MESSAGE
| DATE | 2002-08-22 |
| FROM | Ruben Safir
|
| SUBJECT | Re: [hangout] RE: Causative reasons for the Civil War
|
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Thu, 22 Aug 2002 15:42:54 -0400
Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 15:42:54 -0400
From: Ruben Safir
To: Michael Richardson
Cc: "'Vilensky, Alex'" , "'Ruben Safir'" ,
Matus Telgarsky , hangout-at-nylxs.com
Subject: Re: [hangout] RE: Causative reasons for the Civil War
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This is just a flat out untruth.
Prove now with historical fact, and don't leave out all those
events I already posted which conclussively proves that slavery was
the key, if not sole, cuase of the Civil war which (BTW) began in
the Kansas Terriorty around 1850.
On Thu, Aug 22, 2002 at 02:41:33PM -0400, Michael Richardson wrote:
> Slavery was a minor factor not major. In fact the war was not concerned
> with slavery util the emancipation proclamation Which was not a legal
> document at the time it was issued. It was only issued to tie up
> confederate troops.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Vilensky, Alex [mailto:AlexV-at-ilx.com]
> Sent: Thursday, August 22, 2002 2:37 PM
> To: 'Ruben Safir'; Michael Richardson
> Cc: Matus Telgarsky; hangout-at-nylxs.com
> Subject: RE: [hangout] RE: Causative reasons for the Civil War
>
>
> While slavery was one of the major factors in the civil war, Lincoln
> would've never been able to start the war if it was the only factor, because
> Blacks were hated as much as the Jews in the North and abolitionists' views
> were concidered too radical by many "common" people.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Ruben Safir [mailto:ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com]
> Sent: Thursday, August 22, 2002 2:15 PM
> To: Michael Richardson
> Cc: 'Ruben Safir'; Vilensky, Alex; Matus Telgarsky; hangout-at-nylxs.com
> Subject: Re: [hangout] RE: Causative reasons for the Civil War
>
>
> What does the war aims have to do with the causes of the war?
>
> Stop being a victem of the racists who described history for their
> own justification. Read the 1856 speach by Congressman Charles Summer of
> Massachusetts title "The Crime Against Kansas", the political position of
> the "Free-soilers" and the speaches of Andrew Bulter of South Carolina,
> which then caused Bulters relatives to rush into the Senate and beat
> Summer unconscious.
>
> Over the slavery issue everyone then came to COngress armed and often
> pulled them out in the heat of debate.
>
>
> Denying Slavery as the causitive factor of the War is nothing different
> than Denying the Holocaust...there is just no historical justification
> for this opinion, accept to believe the racist bigotry which was spun
> as an explanation for the events. All the events of American between
> 1840-1863
> history have to be rewritten to accomadate such bullshit. What was the
> battle over the Kansas-Nebraska act about then, and why did the history of
> Kansas
> called "Bloody KAnsas" and why was the elections rigged in become rigged by
> Slave proponents in Kansas in the states sovornty election, and why did
> people
> cross the boarder from MO. to KA. just to rig the election, What was the
> Lecompton constition about? Why did the Whig Paerty dissolve in the 1860
> election? Why did Licon's speaches in the 1850's center on slavery as
> a subverssive element of American Ideals and Democracy (which IS what he
> said),
> What was the book, published in 1859, "The Impending Crisis of the South",
> by Hinton R Helper, and why did it delay the election of the House Presiding
> Officer for 2 months, what was the John Brown incident in 1859, and why were
>
> Wendell Phillips and Ralph Waldo Emerson considered traitor in the South
> afterwards. Why did the Western Democrats storm out the Democratic
> convention
> in 1860? nd so on.
>
>
> How much historical fact do you want to deny defendening the racist
> interpretation
> that the Civil War was over "States Rights" and not caused over the fight to
> spread slavery in the Union? That WAS THE RIGHT THE SOUTH SECEDED FOR.
>
> The civil war didn't start with Lincon's election, it started in the Kansas
> Territory where Southerns and Free Soil Westerners battled with arms for
> years,
> and where John Brown got his political education and exported the War to
> Virginia,
> right up to the eventual firing on Fort Sumter. There was NO WAY the war
> could
> haved ended with Slavery intact. The Majority of the people in the north
> wanted
> a flat out end to slavery from the start of the birth of the Republican
> party.
>
> I would like to point out that "Uncle Tom's Cabin" sold over 300,000 copies
> in
> the FIRST YEARS it was published.....
> For G-d Sake, how much more evidence do you need..
>
>
> In 1820 the south was 46.7 of the total US Population with 45.1 percent of
> the electorial college, and by 1860 it was 39.1 percent and 35% of the
> college.
>
> They were arming the West to assure slavery in these territories long before
> the official decelaration of war.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Thu, Aug 22, 2002 at 11:23:49AM -0400, Michael Richardson wrote:
> >
> > The war aims as passed in the Critteden-Johnson Resolutions declared that
> > the war was waged to preserve the Union and states with their rights and
> > institutions unimpaired. That means they had not plan to abolish slavery
> > and under the Constitution they did not have that power. See US
> Constitution
> > Article 4 Section 2. In April 1865 Lee surrended. It was not until Dec
> 1865
> > that a resolution to amend the constitution was put forward and passed the
> > 13th Amendment which abolish slavery. Not the war.
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Ruben Safir [mailto:ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com]
> > Sent: Wednesday, August 21, 2002 4:55 PM
> > To: Michael Richardson
> > Cc: 'Ruben I Safir'; AlexV-at-ilx.com; Matus Telgarsky; hangout-at-nylxs.com
> > Subject: Causative reasons for the Civil War
> >
> >
> > THe cause of the civil war was the struggle between Free States and Slave
> > States
> > and the expanssion of the West.
> >
> >
> > Originally, the West was aligned with Slave states because most of the
> early
> >
> > Western expanssion (Missisppi, Alabama, and the Gulf States), but cotton
> > was not adequate for Kansas and Nebraska. The moral problem of Slavery
> > became increasingly a thorn in South West and Northern relations,
> especially
> > the problem of run away slaves and the importation of slave labor into
> > free labor zones.
