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DATE 2009-07-01

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MESSAGE
DATE 2009-07-22
FROM Elfen Magix
SUBJECT Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Worthless Dads
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From: Elfen Magix
Subject: Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Worthless Dads
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Notice- Brooke is a woman.
Woman can be as worthless as mothers as some men are worthless as fathers.
In fact, it is the actions of mothers that forces men to be worthless fathe=
rs to begin with- something that she does not mention at all.

--- On Tue, 7/21/09, Ruben Safir wrote:


From: Ruben Safir
Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Worthless Dads
To: hangout-at-mrbrklyn.com
Date: Tuesday, July 21, 2009, 9:35 PM


Fathers & Families on CBS/HuffPost: =E2Do Men Become Better or Worse
Fathers After Divorce?=E2 July 20th, 2009 by Glenn Sacks, MA, Executive
Director

Author Jill Brooke helped craft a CBS Early Show segment and wrote
an article on the issue of fathering after divorce. Two Fathers &
Families supporters and I are quoted in the article. I helped Brooke
with some research and briefly appeared in the CBS segment.

Brooke=E2s article is Do Men Become Better or Worse Fathers After
Divorce? (Huffington Post, 7/17/09).

Brooke=E2s thesis is, as professor Don Gordon explains, =E2When a father
is away from the stress of a failed marriage, he can be more relaxed
and more reflective and as a result enjoy being more fully involved
with his children.=E2

She quotes CNBC anchor Dennis Kneale, who says divorce has made
him =E2vastly closer =E2 to his 9-year-old daughter Jing-Jing:

=A0 =A0 In many families, mom is the center of everything and the
=A0 =A0 husband is the supporting player. But with divorce, I have had
=A0 =A0 more one on one time with her in ways I never did before.

This can certainly be true, and some father-child relationships do
improve after divorce. As a general rule, however, divorce is often
what drives fathers and kids apart.

Brooke writes:

=A0 =A0 Technology has also helped prevent or reduce what is called
=A0 =A0 parental alienation where in the past the residential parent
=A0 =A0 may - consciously or unconsciously - block contact either out
=A0 =A0 of her resentment towards the father or because she has remarried
=A0 =A0 and is protecting the stepfather relationship.

=A0 =A0 A study by J. Annette Vanini and Edward Nichols found that 77
=A0 =A0 percent of noncustodial fathers faced some form of visitation
=A0 =A0 interference.

=A0 =A0 But now fathers can give their kids pre-paid cell phones to
=A0 =A0 insure contact. Divorce contracts are also often written to
=A0 =A0 permit contact through email accounts.

=A0 =A0 Ted Rubin, a Huntington Long Island divorced dad to two girls,
=A0 =A0 admits to using Facebook to keep in contact with his kids.
=A0 =A0 =E2Sometimes when we speak on the phone I can tell if Mom is
=A0 =A0 standing there and then later my daughter will contact me on
=A0 =A0 Facebook,=E2 he said. =E2A lot of Dads complain that moms could
=A0 =A0 stand in the way of communication but now it=E2s almost impossible
=A0 =A0 because kids are so tech savvy.=E2

=A0 =A0 In fact, Rubin, who has a contentious divorce with his ex-wife,
=A0 =A0 says that email helps divorced parents diminish =E2the nastiness
=A0 =A0 is our dialogues=E2 which the kids would overhear on the phone.
=A0 =A0 Now he can email what time he=E2s picking up the kids and deliverin=
g
=A0 =A0 them without any verbal warfare=E2=A6

=A0 =A0 [R]esearch shows that the kids do like it when both parents
=A0 =A0 are present.

=A0 =A0 =E2They have fewer behavior and emotional problems, higher
=A0 =A0 self-esteem and better school performance than children in sole
=A0 =A0 custody arrangements,=E2 said Glenn Sacks, the National Executive
=A0 =A0 Director of Fathers & Families. =E2When researchers have examined
=A0 =A0 children of divorce, and studied and queried adult children of
=A0 =A0 divorce, they=E2ve found that most prefer joint custody and shared
=A0 =A0 parenting.=E2

=A0 =A0 For example, in one Arizona State University study of college
=A0 =A0 students who experienced their parents=E2 divorces while they
=A0 =A0 were children, over two-thirds believe that living equal times
=A0 =A0 with each parent is the best arrangement. A Harvard University
=A0 =A0 study also confirmed that children in joint custody settings
=A0 =A0 fared much better than kids living in sole custody households.

=A0 =A0 While many men acknowledge progress, some still complain that
=A0 =A0 the system treats fathers as second-class citizens when asking
=A0 =A0 for more time with their children.

