great job Rob
  66. 2004-07-16 Ruben Safir Secretary NYLXS <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [hangout] great job Rob
  67. 2004-07-16 Adam Kosmin <akosmin-at-nyc.rr.com> Subject: [hangout] great job Rob
  68. 2004-07-15 Ruben Safir Secretary NYLXS <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [hangout] Jobs in Brooklyn for real cash
  69. 2004-07-15 Ruben I Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [hangout] Time for vengeance
  70. 2004-07-15 Ruben I Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [hangout] Time for vengeance
  71. 2004-07-15 Ruben I Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [hangout] dev null route windows
  72. 2004-07-15 Adam Kosmin <akosmin-at-nyc.rr.com> Re: [hangout] Time for vengeance
  73. 2004-07-15 Billy <billy-at-dadadada.net> Subject: [hangout] Time for vengeance
  74. 2004-07-15 From: "Paul Robert Marino" <rob-at-concord.altschools.org> Subject: [hangout] leaving for the killarny
  75. 2004-07-15 Adam Kosmin <akosmin-at-nyc.rr.com> Subject: [hangout] Re: Since I haven't contributed in a while...
  76. 2004-07-15 Billy <billy-at-dadadada.net> Re: [hangout] dev null route windows
  77. 2004-07-15 Ruben I Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [hangout] dev null route windows
  78. 2004-07-15 Billy <billy-at-dadadada.net> Re: [hangout] dev null route windows
  79. 2004-07-15 Billy <billy-at-dadadada.net> Re: [hangout] dev null route windows
  80. 2004-07-15 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> RE: [hangout] dev null route windows
  81. 2004-07-15 From: "Inker, Evan" <EInker-at-gam.com> RE: [hangout] dev null route windows
  82. 2004-07-15 From: "Inker, Evan" <EInker-at-gam.com> RE: [hangout] dev null route windows
  83. 2004-07-15 Ruben Safir Secretary NYLXS <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [hangout] dev null route windows
  84. 2004-07-15 From: "Steve Milo" <slavik914-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [hangout] NYLXS inservice on Kerberos5, Cyrus SASL, OpenLDAP
  85. 2004-07-14 From: "Paul Robert Marino" <rob-at-concord.altschools.org> Subject: [hangout] NYLXS inservice on Kerberos5, Cyrus SASL, OpenLDAP
  86. 2004-07-14 From: <akbar-at-jaal.org> Re: [hangout] [OT] Computer Available
  87. 2004-07-14 Billy <billy-at-dadadada.net> Re: [hangout] dev null route windows
  88. 2004-07-14 From: "Inker, Evan" <EInker-at-gam.com> Subject: [hangout] Hack-proof and crash resistant - have you discovered the OS world 's
  89. 2004-07-14 From: "Inker, Evan" <EInker-at-gam.com> Subject: [hangout] How Linux Boots (Article)
  90. 2004-07-14 Ruben Safir Secretary NYLXS <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [hangout] [DMCA_Discuss] Vendor uses DMCA to bar third-party support contracts (fwd)
  91. 2004-07-14 Mike Richardson - NYLXS PRESIDENT <miker-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [hangout] [DMCA_Discuss] Vendor uses DMCA to bar third-party support contracts
  92. 2004-07-14 Ruben Safir Secretary NYLXS <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [hangout] Trip to hear Ruben
  93. 2004-07-14 Mike Richardson - NYLXS PRESIDENT <miker-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [hangout] Trip to hear Ruben
  94. 2004-07-14 Mike Richardson - NYLXS PRESIDENT <miker-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [hangout] FW:Infoworld: Is Content Control Constitutional? (fwd)
  95. 2004-07-14 From: "Ruben I Safir - Secretary NYLXS" <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [hangout] Fw: [Perl Jobs] Web Programmer for Mason-based e-commerce site (telecommute)
  96. 2004-07-14 From: "Ruben I Safir - Secretary NYLXS" <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [hangout] dev null route windows
  97. 2004-07-14 Ruben Safir Secretary NYLXS <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [hangout] FW:Infoworld: Is Content Control Constitutional? (fwd)
  98. 2004-07-14 Ruben Safir Secretary NYLXS <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [hangout] [OT] Computer Available
  99. 2004-07-14 Ruben Safir Secretary NYLXS <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [hangout] [jobs-admin-at-perl.org: [Perl Jobs] mod_perl/TemplateToolkit/Oracle Web Developer (onsite), United States, NY, Rochester]
