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MESSAGE
DATE 2023-05-14
FROM Ruben Safir
SUBJECT Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] (fwd) Re: Human & ape evolution
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Newsgroups: sci.bio.paleontology
Date: Sun, 14 May 2023 04:01:16 -0700 (PDT)
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Subject: Re: Human & ape evolution
From: marc verhaegen
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Xref: panix sci.bio.paleontology:77319

> > > > Traditional paleo-anthropology is incredibly wrong in at least 4 in=
stances:=20
> > > > -- early-Miocene Hominoidea were already "bipedal" sensu "aquarbore=
al",=20

savanna fool:=20
> > > You have no fossils.=20

> > We have lots of fossils, see my Hum.Evol.papers (IOW, inform before tal=
king!),=20
> > but even if we hadn't, the comparative evidence is much more details at=
least as important.=20

savanna fool:
> We have lot of fossils but you run from discussing those. With imbecile i=
nsults. About=20
> early Miocene bipedal ape we have no fossils and you can cite none.

:-DDD
Even if we hadn't, the comparative evidence is much more detailed, but we h=
ave several fossils, see my Hum.Evol.papers (IOW, inform before talking!), =
e.g. all sivapiths =3D probably pongids (Ankarapithecus, Sivapith., Khoratp=
ith., Lufengpith., Gigantopith., Indo.pithecus) & all dryopiths =3D hominid=
s: Pierolapith., Anoiapith., Danuvius, Dryo-, Ruda-, Bodva-, Hispano-pith.,=
Oreopith., Trachilos footprints, Ourano-, Graeco-pith.etc.
=20
savanna fool:
> > > The saleanthropus and orrorin are from late Mioene,=20

> > 3 misspelling in 1 short sentence... ??=20

savanna fool:
> > > neither looks like aquatic.=20

> > Sigh. Even so, so what??=20
> > 1) As I said (but you didn't read!), they're not our ancestors, possibl=
y related to Gorilla, very likely aquarboreal:

> Then you fail to show better candidates of fossils of our ancestors.

:-DDD Our savanna fool fails to see.

> > more in detail (my 2022 book):=20
> > =E2=80=A2 Sahelanthropus ('Sahel-mens', =E2=80=99Touma=C3=AF=E2=80=98 T=
M-266, 7=E2=80=936 Ma) staat zowat halfweg Pierolapithecus en een kleine go=
rilla: opvallend grove oogbeschermende voorhoofds-richel (~18 mm dik), hers=
enen niet groter dan bij chimps (~365 cc), hoektanden kleiner, kiesglazuur =
dikker, bijna zoals bij orangoetans. Geen echte tweebener, denkt Macchiarel=
li (2020), en ook Marc Meyer (2022) vindt de sterk gebogen ellepijp chimp-a=
chtig. Het fossiel komt uit een meerafzetting in Tsjaad, toen een palmrijk =
zoetwater-gebied met vissen, water-schildpadden, varanen, pythons, krokodil=
len, pauwen, zwanen, reigers en slanghals-vogels, diverse otters, aard- en =
stekelvarkens, slankapen, antiloop- en girafachtigen, drietenige paardjes, =
en allerlei dikhuiden, het anthracothere 'nijlpaard' Lybicosaurus kwam uit =
de ondiepe zee=C3=ABn van het Lybische Sirt-bekken (Lihoreau 2006, Louchart=
2008, Munro 2010, Novello 2017).=20
> > =E2=80=A2 Orrorin (Milennium Man ~6 Ma), in 2000 ontdekt door Martin Pi=
ckford=E2=80=99s groep in Kenya, lag in een waterbos (~1200 mm/jaar regen) =
met nijlpaarden, slankapen, impala-achtigen en moeras-antilopes, verder nog=
een andere mensaap denkt men, duikers en waterdwerghertjes, drietenige paa=
rdjes en chalicothere onevenhoevigen, zwijn- en olifantachtigen met ronde k=
iezen, boomhyraxen, palmcivetten, galago=E2=80=99s, vleerhonden, boom- en a=
ndere knaagdieren, haasachtigen en neushoorns, grote otters, diverse vissen=
en zoetwatermosselen. Orrorin leek meer mens- en chimpachtig dan Sahelanth=
ropus, aldus professor Pickford, en had klim- en tweebenige kenmerken: een =
verticale wervelzuil? De grote dijbotkop leek mensachtiger dan bij australo=
pitheken en mensapen. De lange dijbothals hielp het been opzij bewegen, maa=
r hinderde rennen. Dijbothals en dijbot waren voorachterwaarts afgeplat zoa=
ls bij fossiele mensen en australopitheken (maar minder dan bij robben), ni=
et rond zoals bij mensapen, zeker niet zijlings afgeplat zoals bij dieren d=
ie veel rennen. Het eindkootje van de duim was zoals bij ons breder dan bij=
chimps, maar niet zo breed als bij boisei. Een handbotje was duidelijk gek=
romd: hangklimmen? Het gelaat was kort, de kiezen leken nogal klein, het ta=
ndglazuur =E2=80=93 met slijtage zoals bij ons, anders dan bij chimps =E2=
=80=93 was dikker dan bij Sahelanthropus en zeker Ardipithecus. Isotopen in=
tandglazuur wezen op een nijlpaard- of zwijnachtig dieet (Roche 2013). De =
oer-hominiden Sahelanthropus en Orrorin aten vooral fruit en water(kant)pla=
nten, vermoed ik, klommen vaak overarms, stapten en waadden vaker dan laagl=
andgorilla=E2=80=99s tweebenig in drasgrond, of dreven soms in ondiep water=
, kop en armen boven. Aquarboreaal?=20