=A0 =A0 As Gary Nicholson, the president of the American Association
=A0 =A0 of Marital Attorneys, explains, part of the problem is that
=A0 =A0 various state laws tie child support payments to the amount of
=A0 =A0 time a father is with their child. Payments can be adjusted if
=A0 =A0 the father spends as much as 100 nights with his child so many
=A0 =A0 mothers resist giving 50-50 splits and are angered by the
=A0 =A0 request.

=A0 =A0 Said Nicholson, =E2Are there folks who look at this economically
=A0 =A0 and think if I have equal time I won=E2t have to pay as much
=A0 =A0 child support? Yes. But the majority of dads want to be involved
=A0 =A0 in their kid=E2s lives. They feel they should be equal partners.=E2

Brook begins the piece by writing:

=A0 =A0 If divorce is in the future of duplicitous two-timers Gov. Mark
=A0 =A0 Sanford to reality TV=E2s Jon Gosselin, these men will have to
=A0 =A0 navigate co-parenting. However, a growing trend shows that many
=A0 =A0 men become better parents post-divorce, to the surprise of
=A0 =A0 ex-wives who find it difficult to grasp that a man who wasn=E2t
=A0 =A0 a good husband can indeed be a good father.

One, comparing the average divorced dad to these two is like
comparing the average married woman to the conniving, spoiled,
manipulative women of Desperate Housewives=E2it=E2s hardly an accurate
generalization. (I would also add that Gosselin=E2s wife Kate supposedly
was cheating on him with her bodyguard=E2some back up that story
while others say Gosselin began these rumors. I=E2d delve into it in
greater detail but my interest in the subject wouldn=E2t warrant it.)

Two, the line =E2ex-wives who find it difficult to grasp that a man
who wasn=E2t a good husband can indeed be a good father=E2 and some of
the lines in the CBS segment imply that when women decide to divorce
their husbands, that means that they weren=E2t good husbands. While
sometimes that is the case, it is at least as common for women to
divorce their husbands because they=E2re too damn critical of them.
In my Chicago Tribune column Men Blamed for Marriage Decline but
Women=E2s Relationship Wounds Often Self-Inflicted (1/21/07) I wrote:

=A0 =A0 To what, then, do we attribute women=E2s discontent with marriage
=A0 =A0 and relationships, and the fact that they initiate the vast
=A0 =A0 majority of divorces? A new Woman=E2s Day magazine poll found
=A0 =A0 that 56% of married women would not or might not marry their
=A0 =A0 husbands if they could choose again=E2why?

=A0 =A0 Nobody would dispute that, in selecting a mate, women are more
=A0 =A0 discerning than men. This is an evolutionary necessity=E2a woman
=A0 =A0 must carefully evaluate who is likely to remain loyal to her
=A0 =A0 and protect and provide for her and her children. If a man and
=A0 =A0 a woman go on a blind date and don=E2t hit it off, the man will
=A0 =A0 shrug and say =E2it went OK.=E2 The woman will give five reasons
=A0 =A0 why he=E2s not right for her.

=A0 =A0 A woman=E2s discerning, critical nature doesn=E2t disappear on her
=A0 =A0 wedding day. Most marital problems and marriage counseling
=A0 =A0 sessions revolve around why the wife is unhappy with her husband,
=A0 =A0 even though they could just as easily be about why the husband
=A0 =A0 is unhappy with the wife. In this common pre-divorce scenario
=A0 =A0 there are only two possibilities-either she=E2s a great wife and
=A0 =A0 he=E2s a lousy husband, or she=E2s far more critical of him than
=A0 =A0 he is of her. Usually it=E2s the latter=E2=A6

=A0 =A0 Yes, there are some men who make poor mates, but not nearly
=A0 =A0 enough to account for the divorce epidemic and the decline of
=A0 =A0 marriage. While it=E2s easy and popular to blame men, many of
=A0 =A0 the wounds women bear from failed relationships and loneliness
=A0 =A0 are self-inflicted.

A biblical saying is also applicable:

=A0 =A0 Why do you observe the splinter in your brother=E2s eye and never
=A0 =A0 notice the great log in your own? (Luke 6:41)

Brooke writes:

=A0 =A0 Take the example of Peter Giles. When Peter Giles=E2 three
=A0 =A0 daughters were toddlers, work consumed him at the expense of
=A0 =A0 family life. The New York businessman would justify the absences
=A0 =A0 as doing the right thing for his family since he was providing
=A0 =A0 the financial womb while his wife was taking care of their
=A0 =A0 other needs.

=A0 =A0 What finally made him a better father? Getting a divorce.