  100. 2004-07-13 Mike Richardson - NYLXS PRESIDENT <miker-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [hangout] FW:Infoworld: Is Content Control Constitutional? (fwd)
  101. 2004-07-13 From: "Paul Robert Marino" <rob-at-concord.altschools.org> Re: [hangout] [OT] Computer Available
  102. 2004-07-13 From: <akbar-at-jaal.org> Subject: [hangout] [OT] Computer Available
  103. 2004-07-13 Ruben Safir Secretary NYLXS <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [hangout] Classes begin tonight
  104. 2004-07-13 Michael Richardson <MRichardson-at-abc.state.ny.us> RE: [hangout] Classes begin tonight
  105. 2004-07-13 Billy <billy-at-dadadada.net> Re: [hangout] DNS Question
  106. 2004-07-13 Michael Richardson <MRichardson-at-abc.state.ny.us> Subject: [hangout] FW: This Wed. Gnubies - Intro to Securing Your Email: Encryption
  107. 2004-07-13 Michael Richardson <MRichardson-at-abc.state.ny.us> FW: [hangout] Mike, take a look, NYDailyNews-Boroughs-Civic group
  108. 2004-07-13 Ruben Safir Secretary NYLXS <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [hangout] DNS Question
  109. 2004-07-13 Billy <billy-at-dadadada.net> Re: [hangout] DNS Question
  110. 2004-07-12 Ruben I Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [hangout] Mike, take a look, NYDailyNews-Boroughs-Civic groups go hi-tech with donated PCs
  111. 2004-07-12 Ruben I Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [hangout] DNS Question
  112. 2004-07-12 From: "Inker, Evan" <EInker-at-gam.com> Subject: [hangout] Glimmer of hope in copyright measures
  113. 2004-07-12 From: "Inker, Evan" <EInker-at-gam.com> RE: [hangout] Nitix Autonomic Linux-based Server Operating System
  114. 2004-07-12 From: "Inker, Evan" <EInker-at-gam.com> Subject: [hangout] Nitix Autonomic Linux-based Server Operating System
  115. 2004-07-12 Ruben I Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [hangout] Free Software Day write up - again
  116. 2004-07-12 Ruben Safir Secretary NYLXS <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [hangout] Bettina_Faltermeier-at-mcgraw-hill.com: Publisher Partnership Invitatio
  117. 2004-07-11 Ruben Safir Secretary NYLXS <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [hangout] Technite
  118. 2004-07-11 From: "Steve Milo" <slavik914-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [hangout] Technite
  119. 2004-07-11 Ruben I Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [hangout] Technite
  120. 2004-07-10 From: "Paul Robert Marino" <rob-at-concord.altschools.org> Subject: [hangout] Fwd: [TechForum] Gender Equity and F/OSS: New book submissions requested
  121. 2004-07-09 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> RE: [hangout] Commentary: Patched in 60 Seconds
  122. 2004-07-09 From: "Inker, Evan" <EInker-at-gam.com> Subject: [hangout] Commentary: Why Dell is scurrying to cover its tracks in Linspire
  123. 2004-07-09 From: "Inker, Evan" <EInker-at-gam.com> RE: [hangout] Commentary: Patched in 60 Seconds
  124. 2004-07-09 Michael Richardson <MRichardson-at-abc.state.ny.us> RE: [hangout] Commentary: Patched in 60 Seconds
  125. 2004-07-09 From: "Inker, Evan" <EInker-at-gam.com> Subject: [hangout] Commentary: Patched in 60 Seconds
  126. 2004-07-09 From: "Inker, Evan" <EInker-at-gam.com> Subject: [hangout] UNIGROUP Field Trip Meeting: 15-JUL-2004: Solaris 10 Launch Event
  127. 2004-07-09 From: "Inker, Evan" <EInker-at-gam.com> Subject: [hangout] Getting to Know Linux Class - July 24, 2004 (NYPC)
  128. 2004-07-09 Ruben Safir Secretary NYLXS <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [hangout] [Fwd: [wwwac] HOPE 2600 This weekend (NYC)] (fwd)
  129. 2004-07-09 Billy <billy-at-dadadada.net> Re: [hangout] [Fwd: [wwwac] HOPE 2600 This weekend (NYC)] (fwd)
  130. 2004-07-08 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [hangout] who is our contact at novell
  131. 2004-07-08 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [hangout] Free 10 GB Novell Resource Kit: Get SuSE Linux for
  132. 2004-07-08 Ruben Safir Secretary NYLXS <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [hangout] Free 10 GB Novell Resource Kit: Get SuSE Linux for Free
  133. 2004-07-08 Jacek Blizinski <azidog-at-nyc.rr.com> Re: [hangout] Free 10 GB Novell Resource Kit: Get SuSE Linux =?iso-8859-1?q?for=09Free?=