> >
> > Eventually, the West saw it's economic tied developing with the Notrth
> East
> > and
> > the Rail Orad building and industrial ports for agricultural products on
> the
> > Atlantic Sea Board. Immigrants moving into the West increasingly resisted
> > Slavery
> > because of labor competition.
> >
> > This all stated to come to a boil with Bloody Kansas which destroyed the
> > Misouri Compromise (don't ask me to spell Missoroui).
> >
> > The issue for the south was that congressional balence of power was
> shifting
> > to
> > the anti-slavery forces in the north, which wanted to block savery for
> > economic
> > and moral reasons from enterying into the Kansas Territory.
> >
> > The straw that broke the camels back was the Texan Revoltion, which would
> > tip the balance but good. And Texases annexation into the US became
> > delayed.
> > Firthmore, it was apparent that the US was likely take Cuba from the
> > Spaniards
> > and it looked like Cuba would also become a state, a state of a large
> number
> > of
> > Free Blacks.
> >
> > Racism on the North and South both caused a denial of the basic problems
> of
> > these tenssions being both Slavery and the Slave economy, but every time
> > push came to shove, it reared it's head and needed resolution. With the
> > election
> > which lead to Lincon it became apearent to the South that it was
> > increasingly
> > isolated in the national government. Neither the West nor the East would
> > co-operate on issues of runaway slaves, or the expanssion of Slavery into
> > the
> > West. So they resigned from the Union. But that solved nothing because
> all
> > these Western Territories was still at issue, and the North refused to
> > disolve
> > the Union. EVEN WITHOUT THE FIRING ON FT SUMPTNER, the civil war would
> > have happened anyway because of the social aggetation, and the issue of
> the
> > Western Territories.
> >
> > It would have just happened in Nebraska first.
> >
> > There was a moral, economic and social impass, one which only became
> accute
> > when
> > the majority of European Settlers in the new world, and the soverign
> states
> > which they carved out refused on prinicple and economics to continue with
> a
> > slave based society.
> >
> > Everyone wanted to deny that they were fighting for the freedom of the
> > slaves,
> > because they were all racists. But it was never the less the soul and
> only
> > force pushing the conflict forward. Lincon rn under a moderate position
> on
> > these issues, and was forced over time to accept the reality that a post
> > civil
> > war America could not continue with two societies...one with slavery, and
> > one
> > without.
> >
> > It was a Theogolical, Societial, Political, and Economic fact. The only
> > real victory the North could obtain was one which emancipated the slaves.
> >
> > So in a word, Mike, you've brought into a racist interpretation of the
> Civil
> > War which blames the bloody event on anything they could accept the only
> > only
> > thing that REALLY MATTERED, which was an end to Slavery in the South.
> >
> > Ruben
> >
> >
> > On Wed, Aug 21, 2002 at 03:41:33PM -0400, Michael Richardson wrote:
> > > The library did not have the book. It will have to wait until I can go
> to
> > > the bookstore. The Civil War was about whether the Union would survive
> or
> > > not. Did the States have the power or the Federal Government.
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Ruben I Safir [mailto:ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com]
> > > Sent: Wednesday, August 21, 2002 3:07 PM
> > > To: Michael Richardson
> > > Cc: 'Ruben Safir'; Michael Richardson; AlexV-at-ilx.com; Matus Telgarsky;
> > > hangout-at-nylxs.com
> > > Subject: Re: [hangout] [dplist-admin-at-danielpipes.org: #247: Pipes &
> > > Schanz er on "Saddam's Rap Sheet"]
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Your trolling Mike
> > >
> > >
> > > And your not right about the war and salery.
> > >
> > > You brought into the racist writings of the preriod which did everything
> > > to explain the war as anything but one which was to 'free the niggers'
> > >
> > >
> > > But Freeing the Slaves was it's most essential elements, upon which all
> > the
> > > other
> > > problems secondarly evolved from.
> > >
> > >
> > > See Bloody Kansas for historical refernce
> > >
> > > Ruben
> > >
> > > On 2002.08.21 14:54 Michael Richardson wrote:
> > > > If we live in fear of being nuked and let that determine how we live
> and
> > > act
> > > > then they have achieved their goal. The people of this country may
> have
> > a
> > > > moral compass but most of those that run this county do not. (both
> > elected
> > > > and Business wise). Having a moral compass and not insisting that it
> be
> > > > used is our countries problem. Look at your history books again. At
> > the
> > > > real causes of the civil war. Slavery was a minor issue that got a
> lot
> > of
> > > > press. It was not the cause of the war. Not one slave was freed by
> the
> > > > war. Read the emancipation proclamation. Don't just believe what
> > > everyone
> > > > else says it said.
> > > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: Ruben Safir [mailto:ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com]
> > > > Sent: Wednesday, August 21, 2002 10:13 AM
> > > > To: Michael Richardson
> > > > Cc: 'Vilensky, Alex'; 'Ruben I Safir'; Matus Telgarsky;
> > > > hangout-at-nylxs.com
> > > > Subject: Re: [hangout] [dplist-admin-at-danielpipes.org: #247: Pipes &
> > > > Schanz er on "Saddam's Rap Sheet"]
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Wed, Aug 21, 2002 at 09:54:47AM -0400, Michael Richardson wrote:
> > > > > We need to look at our past, so we don't (hopefully) make the same
> > > > mistakes.
> > > > > What we see as doing our best, they see as a snare into servitude.
> > We
> > > > are
> > > > > the only country that believes the whitewashed press releases that
> we
> > > have
> > > > > been writing for the past 200+ years.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > This is Gibberish. Do yop think the Europeans are in a position to
> make
> > a
> > >
> > > > judgment on the US.
> > > >
> > > > They wouldn't know freedom if it came and kicked them in the teeth.
> > > >
> > > > The world judges us on the resentful inferiority complexes and
> > > > bigoted biases.
> > > >
> > > > Or let's look at Africa!
> > > > nope
> > > > Southeast Asia?
> > > > Nope
> > > > Hmmm --- yeah
> > > >
> > > > You know what, this remains the only major nation on Earth with a
> moral
> > > > compass.