> I do not know what you mean by pasting it, let me translate:=20

:-) Thanks, my boy. Some *explanations/corrections* by me:

> =E2=80=A2 Sahelanthropus ('Sahel Man', 'Touma=C3=AF' TM-266, 7=E2=80=936 =
Ma) is about halfway between Pierolapithecus and a small gorilla: conspicuo=
usly *heavy* eye-protective forehead ridge (~18 mm thick), brain no larger =
than in chimps ( ~365 cc), canine teeth smaller, molar enamel thicker, almo=
st like orangutans. Not a real *biped*, thinks Macchiarelli (2020), and Mar=
c Meyer (2022) also finds the strongly curved ulna chimp-like. The fossil c=
omes from a lake deposit in Chad, *at the time* a palm-rich freshwater area=
with fish, water turtles, monitor lizards, pythons, crocodiles, peacocks, =
swans, herons & snake-necked birds, various otters, porcupines & porcupines=
, slim monkeys, antelopes & giraffes, three-toed horses, pachyderms of all =
kinds, the anthracothere 'hippopotamus' Lybicosaurus emerged from the shall=
ow seas of the Lybian Sirt Basin (Lihoreau 2006, Louchart 2008, Munro 2010,=
Novello 2017).=20

> What can be the issue that our ancestors 7 millions years ago were quite =
ape-like?=20
> Genetic evidence suggests that we did split from chimps about 2 millions =
years later.=20
> It had indeed to drown in some swamp for fossil to preserve. That does no=
t say that it was=20
> aquatic.=20

My little little boy (grow up!! inform a bit!!), again, for the Xth time: I=
MO
-Mio-Pliocene Hominoidea were "aquarboreal"(google!!): BP wading-climbing i=
n swamp/coastal forest,
-early-Pleist.H.erectus frequently dived (you can call that "semi-aquatic")=
: brain++, pachyosteosclerosis, shell engravings, stone tools, island colon=
izations etc.,
okidoki??


> =E2=80=A2 Orrorin (Milennium Man ~6 Ma), discovered in 2000 by Martin Pic=
kford's group in Kenya, was in a water forest (~1200 mm/year of rain) with =
hippos, slender monkeys, impalas & swamp antelopes, and another great ape o=
ne thinks, divers & water pygmy deer, three-toed horses & chalicothere odd-=
toed ungulates, round-toothed boars & elephants, arboreal hyraxes, palm civ=
ets, galagos, megabats, arboreal & other rodents, lagomorphs & rhinoceroses=
, large otters, various fish & freshwater mussels. Orrorin appeared more hu=
man- & chimp-like than Sahelanthropus, says Professor Pickford, and had cli=
mbing & bipedal features: a vertical vertebral column? The large femoral he=
ad appeared more human-like than in australopiths & apes. The long thigh-bo=
ne helped the leg move sideways, but hindered running. Femoral neck & thigh=
-bone were flattened anterior-backward as in fossil humans & australopiths =
(but less than in seals), not round as in apes, certainly not laterally fla=
ttened as in animals that run a lot. The terminal phalanx of the thumb was =
wider than in chimps, as in us, but not as wide as in boisei. A hand-bone w=
as clearly curved: hanging climbing? The face was short, the molars seemed =
rather small, the tooth-enamel (with wear as in us, unlike in chimps) was t=
hicker than in Sahelanthropus & certainly Ardipithecus. Isotopes in tooth e=
namel indicated a hippo- or boar-like diet (Roche 2013).
The primeval hominids Sahelanthropus & Orrorin mainly ate fruits & *water(s=
ide)* plants, I suspect, often climbed overarms, walked & waded more often =
than lowland gorillas on 2 legs in wetlands, or sometimes floated in shallo=
w water, head & arms above. Aquaboreal?=20

> Some incoherent word salad ... who said our ancestors must run a lot? Eve=
n=20
> chimps can make spears and ambush their prey. Upright walking helps to=20
> carry weapons and tools, to fight, to harvest and to carry food to camp.

Yes, my boy, indeed: you talk incoherent word salad.