=A0 =A0 =E2The divorce was such a shock and forced me to take stock of
=A0 =A0 who I was and what success should look like,=E2 said Giles, whose
=A0 =A0 ex-wife Nancy Claus sought a divorce in 2001. =E2I came to realize
=A0 =A0 that I had been providing for my children but needed to be more
=A0 =A0 to them. =E2

=A0 =A0 Like the majority of divorcing men today, Giles sought joint
=A0 =A0 legal custody, which courts are more willing to grant since a
=A0 =A0 federal study shows that men paid child support 90 percent of
=A0 =A0 the time in comparison to less than 45 percent when the mother
=A0 =A0 had sole custody.

=A0 =A0 When his daughters visited, Giles morphed into a multi-tasker
=A0 =A0 taking on chores previously done by his wife including cooking,
=A0 =A0 buying cosmetics and remembering to buy eggs and bacon at the
=A0 =A0 market.

=A0 =A0 =E2I wish he would have been as involved and helpful when we were
=A0 =A0 married,=E2 said Claus. =E2But he has definitely become a much
=A0 =A0 better Dad after our divorce.=E2

This seems rather unfair and condescending=E2Giles was sacrificing
for his family when he worked long hours, and his ability to earn
a good income was doubtless a substantial part of why his ex-wife
decided to marry him to begin with. Like many men, his divorce came
to him as a surprise. In don=E2t know what else happened between
them, but it seems his ex-wife may have decided to break up the
family because she was unhappy with decisions that she herself
played a large role in crafting.

His ex says, =E2I wish he would have been as involved and helpful
when we were married.=E2 This may be true, but I would add that I=E2m
sure she found his good income very =E2helpful=E2 too.

The article doesn=E2t say what the Giles=E2 custody arrangement is now,
and the article refers to his daughters =E2visiting.=E2 If they do have
real joint custody=E2not the piece of paper which says =E2joint custody=E2
but allows dad only a few days a month with his children, but real
joint custody, meaning substantially equal parenting time=E2then
Giles=E2 ex-wife is to be commended.

There=E2s a lot of pressure in society to deny the harm caused by
divorce and fatherlessness. The reason is that most divorces are
initiated by women, and most of these are not due to serious
infractions like adultery and abuse. Some divorced fathers have
brought their problems on themselves, but many others were perfectly
good husband and fathers. Brooke doesn=E2t say this and probably
doesn=E2t believe it, but, de-stigmatizing divorce and depicting
divorce as OK (or better) for kids is often a way to greenlight
women to make these damaging choices.

Fathers & Families supporters David Gestl and Eric Ryerson are also
quoted in the story. To read Brooke=E2s full piece, click here. To
comment on it, click here and scroll down.=A0 Bookmark This Post:
=0A=0A=0A
--0-413932840-1248274357=:64973
Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

top" style=3D"font: inherit;">
Notice- Brooke is a woman.

Woman can be as worthless as mothers as some men are worthless as fath=
ers.

In fact, it is the actions of mothers that forces men to be worthless =
fathers to begin with- something that she does not mention at all.

-=
-- On Tue, 7/21/09, Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> wr=
ote:

16,16,255) 2px solid">
From: Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com>
S=
ubject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Worthless Dads
To: hangout-at-mrbrklyn.com
Dat=
e: Tuesday, July 21, 2009, 9:35 PM


Fathers & Families on CBS/HuffPost: =E2Do Men Be=
come Better or Worse
Fathers After Divorce?=E2 July 20th, 2009 by Glenn =
Sacks, MA, Executive
Director

Author Jill Brooke helped craft a C=
BS Early Show segment and wrote
an article on the issue of fathering aft=
er divorce. Two Fathers &
Families supporters and I are quoted in th=
e article. I helped Brooke
with some research and briefly appeared in th=
e CBS segment.

Brooke=E2s article is Do Men Become Better or Worse F=
athers After
Divorce? (Huffington Post, 7/17/09).

Brooke=E2s thes=
is is, as professor Don Gordon explains, =E2When a father
is away from t=
he stress of a failed marriage, he can be more relaxed
and more reflecti=
ve and as a result enjoy being more fully involved
with his children.=E2=


She quotes CNBC anchor Dennis Kneale, who says divorce has made
=
him =E2vastly closer =E2 to his 9-year-old daughter Jing-Jing:

 =
;
  In many families, mom is the center of everything and the
 =
  husband is the supporting player. But with divorce, I have had
&=
nbsp;   more one on one time with her in ways I never did before.
<=
BR>This can certainly be true, and some father-child relationships do
im=
prove after divorce. As a general rule, however, divorce is often
what d=
rives fathers and kids apart.

Brooke writes:

    Te=
chnology has also helped prevent or reduce what is called
    =
parental alienation where in the past the residential parent
  &nbs=
p; may - consciously or unconsciously - block contact either out
  =
  of her resentment towards the father or because she has remarried>    and is protecting the stepfather relationship.