> > > >
> > > > You can wax poetic about not trusting the government and the terrors
> of
> > > the
> > > > US, and the "blood on our hands"
> > > > You have no idea Mike. Your interpretation of American History
> > > > is a little skewed by prejudgement.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > And the danger from Iraq is real, and not imaginary. I have no faith
> > > > in the judgement of the Europeans of the Canadians, or ex-Bush
> officials
> > > > on this matter.
> > > >
> > > > This MAN will Nuke NY. And he'll do it without a second though.
> > > >
> > > > BTW - your statement about the Civil War not being over emancipation
> > > > is just incorrect. By the end of the war, every racist in the North
> had
> > > to
> > > > face the fact that they just fought for 3 years over emancipation,
> > whether
> > > > they
> > > > liked it or not.
> > > >
> > > > There was no WAY that they were going back to a slavce system in the
> > south
> > > > after all that.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > People around the world judge us by
> > > > > our track record not by what we say. Remember this is a country
> that
> > > not
> > > > > only lies to its people but does kill them while claiming to be
> "Miss
> > > > goody
> > > > > two shoes". don't get me wrong I would rather be here than in any
> > other
> > > > > country. But I believe that the founding fathers added the Bill of
> > > Rights
> > > > > to the Constitution because they did not trust the government they
> put
> > > > > together. NETHER WE SHOULD WE.
> > > > >
> > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > From: Vilensky, Alex [mailto:AlexV-at-ilx.com]
> > > > > Sent: Tuesday, August 20, 2002 5:10 PM
> > > > > To: 'Michael Richardson'; 'Ruben I Safir'
> > > > > Cc: Matus Telgarsky; hangout-at-nylxs.com
> > > > > Subject: RE: [hangout] [dplist-admin-at-danielpipes.org: #247: Pipes &
> > > > > Schanz er on "Saddam's Rap Sheet"]
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > The answer is yes, we do have a bloody history just like every other
> > > > nation
> > > > > on earth. What we don't want to do is take responisibility for the
> > sins
> > > of
> > > > > our forefathers. Some of what they did (and not all of them
> > participated
> > > > in
> > > > > it) was wrong. What makes us different is the desire to do something
> > > right
> > > > > and not look back in the past. Do we concider ourselves worthy of
> > being
> > > > > alive? Do you think that by upholding the principles of cooperation,
> > > > spread
> > > > > of knowledge, tolerance and unity you deserve a chance to make a
> > > > difference
> > > > > in the lives of many people? Doesn't the fact that we are doing our
> > best
> > > > to
> > > > > promote the use of Linux in the very countries that hate us with a
> > > passion
> > > > > entitle us to doing our work and not be slaughtered by some maniac
> who
> > > > wants
> > > > > to make a statement?
> > > > >
> > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > From: Michael Richardson [mailto:MRICHARDSON-at-abc.state.ny.us]
> > > > > Sent: Tuesday, August 20, 2002 4:40 PM
> > > > > To: Vilensky, Alex; 'Ruben I Safir'
> > > > > Cc: Matus Telgarsky; hangout-at-nylxs.com
> > > > > Subject: RE: [hangout] [dplist-admin-at-danielpipes.org: #247: Pipes &
> > > > > Schanz er on "Saddam's Rap Sheet"]
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Our founding fathers did not want to pay taxes. That was why the
> > wrote
> > > > the
> > > > > Declaration of Independence. Life was put it because they knew
> they
> > > were
> > > > > signing their death warrant. liberty because as long as they had
> > their
> > > > > liberty they had their lives. Happiness because they were happy to
> be
> > > > > alive. The United States of America had Blood on it's hands before
> it
> > > > > became a Nation (French and Indian wars). This Nation was born in
> > Blood
> > > > > (the Revolution) second round in 1812. The Alamo, Spanish American
> > war,
> > > > did
> > > > > I say that this Country broke every treaty that was signed with the
> > > Native
> > > > > American Indian? while killing as many as possible in as many was
> as
> > > was
> > > > > possible? When this Country could not find anyone to fight we chose
> > up
> > > > > sides and fought ourselves. The Civil War (Bloodiest on record) had
> > > > nothing
> > > > > to do with slavery (NOT ONE SLAVE WAS FREEDED BECAUSE OF IT). Read
> > the
> > > > > Emancipation Proclamation if you don't believe me. The war to end
> all
> > > > wars
> > > > > we wanted no part of. We went in anyway. W.W.II we supplied
> everyone
> > > (I
> > > > am
> > > > > not sure about the Germany). Korea was McArther's bid for
> Chesarship.
> > > > > Vietnam Johnson said was a nice little war to get involed in.
> Granada
> > > was
> > > > > just a little exercise. Desert Storm was about protecting oil. For
> a
> > > > young
> > > > > nation we have a lot of blood on our hands which has nothing to do
> > with
> > > > what
> > > > > this country says it stand for. (This country stands for Money and
> > > > nothing
> > > > > else). And this does not get into the blood of the citizens of this
> > > > country
> > > > > that was spilled.
> > > > >
> > > > > PS I won't be able to respond until latter tonight or tomorrow.
> > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > From: Vilensky, Alex [mailto:AlexV-at-ilx.com]
> > > > > Sent: Tuesday, August 20, 2002 4:09 PM
> > > > > To: 'Michael Richardson'; 'Ruben I Safir'
> > > > > Cc: Matus Telgarsky; hangout-at-nylxs.com
> > > > > Subject: RE: [hangout] [dplist-admin-at-danielpipes.org: #247: Pipes &
> > > > > Schanz er on "Saddam's Rap Sheet"]
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > What makes some of us different is the absence of hatred. We do what
> > we
> > > do
> > > > > not out of hatred for Saddam, but because we need to save our lives
> > and,
> > > > > also, because we stand for the principles that built our country:
> > life,
> > > > > liberty and pursuit of happiness.
