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MESSAGE
DATE 2023-05-14
FROM Ruben Safir
SUBJECT Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] (fwd) Re: Human & ape evolution
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Newsgroups: sci.bio.paleontology
Date: Sat, 13 May 2023 17:28:37 -0700 (PDT)
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Subject: Re: Human & ape evolution
From: "oot...-at-hot.ee"
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Xref: panix sci.bio.paleontology:77317

On Saturday, 13 May 2023 at 16:20:46 UTC+3, marc verhaegen wrote:
> > > Traditional paleo-anthropology is incredibly wrong in at least 4 inst=
ances:=20
> > > -- early-Miocene Hominoidea were already "bipedal" sensu "aquarboreal=
",
> savanna fool:
=20
> > You have no fossils.=20
>=20
> We have lots of fossils, see my Hum.Evol.papers (IOW, inform before talki=
ng!),=20
> but even if we hadn't, the comparative evidence is much more details at l=
east as important.
>=20
We have lot of fossils but you run from discussing those. With imbecile ins=
ults. About
early Miocene bipedal ape we have no fossils and you can cite none. =20

> > The saleanthropus and orrorin are from late Mioene,
> 3 misspelling in 1 short sentence...=20
> ??=20
>=20
> > neither looks like aquatic.=20
>=20
> Sigh.=20
> Even so, so what??=20
> 1) As I said (but you didn't read!), they're not our ancestors, possibly =
related to Gorilla, very likely aquarboreal:=20

Then you fail to show better candidates of fossils of our ancestors.=20

> more in detail (my 2022 book):=20
> =E2=80=A2 Sahelanthropus ('Sahel-mens', =E2=80=99Touma=C3=AF=E2=80=98 TM-=
266, 7=E2=80=936 Ma) staat zowat halfweg Pierolapithecus en een kleine gori=
lla: opvallend grove oogbeschermende voorhoofds-richel (~18 mm dik), hersen=
en niet groter dan bij chimps (~365 cc), hoektanden kleiner, kiesglazuur di=
kker, bijna zoals bij orangoetans. Geen echte tweebener, denkt Macchiarelli=
(2020), en ook Marc Meyer (2022) vindt de sterk gebogen ellepijp chimp-ach=
tig. Het fossiel komt uit een meerafzetting in Tsjaad, toen een palmrijk zo=
etwater-gebied met vissen, water-schildpadden, varanen, pythons, krokodille=
n, pauwen, zwanen, reigers en slanghals-vogels, diverse otters, aard- en st=
ekelvarkens, slankapen, antiloop- en girafachtigen, drietenige paardjes, en=
allerlei dikhuiden, het anthracothere 'nijlpaard' Lybicosaurus kwam uit de=
ondiepe zee=C3=ABn van het Lybische Sirt-bekken (Lihoreau 2006, Louchart 2=
008, Munro 2010, Novello 2017).=20
> =E2=80=A2 Orrorin (Milennium Man ~6 Ma), in 2000 ontdekt door Martin Pick=
ford=E2=80=99s groep in Kenya, lag in een waterbos (~1200 mm/jaar regen) me=
t nijlpaarden, slankapen, impala-achtigen en moeras-antilopes, verder nog e=
en andere mensaap denkt men, duikers en waterdwerghertjes, drietenige paard=
jes en chalicothere onevenhoevigen, zwijn- en olifantachtigen met ronde kie=
zen, boomhyraxen, palmcivetten, galago=E2=80=99s, vleerhonden, boom- en and=
ere knaagdieren, haasachtigen en neushoorns, grote otters, diverse vissen e=
n zoetwatermosselen. Orrorin leek meer mens- en chimpachtig dan Sahelanthro=
pus, aldus professor Pickford, en had klim- en tweebenige kenmerken: een ve=
rticale wervelzuil? De grote dijbotkop leek mensachtiger dan bij australopi=
theken en mensapen. De lange dijbothals hielp het been opzij bewegen, maar =
hinderde rennen. Dijbothals en dijbot waren voorachterwaarts afgeplat zoals=
bij fossiele mensen en australopitheken (maar minder dan bij robben), niet=
rond zoals bij mensapen, zeker niet zijlings afgeplat zoals bij dieren die=
veel rennen. Het eindkootje van de duim was zoals bij ons breder dan bij c=
himps, maar niet zo breed als bij boisei. Een handbotje was duidelijk gekro=
md: hangklimmen? Het gelaat was kort, de kiezen leken nogal klein, het tand=
glazuur =E2=80=93 met slijtage zoals bij ons, anders dan bij chimps =E2=80=
=93 was dikker dan bij Sahelanthropus en zeker Ardipithecus. Isotopen in ta=
ndglazuur wezen op een nijlpaard- of zwijnachtig dieet (Roche 2013). De oer=
-hominiden Sahelanthropus en Orrorin aten vooral fruit en water(kant)plante=
n, vermoed ik, klommen vaak overarms, stapten en waadden vaker dan laagland=
gorilla=E2=80=99s tweebenig in drasgrond, of dreven soms in ondiep water, k=
op en armen boven. Aquarboreaal?=20
>=20
I do not know what you mean by pasting it, let me translate:
=20
| =E2=80=A2 Sahelanthropus ('Sahel Man', 'Touma=C3=AF' TM-266, 7=E2=80=936 =
Ma) is about halfway between Pierolapithecus and a small gorilla: conspicuo=
usly coarse eye-protective forehead ridge (~18 mm thick), brain no larger t=
han in chimps ( ~365 cc), canine teeth smaller, molar enamel thicker, almos=
t like orangutans. Not a real two-legged man, thinks Macchiarelli (2020), a=
nd Marc Meyer (2022) also finds the strongly curved ulna chimp-like. The fo=
ssil comes from a lake deposit in Chad, when a palm-rich freshwater area wi=
th fish, water turtles, monitor lizards, pythons, crocodiles, peacocks, swa=
ns, herons and snake-necked birds, various otters, porcupines and porcupine=
s, slim monkeys, antelopes and giraffes, three-toed horses, and pachyderms =
of all kinds, the anthracothere 'hippopotamus' Lybicosaurus emerged from th=
e shallow seas of the Lybian Sirt Basin (Lihoreau 2006, Louchart 2008, Munr=
o 2010, Novello 2017).