 =
  A study by J. Annette Vanini and Edward Nichols found that 77
&n=
bsp;   percent of noncustodial fathers faced some form of
visitation
    interference.

    But now fat=
hers can give their kids pre-paid cell phones to
    insure co=
ntact. Divorce contracts are also often written to
    permit =
contact through email accounts.

    Ted Rubin, a Huntingto=
n Long Island divorced dad to two girls,
    admits to using F=
acebook to keep in contact with his kids.
    =E2Sometimes whe=
n we speak on the phone I can tell if Mom is
    standing ther=
e and then later my daughter will contact me on
    Facebook,=
=E2 he said. =E2A lot of Dads complain that moms could
    sta=
nd in the way of communication but now it=E2s almost impossible
  &=
nbsp; because kids are so tech savvy.=E2

    In fact, Rubi=
n, who has a contentious divorce with his ex-wife,
    says th=
at email helps divorced parents diminish =E2the nastiness
   
is our dialogues=E2 which the kids would overhear on the phone.
  =
  Now he can email what time he=E2s picking up the kids and delivering=

    them without any verbal warfare=E2=A6

   =
; [R]esearch shows that the kids do like it when both parents
  &nb=
sp; are present.

    =E2They have fewer behavior and emoti=
onal problems, higher
    self-esteem and better school perfor=
mance than children in sole
    custody arrangements,=E2 said =
Glenn Sacks, the National Executive
    Director of Fathers &a=
mp; Families. =E2When researchers have examined
    children o=
f divorce, and studied and queried adult children of
    divor=
ce, they=E2ve found that most prefer joint custody and shared
  &nb=
sp; parenting.=E2

    For example, in one Arizona State Un=
iversity study of college
    students who experienced their
parents=E2 divorces while they
    were children, over two-th=
irds believe that living equal times
    with each parent is t=
he best arrangement. A Harvard University
    study also confi=
rmed that children in joint custody settings
    fared much be=
tter than kids living in sole custody households.

    Whil=
e many men acknowledge progress, some still complain that
    =
the system treats fathers as second-class citizens when asking
  &n=
bsp; for more time with their children.

    As Gary Nichol=
son, the president of the American Association
    of Marital =
Attorneys, explains, part of the problem is that
    various s=
tate laws tie child support payments to the amount of
    time=
a father is with their child. Payments can be adjusted if
   =
the father spends as much as 100 nights with his child so
many
    mothers resist giving 50-50 splits and are angered b=
y the
    request.

    Said Nicholson, =E2Are=
there folks who look at this economically
    and think if I =
have equal time I won=E2t have to pay as much
    child suppor=
t? Yes. But the majority of dads want to be involved
    in th=
eir kid=E2s lives. They feel they should be equal partners.=E2

Brook=
begins the piece by writing:

    If divorce is in the fut=
ure of duplicitous two-timers Gov. Mark
    Sanford to reality=
TV=E2s Jon Gosselin, these men will have to
    navigate co-p=
arenting. However, a growing trend shows that many
    men bec=
ome better parents post-divorce, to the surprise of
    ex-wiv=
es who find it difficult to grasp that a man who wasn=E2t
    =
a good husband can indeed be a good father.

One, comparing the
average divorced dad to these two is like
comparing the average married=
woman to the conniving, spoiled,
manipulative women of Desperate Housew=
ives=E2it=E2s hardly an accurate
generalization. (I would also add that =
Gosselin=E2s wife Kate supposedly
was cheating on him with her bodyguard=
=E2some back up that story
while others say Gosselin began these rumors.=
I=E2d delve into it in
greater detail but my interest in the subject wo=
uldn=E2t warrant it.)

Two, the line =E2ex-wives who find it difficul=
t to grasp that a man
who wasn=E2t a good husband can indeed be a good f=
ather=E2 and some of
the lines in the CBS segment imply that when women =
decide to divorce
their husbands, that means that they weren=E2t good hu=
sbands. While
sometimes that is the case, it is at least as common for w=
omen to
divorce their husbands because they=E2re too damn critical of th=
em.
In my Chicago Tribune column Men Blamed for Marriage Decline
but
Women=E2s Relationship Wounds Often Self-Inflicted (1/21/07) I wrot=
e:

    To what, then, do we attribute women=E2s discontent=
with marriage
    and relationships, and the fact that they i=
nitiate the vast
    majority of divorces? A new Woman=E2s Day=
magazine poll found
    that 56% of married women would not o=
r might not marry their
    husbands if they could choose agai=
n=E2why?