> > > > >
> > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > From: Michael Richardson [mailto:MRICHARDSON-at-abc.state.ny.us]
> > > > > Sent: Tuesday, August 20, 2002 3:48 PM
> > > > > To: 'Ruben I Safir'
> > > > > Cc: Vilensky, Alex; Matus Telgarsky; hangout-at-nylxs.com
> > > > > Subject: RE: [hangout] [dplist-admin-at-danielpipes.org: #247: Pipes &
> > > > > Schanz er on "Saddam's Rap Sheet"]
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Empires are about money and power the hate is fermented to get the
> > mass
> > > to
> > > > > go along and not think. Take a look at all empires or countries
> that
> > > have
> > > > > been and are currently existence. You will notice that the
> bloodiest
> > > > > religious cleansing and regions occur at the time of expansion or
> > > > > consolidation. The hate works on the idea that the other guy is not
> > of
> > > > the
> > > > > people.
> > > > >
> > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > From: Ruben I Safir [mailto:ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com]
> > > > > Sent: Tuesday, August 20, 2002 3:36 PM
> > > > > To: Michael Richardson
> > > > > Cc: AlexV-at-ilx.com; Michael Richardson; 'Ruben I Safir'; Matus
> > Telgarsky;
> > > > > hangout-at-nylxs.com
> > > > > Subject: Re: [hangout] [dplist-admin-at-danielpipes.org: #247: Pipes &
> > > > > Schanz er on "Saddam's Rap Sheet"]
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > That's why they attack.
> > > > >
> > > > > I though they attack because Sadam Hussain has grand visions of
> empire
> > > > > srinkled with a heavey does of anti-semitism, and and Kurdish
> > > tendencies.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Are you sure?
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Ruben
> > > > >
> > > > > On 2002.08.20 15:16 Michael Richardson wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > They do what they do to America because they believe or feel that
> we
> > > > have
> > > > > > backed them into a corner with no other way out. give them a way
> > out!
> > > > > >
> > > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > > From: Vilensky, Alex [mailto:AlexV-at-ilx.com]
> > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, August 20, 2002 3:09 PM
> > > > > > To: 'Michael Richardson'; 'Ruben I Safir'; Matus Telgarsky
> > > > > > Cc: hangout-at-nylxs.com
> > > > > > Subject: RE: [hangout] [dplist-admin-at-danielpipes.org: #247: Pipes
> &
> > > > > > Schanz er on "Saddam's Rap Sheet"]
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > OK, I accept their right to live their life the way they want it.
> > Will
> > > > > that
> > > > > > stop Saddam and Osama from going on with their plans to
> exterminate
> > > > > > Americans?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > > From: Michael Richardson [mailto:MRICHARDSON-at-abc.state.ny.us]
> > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, August 20, 2002 2:57 PM
> > > > > > To: Vilensky, Alex; Michael Richardson; 'Ruben I Safir'; Matus
> > > Telgarsky
> > > > > > Cc: hangout-at-nylxs.com
> > > > > > Subject: RE: [hangout] [dplist-admin-at-danielpipes.org: #247: Pipes
> &
> > > > > > Schanz er on "Saddam's Rap Sheet"]
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > No we need to accept that other people have their own life and are
> > > there
> > > > > > existence is not at our whim, also to be honest and fair with
> them.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > > From: Vilensky, Alex [mailto:AlexV-at-ilx.com]
> > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, August 20, 2002 2:54 PM
> > > > > > To: 'Michael Richardson'; 'Ruben I Safir'; Matus Telgarsky
> > > > > > Cc: hangout-at-nylxs.com
> > > > > > Subject: RE: [hangout] [dplist-admin-at-danielpipes.org: #247: Pipes
> &
> > > > > > Schanz er on "Saddam's Rap Sheet"]
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I agree with you, but what's the alternative? Should we wait for
> > > another
> > > > > > mega-attack on our soil?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > > From: Michael Richardson [mailto:MRICHARDSON-at-abc.state.ny.us]
> > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, August 20, 2002 2:11 PM
> > > > > > To: 'Ruben I Safir'; Matus Telgarsky
> > > > > > Cc: hangout-at-nylxs.com
> > > > > > Subject: RE: [hangout] [dplist-admin-at-danielpipes.org: #247: Pipes
> &
> > > > > > Schanz er on "Saddam's Rap Sheet"]
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Right now attacking Saddam will just be a smoke screen to get the
> > > > American
> > > > > > people to go along with the program of giving up OUR RIGHTS AS
> GIVEN
> > > US
> > > > > > UNDER THE US CONSTITUTION. War as always been the best way to get
> > us
> > > to
> > > > > > give up our rights without to much vocal resistance. Also look at
> > who
> > > > > goes
> > > > > > to war (not the polications who votes for it). Who makes the
> money
> > > from
> > > > > it?
> > > > > > Make no mistake war is primary about money. second is power. God
> is
> > > > used
> > > > > to
> > > > > > Jusifty the first two without talking about them.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > > From: Ruben I Safir [mailto:ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com]
> > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, August 20, 2002 1:55 PM
> > > > > > To: Matus Telgarsky
> > > > > > Cc: hangout-at-nylxs.com
> > > > > > Subject: Re: [hangout] [dplist-admin-at-danielpipes.org: #247: Pipes
> &
> > > > > > Schanz er on "Saddam's Rap Sheet"]
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > That would be "BOINK" - not right and without evidence of
> historical
> > > > fact.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > See Indian - American
> > > > > > See - like nearly every historical slaughter going back to
> > Ur.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Micheal was right, G Bush should have done it the first time.
> > Leaving
> > > > > Iraq
> > > > > > with it's missle research lab and nuclear program intact, and
> > > oppressive
> > > > > > political
> > > > > > regien with it's bigoted hatred of minories, Kurds and Jews in
> place
> > > was
> > > > a
> > > > > > HUGE ERROR.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Ruben
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > as far as history, this is the case with every instance of
> > > > > > oppression-revolt,
> > > > > > > attack-counterattack.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > On Tue, 20 Aug 2002 12:53:41 -0400 Ruben I Safir
> > >
> > > > > > > Deliberately scrawled:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > There is no historical precidendence for this.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > This is jibberish
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > On 2002.08.20 12:42 Matus Telgarsky wrote:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > The more we are aggressive, the more we insure a
> counterattack
> > > > > (likely
> > > > > > a
> > > > > > > > > nuke).
