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MESSAGE
DATE 2023-05-14
FROM Ruben Safir
SUBJECT Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] (fwd) Re: Human & ape evolution
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Date: Thu, 11 May 2023 05:47:26 -0700 (PDT)
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Subject: Re: Human & ape evolution
From: "oot...-at-hot.ee"
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Xref: panix sci.bio.paleontology:77286

On Wednesday, 3 May 2023 at 14:40:13 UTC+3, marc verhaegen wrote:
As example of non-discussion.

> Op dinsdag 25 april 2023 om 14:22:39 UTC+2 schreef oot...-at-hot.ee:

> > > 4 frequent paleo-anthropological prejudices, with 0 evidence:=20
> > > Many PAs still *assume* that human ancestors=20
> > > 1) became bipedal when we left the trees for the gound??=20
> > > 2) came Out-of-Africa (OoA)??=20
> > > 3) were savanna-dwellers???=20
>=20
> > That is not that popular hypothesis. You typically use it as straw man.
>=20
> It's only 1 of the many popular PA prejudices.
>=20
What is PA? One can improve obfuscation of TLA about 40 times by=20
"improving" it to "two letter abbreviation".=20
I do not see (despite searching) and you do not provide any evidence of
savanna hypothesis popularity. The lot simpler reasons of bipedality=20
is improved tool/weapon/armor carrying and usage convenience ... but
from obvious arguments you snip and run away.

> > Found remains show indications that our ancestors were still well=20
> > adapted to climbing trees, even after they had begun to walk upright.
> Of course: google "aquarboreal"!
>=20
That is self-referencing spam. Go dive into some tropic swamp then tell
us if it was good idea on case you manage to survive.

> > > 4) had australopithecine ancestors??=20
>=20
> > And also its bones demonstrate features consistent with tree climbing.
> Yes, of course:=20
> https://www.gondwanatalks.com/l/the-waterside-hypothesis-wading-led-to-up=
right-walking-in-early-humans/
>=20
There is point to wade only when carrying something. Otherwise swimming
is lot more energy efficient. But same is about bipedal movement in any
environment. Our ancestors possibly did wade as occasionally as humans
do now.

> > > These are only anthropo- & afro-centric just-so pre-assumptions:=20
> > > - Darwin thought "Out of Africa" (Pan & Gorilla were African),=20
> > > - Africa (apart from sahara) is mostly jungle or savanna,=20
> > > - apiths lived in Africa, were BP, and had some humanlike anatomical =
traits.=20
>=20
> > Typical lie that all the science is what some bearded guys thought=20
> > more than hundred years ago. That kind of lies are common among=20
> > people who do not read scientific publications. IOW flat earthers,=20
> > geocentrists and deep one worshipers.
>=20
> Worshipers?
>
Zero links to proof of popularity of savanna hypothesis. That is your
false dichotomy straw man argument. But limitless number of kooks can
be wrong about same thing, each in its own way and so there are no
such dichotomy.

> > > Therefore, many (most?) PAs still assume, without evidence, that=20
> > > 1) we became BP after we split from Pan, and left the forest,=20
>=20
> > Where you concluded that we left forests?
>=20
> I??=20
> Traditional PAers: I'm trying to understand how many PAers still reason.
>=20
Still no idea what is your PA, and still no evidence besides some
kind of hostile stance towards that PA. Whatever PA can not add
any evidence that you do not have to you. Something happened,
rest of limitless possibilities did not. What happened happened
anyway in past and past is outside of sphere of influence of kooks.

> > Why? Forest is full=20
> > of edible nuts, eggs, fruit, mushrooms and animals are easier to=20
> > trap or ambush. Is it because you live in country that has all=20
> > forest cut down? Do not mirror your tragedy to our ancestors.
> ??=20
> Lots of trees in my garden...
>=20
Attempt to dodge with joke ... agriculture is likely only about 30K years
old so references to it are irrelevant. Benefit of forest for hunter and
gatherer however was left undiscussed.