What can be the issue that our ancestors 7 millions years ago were quite ap=
e-like?=20
Genetic evidence suggests that we did split from chimps about 2 millions ye=
ars later.
It had indeed to drown in some swamp for fossil to preserve. That does not =
say that it was
aquatic.

=E2=80=A2 Orrorin (Milennium Man ~6 Ma), discovered in 2000 by Martin Pickf=
ord's group in Kenya, was in a water forest (~1200 mm/year of rain) with hi=
ppos, slender monkeys, impalas and swamp antelopes, and another great ape o=
ne thinks, divers and water pygmy deer, three-toed horses and chalicothere =
odd-toed ungulates, round-toothed boars and elephants, arboreal hyraxes, pa=
lm civets, galagos, megabats, arboreal and other rodents, lagomorphs and rh=
inoceroses, large otters, various fish and freshwater mussels. Orrorin appe=
ared more human- and chimp-like than Sahelanthropus, says Professor Pickfor=
d, and had climbing and bipedal features: a vertical vertebral column? The =
large femoral head appeared more human-like than in australopithekes and ap=
es. The long thighbone helped move the leg sideways but hindered running. F=
emoral neck and thigh bone were flattened anterior-backward as in fossil hu=
mans and australopithics (but less than in seals), not round as in apes, ce=
rtainly not laterally flattened as in animals that run a lot. The terminal =
phalanx of the thumb was wider than in chimps, as in us, but not as wide as=
in boisei. A hand bone was clearly curved: hanging climbing? The face was =
short, the molars seemed rather small, the tooth enamel - with wear as in u=
s, unlike in chimps - was thicker than in Sahelanthropus and certainly Ardi=
pithecus. Isotopes in tooth enamel indicated a hippopotamus or boar-like di=
et (Roche 2013). The primeval hominids Sahelanthropus and Orrorin mainly at=
e fruit and aquatic (edge) plants, I suspect, often climbed overarms, walke=
d and waded more often than lowland gorillas on two legs in wetlands, or so=
metimes floated in shallow water, head and arms above. Aquaboreal?

Some incoherent word salad ... who said our ancestors must run a lot? Even
chimps can make spears and ambush their prey. Upright walking helps to
carry weapons and tools, to fight, to harvest and to carry food to camp.=20

> 2) They *far* predate the early-Pleistocene, when H.erectus frequently di=
ved for shallow-aquatic foods: brain x2, DHA, pachy-osteo-sclerosis, stone =
tools, shell engravings etc.etc.: early-Pleist.H.erectus can be called semi=
-aquatic, but what on earth does that have to do with Sahelanthropus & Orro=
rin??=20
>
You said --- << early-Miocene Hominoidea were already "bipedal" sensu "aqua=
rboreal" >>
It is still preserved above as your quote.
I brought two examples of fossils from *late* Miocene (note, not early) tha=
t were only moving
towards bipedality of h.erectus You deny these are our ancestors of Miocen=
e but fail to give
cite to any better fossils. But now you even complain that these predate ea=
rly
Pleistocene? We discussed Miocene, remember ??? =20
=20
> Sigh.=20
> Inform before talking, little boy: grow up!