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > You don't fight hate and/or guerilla/terrorist tactics the
> way
> > > you
> > > > > > fight a
> > > > > > > > > standing army.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > -mateurasjkfk
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > On Tue, 20 Aug 2002 12:09:08 -0400 Ruben I Safir
> > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Deliberately scrawled:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > I don't want NYC Nuked
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > I really don't CARE about anything else in this matter.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > On 2002.08.20 11:50 Ray Connolly wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > I think the mistake your refering to is WWII
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > > > > > > > From: Ruben I Safir [mailto:ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com]
> > > > > > > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, August 20, 2002 11:37 AM
> > > > > > > > > > > To: Michael Richardson
> > > > > > > > > > > Cc: 'Ruben Safir'; hangout-at-www2.mrbrklyn.com
> > > > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [hangout] [dplist-admin-at-danielpipes.org:
> > #247:
> > > > > Pipes
> > > > > > &
> > > > > > > > > > > Schanz er on "Saddam's Rap Sheet"]
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Sadam Hussain is a Neo-Nazi with genocidal tendenacies
> who
> > > > will
> > > > > > have
> > > > > > > > > > > Nuclear Weapons
> > > > > > > > > > > pointed at New York in a year or less.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > No thank you. We've made this mistake once and it cost
> us
> > > the
> > > > > > World
> > > > > > > > > > > Trade Center.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > I do not want to nuked...........
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > On 2002.08.20 11:28 Michael Richardson wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > As long as he was doing what the US wanted he was ok
> to
> > be
> > > > in
> > > > > > office.
> > > > > > > > > > > when
> > > > > > > > > > > > he started doing what was in his best interest he
> became
> > a
> > > > bad
> > > > > > guy. I
> > > > > > > > > > > > believe he invade Kuwait because he was assured that
> the
> > > US
> > > > > > would not
> > > > > > > > > > > > interfere. the US has a history of putting and
> > supporting
> > > > > > people in
> > > > > > > > > > > > power who do what the US wants until they stop doing
> > what
> > > > the
> > > > > US
> > > > > > wants
> > > > > > > > > > > > then they become the "Bad Guy". This is not the time
> to
> > > get
> > > > > > involved
> > > > > > > > > > > > with Saddam. Without world support we will be seen as
> > > being
> > > > in
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > wrong (right now the US needs all the good will it can
> > > > > muster.)
> > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > > > > > > > > From: Ruben Safir [mailto:ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com]
> > > > > > > > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, August 20, 2002 11:21 AM
> > > > > > > > > > > > To: hangout-at-www2.mrbrklyn.com
> > > > > > > > > > > > Subject: [hangout] [dplist-admin-at-danielpipes.org:
> #247:
> > > > Pipes
> > > > > &
> > > > > > > > > > > > Schanzer on "Saddam's Rap Sheet"]
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Forwarded message from
> > dplist-admin-at-danielpipes.org
> > > > > -----
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Delivered-To: dplist-at-pairlist.net
> > > > > > > > > > > > Delivered-To:
> > > grayson-danielpipes:org-dplist-at-danielpipes.org
> > > > > > > > > > > > X-pair-Authenticated: 62.219.240.145
> > > > > > > > > > > > To:
> > > > > > > > > > > > Subject: #247: Pipes & Schanzer on "Saddam's Rap
> Sheet"
> > > > > > > > > > > > Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 17:11:24 +0200
> > > > > > > > > > > > X-Priority: 3 (Normal)
> > > > > > > > > > > > X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
> > > > > > > > > > > > X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416
> > > (9.0.2911.0)
> > > > > > > > > > > > X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE
> V6.00.2600.0000
> > > > > > > > > > > > Importance: Normal
> > > > > > > > > > > > From: dplist-admin-at-danielpipes.org
> > > > > > > > > > > > Errors-To: dplist-admin-at-danielpipes.org
> > > > > > > > > > > > X-BeenThere: dplist-at-danielpipes.org
> > > > > > > > > > > > X-Mailman-Version: 2.0
> > > > > > > > > > > > Precedence: bulk
> > > > > > > > > > > > Reply-To: MeqMef-at-aol.com
> > > > > > > > > > > > X-Reply-To: dplist-at-danielpipes.org
> > > > > > > > > > > > List-Help:
> > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > List-Post:
> > > > > > > > > > > > List-Subscribe:
> > > > > > ,
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > List-Id: Writings by Daniel Pipes
> >
> > > > > > > > > > > > List-Unsubscribe:
> > > > > > ,
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Saddam's Rap Sheet
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > by Daniel Pipes and Jonathan Schanzer
> > > > > > > > > > > > New York Post
> > > > > > > > > > > > August 20, 2002
> > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.danielpipes.org/article/444
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > http://www.nypost.com/postopinion/opedcolumnists/55073.htm
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Consider the paradox: Almost every government agrees
> > that
> > > > > Iraqi
> > > > > > > > > > > > dictator Saddam Hussein is an appalling monster and
> > > shudders
> > > > > at
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > prospect of his acquiring nuclear weapons. Yet those
> > same
> > > > > > governments
> > > > > > > > > > > > are also furiously signaling their disapproval of an
> > > > > > American-led
> > > > > > > > > > > > military effort to depose him.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > That would be "risky adventurism," declares Germany's
> > > > > Chancellor
> > > > > > > > > > > > Gerhard Schroeder; Saddam poses no immediate threat,
> and
> > > > > > Washington
> > > > > > > > > > > > lacks a justification to attack him. Most U.S. allies
> > > > > worldwide
> > > > > > agree.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > But they are plain wrong. Saddam is an immediate
> menace,
> > > and
> > > > > the
> > > > > > U.S.
> > > > > > > > > > > > government has cause to preempt him. Here's why:
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > * Record. Saddam has a history of unrelenting
> > aggression.