    Nobody would dispute that, in selecting a mat=
e, women are more
    discerning than men. This is an evolutio=
nary necessity=E2a woman
    must carefully evaluate who is li=
kely to remain loyal to her
    and protect and provide for he=
r and her children. If a man and
    a woman go on a blind dat=
e and don=E2t hit it off, the man will
    shrug and say =E2it=
went OK.=E2 The woman will give five reasons
    why he=E2s n=
ot
right for her.

    A woman=E2s discerning, critical natur=
e doesn=E2t disappear on her
    wedding day. Most marital pro=
blems and marriage counseling
    sessions revolve around why =
the wife is unhappy with her husband,
    even though they cou=
ld just as easily be about why the husband
    is unhappy with=
the wife. In this common pre-divorce scenario
    there are o=
nly two possibilities-either she=E2s a great wife and
    he=
=E2s a lousy husband, or she=E2s far more critical of him than
  &n=
bsp; he is of her. Usually it=E2s the latter=E2=A6

    Yes=
, there are some men who make poor mates, but not nearly
    e=
nough to account for the divorce epidemic and the decline of
  &nbs=
p; marriage. While it=E2s easy and popular to blame men, many of
  =
  the wounds women bear from failed relationships and loneliness
&n=
bsp;
  are self-inflicted.

A biblical saying is also applicable:>
    Why do you observe the splinter in your brother=E2s eye =
and never
    notice the great log in your own? (Luke 6:41)>
Brooke writes:

    Take the example of Peter Giles. W=
hen Peter Giles=E2 three
    daughters were toddlers, work con=
sumed him at the expense of
    family life. The New York busi=
nessman would justify the absences
    as doing the right thin=
g for his family since he was providing
    the financial womb=
while his wife was taking care of their
    other needs.
<=
BR>    What finally made him a better father? Getting a divorce.<=
BR>
    =E2The divorce was such a shock and forced me to take =
stock of
    who I was and what success should look like,=E2 s=
aid Giles, whose
    ex-wife Nancy Claus sought a divorce
in 2001. =E2I came to realize
    that I had been providing f=
or my children but needed to be more
    to them. =E2

&=
nbsp;   Like the majority of divorcing men today, Giles sought jointR>    legal custody, which courts are more willing to grant since=
a
    federal study shows that men paid child support 90 perc=
ent of
    the time in comparison to less than 45 percent when=
the mother
    had sole custody.

    When hi=
s daughters visited, Giles morphed into a multi-tasker
    tak=
ing on chores previously done by his wife including cooking,
  &nbs=
p; buying cosmetics and remembering to buy eggs and bacon at the
  =
  market.

    =E2I wish he would have been as involve=
d and helpful when we were
    married,=E2 said Claus. =E2But =
he has definitely become a much
    better Dad after our
divorce.=E2

This seems rather unfair and condescending=E2Giles was =
sacrificing
for his family when he worked long hours, and his ability to=
earn
a good income was doubtless a substantial part of why his ex-wife<=
BR>decided to marry him to begin with. Like many men, his divorce came
t=
o him as a surprise. In don=E2t know what else happened between
them, bu=
t it seems his ex-wife may have decided to break up the
family because s=
he was unhappy with decisions that she herself
played a large role in cr=
afting.

His ex says, =E2I wish he would have been as involved and he=
lpful
when we were married.=E2 This may be true, but I would add that I=
=E2m
sure she found his good income very =E2helpful=E2 too.

The a=
rticle doesn=E2t say what the Giles=E2 custody arrangement is now,
and t=
he article refers to his daughters =E2visiting.=E2 If they do have
real =
joint custody=E2not the piece of paper which says =E2joint custody=E2
bu=
t allows
dad only a few days a month with his children, but real
joint custody, =
meaning substantially equal parenting time=E2then
Giles=E2 ex-wife is to=
be commended.

There=E2s a lot of pressure in society to deny the ha=
rm caused by
divorce and fatherlessness. The reason is that most divorce=
s are
initiated by women, and most of these are not due to serious
in=
fractions like adultery and abuse. Some divorced fathers have
brought th=
eir problems on themselves, but many others were perfectly
good husband =
and fathers. Brooke doesn=E2t say this and probably
doesn=E2t believe it=
, but, de-stigmatizing divorce and depicting
divorce as OK (or better) f=
or kids is often a way to greenlight
women to make these damaging choice=
s.