Learn to behave in non-demented manner. Try to add some level of coherence
to what you write, also take notes to keep track what you are discussing. O=
r just=20
snip and run if you can't.
Are you from savanna? Is the dementia because of sunstroke?=20

-- end of forwarded message --
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  48. 2023-05-14 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] (fwd) Re: Human & ape evolution
  49. 2023-05-14 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] (fwd) Re: Human & ape evolution
  50. 2023-05-14 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] (fwd) Re: Human & ape evolution
  51. 2023-05-14 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] (fwd) Re: Human & ape evolution
  52. 2023-05-14 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] (fwd) Re: Human & ape evolution
  53. 2023-05-14 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] (fwd) Re: Human & ape evolution
  54. 2023-05-14 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] (fwd) Re: Human & ape evolution
  55. 2023-05-14 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] (fwd) Re: Human & ape evolution
  56. 2023-05-14 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] (fwd) Re: Human & ape evolution
  57. 2023-05-14 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] (fwd) Re: Human & ape evolution
  58. 2023-05-14 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] (fwd) Re: Human & ape evolution
  59. 2023-05-14 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] (fwd) Re: Human & ape evolution
  60. 2023-05-14 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] (fwd) Re: Human & ape evolution
  61. 2023-05-14 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] (fwd) Re: Human & ape evolution
  62. 2023-05-14 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] (fwd) Re: Human & ape evolution
  63. 2023-05-14 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] (fwd) Re: Human & ape evolution
  64. 2023-05-14 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] (fwd) Re: Human & ape evolution
  65. 2023-05-14 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] (fwd) Re: Human & ape evolution
  66. 2023-05-14 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] (fwd) Re: Human & ape evolution
  67. 2023-05-14 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] (fwd) Re: Human & ape evolution
  68. 2023-05-14 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] (fwd) Re: Human & ape evolution
  69. 2023-05-14 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] (fwd) Re: Human & ape evolution
  70. 2023-05-14 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] (fwd) Re: Human & ape evolution
  71. 2023-05-14 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] (fwd) Re: Human & ape evolution
  72. 2023-05-14 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] (fwd) Re: Human & ape evolution
  73. 2023-05-14 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] (fwd) Re: Human & ape evolution
  74. 2023-05-14 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] (fwd) Re: Human & ape evolution
  75. 2023-05-14 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] (fwd) Re: Human & ape evolution
  76. 2023-05-14 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] (fwd) Re: Human & ape evolution
  77. 2023-05-14 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] (fwd) Re: Human & ape evolution
  78. 2023-05-14 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] (fwd) Re: Human & ape evolution
  79. 2023-05-14 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] (fwd) Re: Human & ape evolution
  80. 2023-05-14 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] (fwd) Re: Human & ape evolution
  81. 2023-05-14 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] (fwd) Re: Human & ape evolution
  82. 2023-05-14 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] (fwd) Re: Human & ape evolution
  83. 2023-05-14 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] (fwd) Re: Human & ape evolution
  84. 2023-05-14 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] (fwd) Re: Human & ape evolution
  85. 2023-05-14 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] (fwd) Re: Human & ape evolution
  86. 2023-05-14 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] (fwd) Re: Human & ape evolution
  87. 2023-05-14 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Fwd: why bash in $0 ?
  88. 2023-05-14 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Fwd: Re: why bash in $0 ?
  89. 2023-05-15 Gabor Szabo <gabor-at-szabgab.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] [Perlweekly] #616 - Camel in India
  90. 2023-05-15 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] WSJ Legal Notices
  91. 2023-05-16 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] OK - We are here.... Thank You COVID
  92. 2023-05-15 From: "American Numismatic Society" <membership-at-numismatics.org> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] =?utf-8?q?This_week_at_the_ANS=E2=80=94May_19?=
  93. 2023-05-27 Joel Brobecker <brobecker-at-adacore.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] GDB 13.2 released!
  94. 2023-05-26 From: "American Numismatic Society" <membership-at-numismatics.org> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Join us for today's Long Table with David
  95. 2023-05-29 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Blue Ribbon Panel
  96. 2023-05-29 From: "American Numismatic Society" <membership-at-numismatics.org> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] =?utf-8?q?This_week_at_the_ANS=E2=80=94June_2?=
  97. 2023-05-29 Gabor Szabo <gabor-at-szabgab.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] [Perlweekly] #618 - Conference Season?
  98. 2023-05-30 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Fwd: One Year MBA in HC,
  99. 2023-05-31 ruth02-at-web.de Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] Weaponing the Justice system continues | |
  100. 2023-05-31 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] Weaponing the Justice system continues | |
  101. 2023-05-31 From: "Chaim Desser" <info-at-poelgroupstaffing.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] current positions to fill

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