> > > He
> > > > > > invaded
> > > > > > > > > > > > Iran
> > > > > > > > > > > in
> > > > > > > > > > > > 1980. He conquered Kuwait in 1990. He assaulted Saudi
> > > Arabia
> > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > > > > Israel
> > > > > > > > > > > with
> > > > > > > > > > > > missiles in 1991. He's shot at U.S. and British
> aircraft
> > > in
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > "no-fly zone" since 1992. He attacked the Kurdish
> > regional
> > > > > > enclave in
> > > > > > > > > > > > 1996.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > He also has many links to terrorism. Iraq harbors
> Abdul
> > > > Rahman
> > > > > > Yasin,
> > > > > > > > > > > > one
> > > > > > > > > > > of
> > > > > > > > > > > > the gang that bombed the World Trade Center in 1993.
> It
> > > also
> > > > > > hosted
> > > > > > > > > > > > the notorious Palestinian terrorist Abu Nidal, just
> > found
> > > > dead
> > > > > > in
> > > > > > > > > > > > Baghdad. He encourages Hamas suicide bombers by paying
> > > > $10,000
> > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > > > their families. His terrorists tried to assassinate
> > former
> > > > > > President
> > > > > > > > > > > > George H.W. Bush and the emir of Kuwait. An Iraqi
> > diplomat
> > > > met
> > > > > > with al
> > > > > > > > > > > > Qaeda's Mohammad Atta before the Sept. 11 suicide
> > mission.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > * Casus belli. Saddam has a history of violating
> > > > international
> > > > > > law and
> > > > > > > > > > > > developing illegal weapons.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > In February 1991, he signed an agreement accepting all
> > > U.N.
> > > > > > Security
> > > > > > > > > > > Council
> > > > > > > > > > > > resolutions passed after his invasion of Kuwait seven
> > > months
> > > > > > earlier.
> > > > > > > > > > > > He recognized Resolution 687, which demands Iraq's
> > weapons
> > > > of
> > > > > > mass
> > > > > > > > > > > destruction
> > > > > > > > > > > > (WMD) be "destroyed, removed or rendered harmless,"
> and
> > > > > requires
> > > > > > > > > > > inspectors
> > > > > > > > > > > > be allowed into Iraq.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > But Saddam then played "cat and mouse" with the
> > inspectors
> > > > by
> > > > > > > > > > > > withholding information, dissimulating and hiding
> > > materiel.
> > > > > > "Iraq
> > > > > > > > > > > > released detailed records of how many ballpoint pens
> it
> > > > > ordered
> > > > > > in the
> > > > > > > > > > > > late 1980s," noted a U.S. government report in 1998,
> but
> > > > left
> > > > > > out
> > > > > > > > > > > > vital information about its"missile warheads capable
> of
> > > > > > delivering
> > > > > > > > > > > > biological and chemical agents."
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Nonetheless, over seven years, inspectors did destroy
> at
> > > > least
> > > > > > 27,000
> > > > > > > > > > > > chemical bombs, artillery shells and rockets, 500 tons
> > of
> > > > > > mustard and
> > > > > > > > > > > nerve
> > > > > > > > > > > > agents and thousands of tons of precursor chemicals.
> > They
> > > > > > dissembled
> > > > > > > > > > > > much
> > > > > > > > > > > of
> > > > > > > > > > > > Iraq's nuclear program, which was further along than
> > > > > previously
> > > > > > > > > > > > thought - and which had continued in violation of
> > > Resolution
> > > > > > 687.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Then, in August 1998, Saddam accurately read the
> Clinton
> > > > > > > > > > > > administration's mood and closed the door to further
> > > > > > inspections,
> > > > > > > > > > > > correctly figuring he
> > > > > > > > > > > would
> > > > > > > > > > > > not have to pay a price for this unilateral abrogation
> > of
> > > > his
> > > > > > > > > > > > promises.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > * Dangers. Saddam has unquestionably used the past
> four
> > > > years
> > > > > to
> > > > > > build
> > > > > > > > > > > WMD.
> > > > > > > > > > > > Adnan Saeed al-Haideri, an Iraqi civil engineer and a
> > > recent
> > > > > > defector,
> > > > > > > > > > > > informed the Defense Intelligence Agency that Saddam
> is
> > > > > building
> > > > > > > > > > > biological
> > > > > > > > > > > > and chemical weapons in eight locations throughout
> Iraq.
> > > > > Khidhir
> > > > > > > > > > > > Hamza, former chief nuclear scientist for Saddam's
> > nuclear
> > > > > > weapons
> > > > > > > > > > > > development program and another Iraqi defector,
> > estimates
> > > > Iraq
> > > > > > now has
> > > > > > > > > > > > "12 tons of uranium and 1.3 tons of low-enriched
> > uranium"
> > > > and
> > > > > > asserts
> > > > > > > > > > > > that Saddam will have "three to five nuclear weapons
> by
> > > > 2005."
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Richard Butler, former chief U.N. weapons inspector,
> > says
> > > it
> > > > > is
> > > > > > > > > > > > "foolish
> > > > > > > > > > > in
> > > > > > > > > > > > the extreme" to believe that Saddam is not hard at
> work
> > on
> > > > > > long-range
> > > > > > > > > > > > missiles, and nuclear, chemical and biological
> weaponry.
> > > If
> > > > > > Saddam
> > > > > > > > > > > > does
> > > > > > > > > > > get
> > > > > > > > > > > > his hands on nuclear weapons, he will exploit them
> > fully.