Fathers & Families supporters David Gestl and Eric Ryerson ar=
e also
quoted in the story. To read Brooke=E2s full piece, click here. T=
o
comment on it, click here and scroll down.  Bookmark This
Post:

=0A=0A
--0-413932840-1248274357=:64973--

  1. 2009-07-02 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Happy almost July!
  2. 2009-07-03 From: "mlr52-at-michaellrichardson.com" <mlr52-at-michaellrichardson.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] TRS-80
  3. 2009-07-03 Elfen Magix <elfen_magix-at-yahoo.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] TRS-80
  4. 2009-07-03 Ron Guerin <ron-at-vnetworx.net> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] TRS-80
  5. 2009-07-04 From: "Michael L. Richardson" <mlr52-at-michaellrichardson.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] TRS-80
  6. 2009-07-07 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] TRS-80
  7. 2009-07-07 Robert Menes <viewtiful.icchan-at-gmail.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] TRS-80
  8. 2009-07-07 From: "Tameek" <tameek-at-gmail.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Cannon Rebel XT For Sale - Broken PC
  9. 2009-07-07 Paul Robert Marino <prmarino1-at-gmail.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] TRS-80
  10. 2009-07-07 From: "Michael L. Richardson" <mlr52-at-michaellrichardson.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] TRS-80
  11. 2009-07-08 Paul Robert Marino <prmarino1-at-gmail.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Google operating system
  12. 2009-07-08 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Cannon Rebel XT For Sale - Broken PC
  13. 2009-07-08 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] TRS-80
  14. 2009-07-08 Paul Robert Marino <prmarino1-at-gmail.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Cannon Rebel XT For Sale - Broken PC
  15. 2009-07-08 Paul Robert Marino <prmarino1-at-gmail.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] TRS-80
  16. 2009-07-08 Ron Guerin <ron-at-vnetworx.net> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Google operating system
  17. 2009-07-08 Paul Robert Marino <prmarino1-at-gmail.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Google operating system
  18. 2009-07-08 Ron Guerin <ron-at-vnetworx.net> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Google operating system
  19. 2009-07-08 Paul Robert Marino <prmarino1-at-gmail.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Google operating system
  20. 2009-07-08 Robert Menes <viewtiful.icchan-at-gmail.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Google operating system
  21. 2009-07-08 Paul Robert Marino <prmarino1-at-gmail.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Google operating system
  22. 2009-07-08 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] TRS-80
  23. 2009-07-08 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Google operating system
  24. 2009-07-08 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Google operating system
  25. 2009-07-08 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Google operating system
  26. 2009-07-08 Paul Robert Marino <prmarino1-at-gmail.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] TRS-80
  27. 2009-07-08 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Google operating system
  28. 2009-07-08 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] internet radio
  29. 2009-07-08 Ron Guerin <ron-at-vnetworx.net> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Google operating system
  30. 2009-07-08 Ron Guerin <ron-at-vnetworx.net> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] internet radio
  31. 2009-07-08 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] internet radio
  32. 2009-07-08 Ron Guerin <ron-at-vnetworx.net> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] internet radio
  33. 2009-07-08 Elfen Magix <elfen_magix-at-yahoo.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] internet radio
  34. 2009-07-08 Ron Guerin <ron-at-vnetworx.net> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] internet radio
  35. 2009-07-09 Ron Guerin <ron-at-vnetworx.net> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] internet radio
  36. 2009-07-09 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] internet radio
  37. 2009-07-09 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] New Events -
  38. 2009-07-10 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] New Events -
  39. 2009-07-13 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] TRS-80
  40. 2009-07-14 Elfen Magix <elfen_magix-at-yahoo.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Perl Toe jam
  41. 2009-07-15 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Perl Toe jam
  42. 2009-07-15 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Perl Toe jam
  43. 2009-07-19 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] New Agenda -
  44. 2009-07-20 einker <eminker-at-gmail.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] New Agenda -
  45. 2009-07-20 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] LINUX INSTALLFEST! Saturday, August 1st, Bug Labs
  46. 2009-07-20 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] New Agenda -
  47. 2009-07-20 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Strange News this week
  48. 2009-07-20 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Big Brother is Watching
  49. 2009-07-20 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Don't Believe it : RIAA - DRM is dead
  50. 2009-07-20 Ron Guerin <ron-at-vnetworx.net> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Strange News this week
  51. 2009-07-20 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Strange News this week
  52. 2009-07-20 Ron Guerin <ron-at-vnetworx.net> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Strange News this week
  53. 2009-07-20 swd <sderrick-at-optonline.net> RE: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Strange News this week
  54. 2009-07-20 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Strange News this week
  55. 2009-07-20 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Strange News this week