> > > 2) Homo & "hominins" originated in Africa (OoA),=20
> > > 3) we ran bipedally in savannas,=20
>=20
> > Depends what savannas. Heavily wooded? Or why they had=20
> > capability to climb?
>=20
> I wouldn't know: I'm trying to understand how many PAists still reason.
>=20
So you have no idea about that PA but still claim it. What is the point?=20

> > > 4) BP fossils in Africa incl. apiths are =E2=80=9Chominin=E2=80=9D (a=
nthropo-centric belief: Pan & Gorilla have no fossils=E2=80=A6??).=20
> > > But=20
> > > 1) early-Miocene Hominoidea were already BP=3Dvertical waders-climber=
s in swamp forests (humans & gibbons still are BP), google AQUARBOREAL,=20
>=20
> > Here is a word our sole deep one worshiper pushes. Note that=20
> > its sole evidence is few carved seashells found on Java. Place=20
> > where even crow can find seashells, but no one starts to tell=20
> > that crow did dive.
>=20
> You're still confusing=20
> - Mio-Pliocene aquarboreal Hominoidea,=20
> - early-Pleist. shallow-diving H.erectus.
>=20
Genetic evidence shows that we are farther from orangutans and
gibbons than from African apes. There are no fossils or tool findings of
your early Pliocene aquatic ape in Asia. There are enough fossils
and tool findings of non-aquatic ape in Africa from that time. By late
Pliocene however our tool using ancestors were all over the place.
So everybody conclude that these came out of Africa and spread
during late Pliocene. You never discuss that. What have few seashells
from early Pleistocene Java to do with any of it? Untold explanation
of yours. I repeat, even crow can find seashells there.