> > > He
> > > > > is
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > only ruler in power already to have used WMD - having
> > > > deployed
> > > > > > poison
> > > > > > > > > > > > gases against both Iranians and his own Kurdish
> > > population.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > President Bush is therefore right to state that the
> > United
> > > > > > States must
> > > > > > > > > > > > "confront the worst threats before they emerge." With
> no
> > > > other
> > > > > > means
> > > > > > > > > > > > to dismantle Saddam's arsenal and protect against
> future
> > > > > > aggression,
> > > > > > > > > > > > this leaves a military campaign as the only option -
> and
> > > the
> > > > > > sooner it
> > > > > > > > > > > > begins, the better for us all.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > To subscribe to or unsubscribe from this list, go to
> > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/dplist
> > > > > > > > > > > > Daniel Pipes sends out a mailing of his writings
> > > > approximately
> > > > > > twice
> > > > > > > > > > > > per week.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > To comment on the article, please go to
> > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.danielpipes.org/article/444#comment
> > > > > > > > > > > > Most articles are also available online at:
> > > > > > http://www.DanielPipes.org
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > To receive television alerts, event invitations,
> lecture
> > > > > > summaries,
> > > > > > > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > > > news
> > > > > > > > > > > > releases from the Middle East Forum, please sign up
> for
> > > the
> > > > > > MEFnews
> > > > > > > > > > > mailing
> > > > > > > > > > > > list at:
> > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/mefnews
> > > > > > > > > > > > Please note: these do not duplicate the DPlist
> mailings
> > > > (such
> > > > > > as this
> > > > > > > > > > > one).
> > > > > > > > > > > > Also, you are invited to visit the MEF site at:
> > > > > > http://www.meforum.org
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > ----- End forwarded message -----
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Brooklyn Linux Solutions
> > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________
> > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.mrbrklyn.com - Consulting
> > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.nylxs.com/radio - Free Software Radio Show
> > and
> > > > > > Archives
> > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.brooklynonline.com - For the love of
> Brooklyn
> > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.nylxs.com - Leadership Development in Free
> > > > Software
> > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.nyfairuse.org - The foundation of Democracy
> > > > > > > > > > > > http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/resources - Unpublished
> Archive
> > > or
> > > > > > stories
> > > > > > > > > > > > and articles from around the net
> > > > > > > > > > > > http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/mp3/dr.mp3 - Imagine my
> > surprise
> > > > when
> > > > > I
> > > > > > saw
> > > > > > > > > > > you...
> > > > > > > > > > > > http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/downtown.html - See the New
> > > > Downtown
> > > > > > > > > > > > Brooklyn....
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > 1-718-382-5752
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > ____________________________
> > > > > > > > > > > > New Yorker Free Software Users Scene
> > > > > > > > > > > > Fair Use -
> > > > > > > > > > > > because it's either fair use or useless....
> > > > > > > > > > > > ____________________________
> > > > > > > > > > > > New Yorker Free Software Users Scene
> > > > > > > > > > > > Fair Use -
> > > > > > > > > > > > because it's either fair use or useless....
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > > > > > __________________________
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Brooklyn Linux Solutions
> > > > > > > > > > > __________________________
> > > > > > > > > > > http://www.mrbrklyn.com - Consulting
> > > > > > > > > > > http://www.nylxs.com/radio - Free Software Radio Show
> and
> > > > > Archives
> > > > > > > > > > > http://www.brooklynonline.com - For the love of Brooklyn
> > > > > > > > > > > http://www.nylxs.com - Leadership Development in Free
> > > Software
> > > > > > > > > > > http://www.nyfairuse.org - The foundation of Democracy
> > > > > > > > > > > http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/resources - Unpublished Archive
> > or
> > > > > > stories and
> > > > > > > > > > > articles from around the net
> > > > > > > > > > > http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/mp3/dr.mp3 - Imagine my
> surprise
> > > when
> > > > I
> > > > > > saw
> > > > > > > > > > > you... http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/downtown.html - See the
> > New
> > > > > > Downtown
> > > > > > > > > > > Brooklyn....
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > 1-718-382-5752
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > ____________________________
> > > > > > > > > > > New Yorker Free Software Users Scene
> > > > > > > > > > > Fair Use -
> > > > > > > > > > > because it's either fair use or useless....
> > > > > > > > > > > ____________________________
> > > > > > > > > > > New Yorker Free Software Users Scene
> > > > > > > > > > > Fair Use -
> > > > > > > > > > > because it's either fair use or useless....
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > > > > __________________________
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Brooklyn Linux Solutions
> > > > > > > > > > __________________________
> > > > > > > > > > http://www.mrbrklyn.com - Consulting
> > > > > > > > > > http://www.nylxs.com/radio - Free Software Radio Show and
> > > > Archives
> > > > > > > > > > http://www.brooklynonline.com - For the love of Brooklyn
> > > > > > > > > > http://www.nylxs.com - Leadership Development in Free
> > Software
> > > > > > > > > > http://www.nyfairuse.org - The foundation of Democracy
> > > > > > > > > > http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/resources - Unpublished Archive
> or
> > > > > stories
> > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > > articles from around the net
> > > http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/mp3/dr.mp3
> > > > -
> > > > > > Imagine
> > > > > > > > > > my surprise when I saw you...
> > > > > http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/downtown.html
> > > > > > - See
> > > > > > > > > > the New Downtown Brooklyn....
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > 1-718-382-5752
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > ____________________________
> > > > > > > > > > New Yorker Free Software Users Scene
> > > > > > > > > > Fair Use -
> > > > > > > > > > because it's either fair use or useless....
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > > __________________________
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Brooklyn Linux Solutions
> > > > > > > > __________________________
> > > > > > > > http://www.mrbrklyn.com - Consulting
> > > > > > > > http://www.nylxs.com/radio - Free Software Radio Show and
> > Archives
> > > > > > > > http://www.brooklynonline.com - For the love of Brooklyn
> > > > > > > > http://www.nylxs.com - Leadership Development in Free Software
> > > > > > > > http://www.nyfairuse.org - The foundation of Democracy
> > > > > > > > http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/resources - Unpublished Archive or
> > > stories
> > > > > and
> > > > > > > > articles from around the net
> http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/mp3/dr.mp3
> > -
> > > > > > Imagine my
> > > > > > > > surprise when I saw you...
> > http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/downtown.html
> > > -
> > > > > See
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > New Downtown Brooklyn....
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > 1-718-382-5752
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > ____________________________
> > > > > > > New Yorker Free Software Users Scene
> > > > > > > Fair Use -
> > > > > > > because it's either fair use or useless....