  56. 2009-07-20 From: "Paul Robert Marino" <prmarino1-at-gmail.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Strange News this week
  57. 2009-07-20 Ron Guerin <ron-at-vnetworx.net> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Strange News this week
  58. 2009-07-20 Simon Fondrie-Teitler <simonft-at-gmail.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Strange News this week
  59. 2009-07-21 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Strange News this week
  60. 2009-07-21 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Strange News this week
  61. 2009-07-21 From: "Paul Robert Marino" <prmarino1-at-gmail.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Strange News this week
  62. 2009-07-21 Amy Coleman <acoleman-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Google operating system
  63. 2009-07-21 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Worthless Dads
  64. 2009-07-21 Amy Coleman <acoleman-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] New Agenda -
  65. 2009-07-21 Simon Fondrie-Teitler <simonft-at-gmail.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] NYLXS
  66. 2009-07-21 From: "Michael L. Richardson" <mlr52-at-michaellrichardson.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] NYLXS
  67. 2009-07-22 From: "Michael L. Richardson" <mlr52-at-michaellrichardson.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] New Agenda -
  68. 2009-07-22 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] New Agenda -
  69. 2009-07-22 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] NYLXS
  70. 2009-07-22 Elfen Magix <elfen_magix-at-yahoo.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Worthless Dads
  71. 2009-07-22 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] New Agenda -
  72. 2009-07-22 Ron Guerin <ron-at-vnetworx.net> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] (Ruben) sender change
  73. 2009-07-22 From: "Paul Robert Marino" <prmarino1-at-gmail.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] (Ruben) sender change
  74. 2009-07-22 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] (Ruben) sender change
  75. 2009-07-22 Simon Fondrie-Teitler <simonft-at-gmail.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] NYLXS
  76. 2009-07-22 Ron Guerin <ron-at-vnetworx.net> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] (Ruben) sender change
  77. 2009-07-22 Ron Guerin <ron-at-vnetworx.net> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] (Ruben) sender change
  78. 2009-07-22 Contrarian <adrba-at-nyct.net> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] New Agenda -
  79. 2009-07-22 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] (Ruben) sender change
  80. 2009-07-22 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] (Ruben) sender change
  81. 2009-07-22 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] New Agenda -
  82. 2009-07-22 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Worthless Dads
  83. 2009-07-22 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Blue Ray DRM
  84. 2009-07-22 From: "Michael L. Richardson" <mlr52-at-michaellrichardson.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] NYLXS
  85. 2009-07-23 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] MEETING TONIGHT
  86. 2009-07-23 mlr52-at-michaellrichardson.com RE: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] MEETING TONIGHT
  87. 2009-07-23 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] MEETING TONIGHT
  88. 2009-07-24 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] NYLXS Upcoming Scheduling and Projects
  89. 2009-07-24 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] NYLXS to purchase Google for 3.5 Billion
  90. 2009-07-24 Robert Menes <viewtiful.icchan-at-gmail.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] NYLXS to purchase Google for 3.5 Billion
  91. 2009-07-24 Ron Guerin <ron-at-vnetworx.net> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] NYLXS to purchase Google for 3.5 Billion
  92. 2009-07-24 Ron Guerin <ron-at-vnetworx.net> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] NYLXS to purchase Google for 3.5 Billion
  93. 2009-07-24 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Bad Week For Jews
  94. 2009-07-24 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] NYLXS to purchase Google for 3.5 Billion
  95. 2009-07-24 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] NYLXS to purchase Google for 3.5 Billion
  96. 2009-07-24 Ron Guerin <ron-at-vnetworx.net> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] NYLXS to purchase Google for 3.5 Billion
  97. 2009-07-24 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] NYLXS to purchase Google for 3.5 Billion
  98. 2009-07-24 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] NYLXS to purchase Google for 3.5 Billion
  99. 2009-07-24 Amy Coleman <acoleman-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] NYLXS to purchase Google for 3.5 Billion
  100. 2009-07-24 From: "Beau Gould \(OSS\)" <bg-at-capitalmarketsp.com> RE: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] NYLXS to purchase Google for 3.5 Billion
  101. 2009-07-24 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] NYLXS to purchase Google for 3.5 Billion
  102. 2009-07-25 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Building a Better Mouse Trap
  103. 2009-07-25 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] NYLXS Upcoming Scheduling and Projects
  104. 2009-07-26 Simon Fondrie-Teitler <simonft-at-gmail.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Building a Better Mouse Trap
  105. 2009-07-26 Simon Fondrie-Teitler <simonft-at-gmail.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] NYLXS to purchase Google for 3.5 Billion
  106. 2009-07-26 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Building a Better Mouse Trap
  107. 2009-07-26 Ron Guerin <ron-at-vnetworx.net> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] NYLXS to purchase Google for 3.5 Billion
  108. 2009-07-26 swd <sderrick-at-optonline.net> RE: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Building a Better Mouse Trap
  109. 2009-07-26 Contrarian <adrba-at-nyct.net> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] closest I have found to an ESR Linux conference article