  134. 2004-07-08 Mike Richardson - NYLXS PRESIDENT <miker-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [hangout] [Fwd: [wwwac] HOPE 2600 This weekend (NYC)] (fwd)
  135. 2004-07-08 Jacek Blizinski <azidog-at-nyc.rr.com> Re: [hangout] Free 10 GB Novell Resource Kit: Get SuSE Linux for Free
  136. 2004-07-08 From: "Inker, Evan" <EInker-at-gam.com> Subject: [hangout] Anti-Spam Web Site (Great Info)
  137. 2004-07-08 From: "Paul Robert Marino" <rob-at-concord.altschools.org> Subject: [hangout] who is our contact at novell
  138. 2004-07-08 From: "Inker, Evan" <EInker-at-gam.com> Subject: [hangout] New 1G Email Service Available - www.walla.com
  139. 2004-07-08 From: "Inker, Evan" <EInker-at-gam.com> Subject: [hangout] Free 10 GB Novell Resource Kit: Get SuSE Linux for Free
  140. 2004-07-08 Ruben I Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [hangout] Video Recording
  141. 2004-07-08 From: "Inker, Evan" <EInker-at-gam.com> RE: [hangout] Video Recording
  142. 2004-07-08 From: "Ruben I Safir - Secretary NYLXS" <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [hangout] Video Recording
  143. 2004-07-07 Ruben Safir Secretary NYLXS <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [hangout] Re: Linix Users Group/In Princeton
  144. 2004-07-07 Ruben Safir Secretary NYLXS <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [hangout] NYLXS Trip to Princeton
  145. 2004-07-07 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [hangout] Re: Linix Users Group/In Princeton
  146. 2004-07-07 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [hangout] In-service
  147. 2004-07-07 Ruben I Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [hangout] Software Freedom Day Contribution
  148. 2004-07-07 From: "Paul Robert Marino" <rob-at-concord.altschools.org> Re: [hangout] In-service
  149. 2004-07-07 Michael Richardson <MRichardson-at-abc.state.ny.us> Subject: [hangout] In-service
  150. 2004-07-07 Mike Richardson - NYLXS PRESIDENT <miker-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [hangout] Dell to Offer Linux-Loaded PCs in Europe (fwd)
  151. 2004-07-06 From: "Paul Robert Marino" <rob-at-concord.altschools.org> Re: [hangout] changing date of ldap inservice
  152. 2004-07-06 Ruben I Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [hangout] changing date of ldap inservice
  153. 2004-07-06 From: "Paul Robert Marino" <rob-at-concord.altschools.org> Subject: [hangout] changing date of ldap inservice
  154. 2004-07-06 From: "Inker, Evan" <EInker-at-gam.com> Subject: [hangout] Linux, Still an Awkward Alternative (Washington Post)
  155. 2004-07-06 Ruben Safir Secretary NYLXS <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [hangout] Spam Assasin is a COMPLETE Piece of ...
  156. 2004-07-06 Ruben Safir Secretary NYLXS <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [hangout] Spam Assasin is a COMPLETE Piece of ...
  157. 2004-07-05 Mike Richardson - NYLXS PRESIDENT <miker-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [hangout] [Fwd: Re: [politics] France has only 800 soldiers in Afghanistan]
  158. 2004-07-04 From: "Ruben I Safir - Secretary NYLXS" <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> RE: [hangout] blowing up Small Schools
  159. 2004-07-04 From: "Ruben I Safir - Secretary NYLXS" <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> RE: [hangout] In Service Program
  160. 2004-07-02 From: "Inker, Evan" <EInker-at-gam.com> Subject: [hangout] Hunter College has Linux Courses!
  161. 2004-07-02 From: "Inker, Evan" <EInker-at-gam.com> RE: [hangout] In Service Program
  162. 2004-07-02 From: "Inker, Evan" <EInker-at-gam.com> RE: [hangout] Defending Small Schools
  163. 2004-07-02 Ron Guerin <ron-at-vnetworx.net> Re: [hangout] Defending Small Schools
  164. 2004-07-01 Adam Kosmin <akosmin-at-nyc.rr.com> Re: [hangout] Defending Small Schools
  165. 2004-07-01 From: "Steve Milo" <slavik914-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [hangout] Defending Small Schools
  166. 2004-07-01 Adam Kosmin <akosmin-at-nyc.rr.com> Subject: [hangout] forwarding mail
  167. 2004-07-12 Ruben Safir Secretary NYLXS <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [hangout] [jays-at-panix.com: [orgcom-mgmt] puck info for orgcom mailing list (fwd)

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