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > --
> > > > > > __________________________
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Brooklyn Linux Solutions
> > > > > > __________________________
> > > > > > http://www.mrbrklyn.com - Consulting
> > > > > > http://www.nylxs.com/radio - Free Software Radio Show and Archives
> > > > > > http://www.brooklynonline.com - For the love of Brooklyn
> > > > > > http://www.nylxs.com - Leadership Development in Free Software
> > > > > > http://www.nyfairuse.org - The foundation of Democracy
> > > > > > http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/resources - Unpublished Archive or
> stories
> > > and
> > > > > > articles from around the net
> > > > > > http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/mp3/dr.mp3 - Imagine my surprise when I
> saw
> > > > > you...
> > > > > > http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/downtown.html - See the New Downtown
> > > > Brooklyn....
> > > > > >
> > > > > > 1-718-382-5752
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ____________________________
> > > > > > New Yorker Free Software Users Scene
> > > > > > Fair Use -
> > > > > > because it's either fair use or useless....
> > > > > > ____________________________
> > > > > > New Yorker Free Software Users Scene
> > > > > > Fair Use -
> > > > > > because it's either fair use or useless....
> > > > > > ____________________________
> > > > > > New Yorker Free Software Users Scene
> > > > > > Fair Use -
> > > > > > because it's either fair use or useless....
> > > > > > ____________________________
> > > > > > New Yorker Free Software Users Scene
> > > > > > Fair Use -
> > > > > > because it's either fair use or useless....
> > > > > > ____________________________
> > > > > > New Yorker Free Software Users Scene
> > > > > > Fair Use -
> > > > > > because it's either fair use or useless....
> > > > > >
> > > > > --
> > > > > __________________________
> > > > >
> > > > > Brooklyn Linux Solutions
> > > > > __________________________
> > > > > http://www.mrbrklyn.com - Consulting
> > > > > http://www.nylxs.com/radio - Free Software Radio Show and Archives
> > > > > http://www.brooklynonline.com - For the love of Brooklyn
> > > > > http://www.nylxs.com - Leadership Development in Free Software
> > > > > http://www.nyfairuse.org - The foundation of Democracy
> > > > > http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/resources - Unpublished Archive or stories
> > and
> > > > > articles from around the net
> > > > > http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/mp3/dr.mp3 - Imagine my surprise when I saw
> > > > you...
> > > > > http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/downtown.html - See the New Downtown
> > > Brooklyn....
> > > > >
> > > > > 1-718-382-5752
> > > > > ____________________________
> > > > > New Yorker Free Software Users Scene
> > > > > Fair Use -
> > > > > because it's either fair use or useless....
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > __________________________
> > > >
> > > > Brooklyn Linux Solutions
> > > > __________________________
> > > > http://www.mrbrklyn.com - Consulting
> > > > http://www.nylxs.com/radio - Free Software Radio Show and Archives
> > > > http://www.brooklynonline.com - For the love of Brooklyn
> > > > http://www.nylxs.com - Leadership Development in Free Software
> > > > http://www.nyfairuse.org - The foundation of Democracy
> > > > http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/resources - Unpublished Archive or stories
> and
> > > > articles from around the net
> > > > http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/mp3/dr.mp3 - Imagine my surprise when I saw
> > > you...
> > > > http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/downtown.html - See the New Downtown
> > Brooklyn....
> > > >
> > > > 1-718-382-5752
> > > >
> > > >
> > > --
> > > __________________________
> > >
> > > Brooklyn Linux Solutions
> > > __________________________
> > > http://www.mrbrklyn.com - Consulting
> > > http://www.nylxs.com/radio - Free Software Radio Show and Archives
> > > http://www.brooklynonline.com - For the love of Brooklyn
> > > http://www.nylxs.com - Leadership Development in Free Software
> > > http://www.nyfairuse.org - The foundation of Democracy
> > > http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/resources - Unpublished Archive or stories and
> > > articles from around the net
> > > http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/mp3/dr.mp3 - Imagine my surprise when I saw
> > you...
> > > http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/downtown.html - See the New Downtown
> Brooklyn....
> > >
> > > 1-718-382-5752
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ____________________________
> > > New Yorker Free Software Users Scene
> > > Fair Use -
> > > because it's either fair use or useless....
> >
> > --
> > __________________________
> >
> > Brooklyn Linux Solutions
> > __________________________
> > http://www.mrbrklyn.com - Consulting
> > http://www.nylxs.com/radio - Free Software Radio Show and Archives
> > http://www.brooklynonline.com - For the love of Brooklyn
> > http://www.nylxs.com - Leadership Development in Free Software
> > http://www.nyfairuse.org - The foundation of Democracy
> > http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/resources - Unpublished Archive or stories and
> > articles from around the net
> > http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/mp3/dr.mp3 - Imagine my surprise when I saw
> you...
> > http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/downtown.html - See the New Downtown Brooklyn....
> >
> > 1-718-382-5752
> >
> >
> > ____________________________
> > New Yorker Free Software Users Scene
> > Fair Use -
> > because it's either fair use or useless....
>
> --
> __________________________
>
> Brooklyn Linux Solutions
> __________________________
> http://www.mrbrklyn.com - Consulting
> http://www.nylxs.com/radio - Free Software Radio Show and Archives
> http://www.brooklynonline.com - For the love of Brooklyn
> http://www.nylxs.com - Leadership Development in Free Software
> http://www.nyfairuse.org - The foundation of Democracy
> http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/resources - Unpublished Archive or stories and
> articles from around the net
> http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/mp3/dr.mp3 - Imagine my surprise when I saw you...
> http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/downtown.html - See the New Downtown Brooklyn....
>
> 1-718-382-5752
--
__________________________
Brooklyn Linux Solutions
__________________________
http://www.mrbrklyn.com - Consulting
http://www.nylxs.com/radio - Free Software Radio Show and Archives
http://www.brooklynonline.com - For the love of Brooklyn
http://www.nylxs.com - Leadership Development in Free Software
http://www.nyfairuse.org - The foundation of Democracy
http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/resources - Unpublished Archive or stories and articles from around the net
http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/mp3/dr.mp3 - Imagine my surprise when I saw you...
http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/downtown.html - See the New Downtown Brooklyn....
1-718-382-5752
____________________________
New Yorker Free Software Users Scene
Fair Use -
because it's either fair use or useless....
|
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