  110. 2009-07-26 Contrarian <adrba-at-nyct.net> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Eric Raymond's tips for effective open source advocacy
  111. 2009-07-26 Contrarian <adrba-at-nyct.net> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] best comments on the Gates (Harvard) affair I've seen
  112. 2009-07-26 Ron Guerin <ron-at-vnetworx.net> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Eric Raymond's tips for effective open source
  113. 2009-07-27 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Eric Raymond's tips for effective open
  114. 2009-07-27 From: "mlr52-at-michaellrichardson.com" <mlr52-at-michaellrichardson.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Inservice
  115. 2009-07-27 Ron Guerin <ron-at-vnetworx.net> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Inservice
  116. 2009-07-27 Ron Guerin <ron-at-vnetworx.net> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Eric Raymond's tips for effective open source
  117. 2009-07-27 From: "mlr52-at-michaellrichardson.com" <mlr52-at-michaellrichardson.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Inservice
  118. 2009-07-27 Contrarian <adrba-at-nyct.net> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Eric Raymond's tips for effective open source
  119. 2009-07-27 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Inservice
  120. 2009-07-27 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Inservice
  121. 2009-07-27 Joshua Zeidner <jjzeidner-at-gmail.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Eric Raymond's tips for effective open source
  122. 2009-07-27 Simon Fondrie-Teitler <simonft-at-gmail.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Eric Raymond's tips for effective open source
  123. 2009-07-28 Ron Guerin <ron-at-vnetworx.net> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Eric Raymond's tips for effective open source
  124. 2009-07-28 Paul Robert Marino <prmarino1-at-gmail.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Eric Raymond's tips for effective open source
  125. 2009-07-28 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Family Free Software Videos
  126. 2009-07-28 Amy Coleman <acoleman-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Family Free Software Videos
  127. 2009-07-28 Simon Fondrie-Teitler <simonft-at-gmail.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Family Free Software Videos
  128. 2009-07-28 Joshua Zeidner <jjzeidner-at-gmail.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Eric Raymond's tips for effective open source
  129. 2009-07-28 Ron Guerin <ron-at-vnetworx.net> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Eric Raymond's tips for effective open source
  130. 2009-07-28 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Eric Raymond's tips for effective open
  131. 2009-07-28 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Installfest in Downtown Brooklyn?
  132. 2009-07-28 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Some Jewish Spiritual information for those of us of that faith
  133. 2009-07-28 Joshua Zeidner <jjzeidner-at-gmail.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Eric Raymond's tips for effective open source
  134. 2009-07-28 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Moving ISP Services
  135. 2009-07-28 Ron Guerin <ron-at-vnetworx.net> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Moving ISP Services
  136. 2009-07-28 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Moving ISP Services
  137. 2009-07-28 Elfen Magix <elfen_magix-at-yahoo.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Moving ISP Services
  138. 2009-07-29 Ron Guerin <ron-at-vnetworx.net> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Moving ISP Services
  139. 2009-07-29 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Moving ISP Services
  140. 2009-07-29 Ron Guerin <ron-at-vnetworx.net> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Moving ISP Services
  141. 2009-07-29 Amy Coleman <acoleman-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Some Jewish Spiritual information for those
  142. 2009-07-29 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Moving ISP Services
  143. 2009-07-29 Ron Guerin <ron-at-vnetworx.net> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Moving ISP Services
  144. 2009-07-29 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Moving ISP Services
  145. 2009-07-29 From: "mlr52-at-michaellrichardson.com" <mlr52-at-michaellrichardson.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Inservice
  146. 2009-07-29 Ron Guerin <ron-at-vnetworx.net> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Moving ISP Services
  147. 2009-07-29 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Inservice
  148. 2009-07-29 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Moving ISP Services
  149. 2009-07-29 From: "Michael L. Richardson" <mlr52-at-mycouponmagic.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Moving ISP Services
  150. 2009-07-29 From: "Michael L. Richardson" <mlr52-at-michaellrichardson.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Inservice
  151. 2009-07-29 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Freedom-IT planning Start
  152. 2009-07-29 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Inservice
  153. 2009-07-29 From: "Michael L. Richardson" <mlr52-at-michaellrichardson.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Inservice
  154. 2009-07-30 Amy Coleman <acoleman-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Moving ISP Services
  155. 2009-07-30 From: "mlr52-at-michaellrichardson.com" <mlr52-at-michaellrichardson.com> Subject: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Inservice
  156. 2009-07-30 Ron Guerin <ron-at-vnetworx.net> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Moving ISP Services
  157. 2009-07-30 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Inservice
  158. 2009-07-30 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Moving ISP Services
  159. 2009-07-31 Ron Guerin <ron-at-vnetworx.net> Re: [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Moving ISP Services

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