> > 2) They *far* predate the early-Pleistocene, when H.erectus frequently =
dived for shallow-aquatic foods: brain x2, DHA, pachy-osteo-sclerosis, ston=
e tools, shell engravings etc.etc.: early-Pleist.H.erectus can be called se=
mi-aquatic, but what on earth does that have to do with Sahelanthropus & Or=
rorin??=20

> You said --- << early-Miocene Hominoidea were already "bipedal" sensu "aq=
uarboreal" >>=20

Google "aquarboreal", my boy, and then come back!
Rest of your salad snipped.
-- end of forwarded message --
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  43. 2023-05-14 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] (fwd) Re: Human & ape evolution
  44. 2023-05-14 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] (fwd) Re: Human & ape evolution
  45. 2023-05-14 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] (fwd) Re: Human & ape evolution
  46. 2023-05-14 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] (fwd) Re: Human & ape evolution
  47. 2023-05-14 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] (fwd) Re: Human & ape evolution
  48. 2023-05-14 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] (fwd) Re: Human & ape evolution
  49. 2023-05-14 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] (fwd) Re: Human & ape evolution
  50. 2023-05-14 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] (fwd) Re: Human & ape evolution
  51. 2023-05-14 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] (fwd) Re: Human & ape evolution
  52. 2023-05-14 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] (fwd) Re: Human & ape evolution
  53. 2023-05-14 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] (fwd) Re: Human & ape evolution
  54. 2023-05-14 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] (fwd) Re: Human & ape evolution
  55. 2023-05-14 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] (fwd) Re: Human & ape evolution
  56. 2023-05-14 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] (fwd) Re: Human & ape evolution
  57. 2023-05-14 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] (fwd) Re: Human & ape evolution
  58. 2023-05-14 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] (fwd) Re: Human & ape evolution
  59. 2023-05-14 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] (fwd) Re: Human & ape evolution
  60. 2023-05-14 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] (fwd) Re: Human & ape evolution
  61. 2023-05-14 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] (fwd) Re: Human & ape evolution
  62. 2023-05-14 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] (fwd) Re: Human & ape evolution
  63. 2023-05-14 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] (fwd) Re: Human & ape evolution
  64. 2023-05-14 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] (fwd) Re: Human & ape evolution
  65. 2023-05-14 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] (fwd) Re: Human & ape evolution
  66. 2023-05-14 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] (fwd) Re: Human & ape evolution
  67. 2023-05-14 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] (fwd) Re: Human & ape evolution
  68. 2023-05-14 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] (fwd) Re: Human & ape evolution
  69. 2023-05-14 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] (fwd) Re: Human & ape evolution
  70. 2023-05-14 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] (fwd) Re: Human & ape evolution
  71. 2023-05-14 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] (fwd) Re: Human & ape evolution
  72. 2023-05-14 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] (fwd) Re: Human & ape evolution
  73. 2023-05-14 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] (fwd) Re: Human & ape evolution
  74. 2023-05-14 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] (fwd) Re: Human & ape evolution
  75. 2023-05-14 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] (fwd) Re: Human & ape evolution
  76. 2023-05-14 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] (fwd) Re: Human & ape evolution
  77. 2023-05-14 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] (fwd) Re: Human & ape evolution
  78. 2023-05-14 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] (fwd) Re: Human & ape evolution
  79. 2023-05-14 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] (fwd) Re: Human & ape evolution
  80. 2023-05-14 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] (fwd) Re: Human & ape evolution
  81. 2023-05-14 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] (fwd) Re: Human & ape evolution
  82. 2023-05-14 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] (fwd) Re: Human & ape evolution
  83. 2023-05-14 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] (fwd) Re: Human & ape evolution
  84. 2023-05-14 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] (fwd) Re: Human & ape evolution
  85. 2023-05-14 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] (fwd) Re: Human & ape evolution
  86. 2023-05-14 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] (fwd) Re: Human & ape evolution
  87. 2023-05-14 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Fwd: why bash in $0 ?
  88. 2023-05-14 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Fwd: Re: why bash in $0 ?
  89. 2023-05-15 Gabor Szabo <gabor-at-szabgab.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] [Perlweekly] #616 - Camel in India
  90. 2023-05-15 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] WSJ Legal Notices
  91. 2023-05-16 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] OK - We are here.... Thank You COVID
  92. 2023-05-15 From: "American Numismatic Society" <membership-at-numismatics.org> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] =?utf-8?q?This_week_at_the_ANS=E2=80=94May_19?=
  93. 2023-05-27 Joel Brobecker <brobecker-at-adacore.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] GDB 13.2 released!
  94. 2023-05-26 From: "American Numismatic Society" <membership-at-numismatics.org> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Join us for today's Long Table with David
  95. 2023-05-29 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Blue Ribbon Panel
  96. 2023-05-29 From: "American Numismatic Society" <membership-at-numismatics.org> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] =?utf-8?q?This_week_at_the_ANS=E2=80=94June_2?=
  97. 2023-05-29 Gabor Szabo <gabor-at-szabgab.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] [Perlweekly] #618 - Conference Season?
  98. 2023-05-30 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Fwd: One Year MBA in HC,
  99. 2023-05-31 ruth02-at-web.de Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] Weaponing the Justice system continues | |
  100. 2023-05-31 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] Weaponing the Justice system continues | |
  101. 2023-05-31 From: "Chaim Desser" <info-at-poelgroupstaffing.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] current positions to fill

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