> > > 2) Mio-Pliocene Hominoidea came from N-Tethys coasts (hylobatids & po=
ngids still live in SE.Asia),=20
> > > 3) human ancestors have always been waterside (cf. physiology, anatom=
y, diet+DHA, island colonizations, intercontin.dispersals etc.etc.),=20
> > > 4) E.Afr.apiths resemble Gorilla > Pan > Homo, S.Afr.apiths resemble =
Pan > Homo or Gorilla (e.g. my Hum.Evol.papers).=20
> > > https://www.gondwanatalks.com/l/the-waterside-hypothesis-wading-led-t=
o-upright-walking-in-early-humans/=20
> > > Partial convergence? Nasalis monkeys (large & upright body, rel.long =
legs=E2=80=A6) in mangrove forests also often wade bipedally & climb arms o=
verhead.=20
> > > Likely scenario IMO: Plate Tectonics & Hominoid Splittings:=20
> > > c 30 Ma India approaching S-Asia formed island archipels =3D coastal =
forests++=20
> > > c 25 Ma Catarrhini reaching these islands became wading bipedally + c=
limbing arms overhead =3D aquarboreal Hominoidea.=20
> > > c 20 Ma India further underneath Asia split hylobatids (E) & other=3D=
great apes (W), both following coastal forests along N-Tethys Ocean (E vs W=
).=20
> > > c 15 Ma Mesopotamian Seaway Closure split pongid-sivapith (E) & homin=
id-dryopith (W: Medit.Sea + hominids s.s. in incipient Red Sea swamp forest=
s).=20
> > > c 8 Ma in Red Sea: N-Rift fm, followed by Gorilla -> Afar -> Praeanth=
ropus afarensis -> boisei -> today G.gorilla & G.beringei.=20
> > > c 5 Ma the Red Sea opens into Gulf (Francesca Mansfield thinks caused=
by the Zanclean mega-flood 5.33 Ma):=20
> > > =E2=80=93 Pan went right: E.Afr.coastal forests -> S-Rift -> Transvaa=
l -> Australopith.africanus -> robustus (// Gorilla) -> today P.troglodytes=
& P.paniscus,=20
> > > =E2=80=93 Homo went left: S.Asian coasts -> Java early-Pleist.H.erect=
us -> shallow-diving: pachy-osteo-sclerosis, DHA, brain+, stone tools, shel=
l engravings...=20
> > > mid- -> late-Pleist.: diving -> wading -> walking H.sapiens.=20
> > > Early-Pleist. H.erectus' diet was probably mostly shellfish (engravin=
gs, stone tools, DHA & larger brain etc.),=20
> > > but what did Mio-Pliocene Hominoidea eat in coastal forests? fruits? =
mangrove oysters? sort of rice?? ...?=20
>=20
> > Yeah forests were more moist indeed before; stupid humans have dried=20
> > these out recently to gain access to wood with vehicles or for to turn =
those=20
> > into non-sustainable farmlands. Also there were floods sometimes so mos=
t=20
> > animals can swim fine, wolf, deer, bear, even PAN. But indeed ... go fi=
nd=20
> > seashells in swamp. Good luck.
>=20
> You're still confusing=20
> - Mio-Pliocene aquarboreal Hominoidea,=20
> - early-Pleist. shallow-diving H.erectus.=20
>=20
> aqua=3Dwater, arbor=3Dtree
>=20
Lot of animals can swim noticeable distances when needed and that does
not make them aquatic enough to be worth mentioning. We find lot of
h.erectus tools in non-coastal locations. Who carried those there and
why? So tell us story of your version of Pliocene that fits with evidence.
Do not run away with insults.
=20
> > The savanna hypothesis did not become obsolete because your deep=20
> > divers found any ... counter-evidence is about climbing, not deep divin=
g.
>=20
> ?? is the savanna hypothesis "obsolete"??=20
> ?? *deep*divers??
>=20
I do not know who is sponsoring that savanna hypothesis. You never identify
them. You only use it as false dichotomy with your swamp ape.
-- end of forwarded message --
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  47. 2023-05-14 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] (fwd) Re: Human & ape evolution
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  52. 2023-05-14 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] (fwd) Re: Human & ape evolution
  53. 2023-05-14 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] (fwd) Re: Human & ape evolution
  54. 2023-05-14 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] (fwd) Re: Human & ape evolution
  55. 2023-05-14 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] (fwd) Re: Human & ape evolution
  56. 2023-05-14 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] (fwd) Re: Human & ape evolution
  57. 2023-05-14 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] (fwd) Re: Human & ape evolution
  58. 2023-05-14 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] (fwd) Re: Human & ape evolution
  59. 2023-05-14 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] (fwd) Re: Human & ape evolution
  60. 2023-05-14 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] (fwd) Re: Human & ape evolution
  61. 2023-05-14 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] (fwd) Re: Human & ape evolution
  62. 2023-05-14 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] (fwd) Re: Human & ape evolution
  63. 2023-05-14 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] (fwd) Re: Human & ape evolution
  64. 2023-05-14 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] (fwd) Re: Human & ape evolution
  65. 2023-05-14 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] (fwd) Re: Human & ape evolution
  66. 2023-05-14 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] (fwd) Re: Human & ape evolution
  67. 2023-05-14 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] (fwd) Re: Human & ape evolution
  68. 2023-05-14 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] (fwd) Re: Human & ape evolution
  69. 2023-05-14 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] (fwd) Re: Human & ape evolution
  70. 2023-05-14 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] (fwd) Re: Human & ape evolution
  71. 2023-05-14 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] (fwd) Re: Human & ape evolution
  72. 2023-05-14 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] (fwd) Re: Human & ape evolution
  73. 2023-05-14 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] (fwd) Re: Human & ape evolution
  74. 2023-05-14 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] (fwd) Re: Human & ape evolution
  75. 2023-05-14 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] (fwd) Re: Human & ape evolution
  76. 2023-05-14 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] (fwd) Re: Human & ape evolution
  77. 2023-05-14 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] (fwd) Re: Human & ape evolution
  78. 2023-05-14 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] (fwd) Re: Human & ape evolution
  79. 2023-05-14 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] (fwd) Re: Human & ape evolution
  80. 2023-05-14 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] (fwd) Re: Human & ape evolution
  81. 2023-05-14 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] (fwd) Re: Human & ape evolution
  82. 2023-05-14 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] (fwd) Re: Human & ape evolution
  83. 2023-05-14 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] (fwd) Re: Human & ape evolution
  84. 2023-05-14 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] (fwd) Re: Human & ape evolution
  85. 2023-05-14 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] (fwd) Re: Human & ape evolution
  86. 2023-05-14 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] (fwd) Re: Human & ape evolution
  87. 2023-05-14 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Fwd: why bash in $0 ?
  88. 2023-05-14 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Fwd: Re: why bash in $0 ?
  89. 2023-05-15 Gabor Szabo <gabor-at-szabgab.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] [Perlweekly] #616 - Camel in India
  90. 2023-05-15 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] WSJ Legal Notices
  91. 2023-05-16 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] OK - We are here.... Thank You COVID
  92. 2023-05-15 From: "American Numismatic Society" <membership-at-numismatics.org> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] =?utf-8?q?This_week_at_the_ANS=E2=80=94May_19?=
  93. 2023-05-27 Joel Brobecker <brobecker-at-adacore.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] GDB 13.2 released!
  94. 2023-05-26 From: "American Numismatic Society" <membership-at-numismatics.org> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Join us for today's Long Table with David
  95. 2023-05-29 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Blue Ribbon Panel
  96. 2023-05-29 From: "American Numismatic Society" <membership-at-numismatics.org> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] =?utf-8?q?This_week_at_the_ANS=E2=80=94June_2?=
  97. 2023-05-29 Gabor Szabo <gabor-at-szabgab.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] [Perlweekly] #618 - Conference Season?
  98. 2023-05-30 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Fwd: One Year MBA in HC,
  99. 2023-05-31 ruth02-at-web.de Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] Weaponing the Justice system continues | |
  100. 2023-05-31 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] Weaponing the Justice system continues | |
  101. 2023-05-31 From: "Chaim Desser" <info-at-poelgroupstaffing.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] current positions to fill

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