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DATE 2019-11-01

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MESSAGE
DATE 2019-11-05
FROM Alexandre =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Fran=E7ois?= Garreau
SUBJECT Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Filtering indirection [Was: Re: list moderation]
From hangout-bounces-at-nylxs.com Tue Nov 5 21:26:53 2019
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From: Alexandre =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Fran=E7ois?= Garreau
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Cc: Samuel Thibault
Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Filtering indirection [Was: Re: list moderation]
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Le mardi 5 novembre 2019 18:17:16 CET, vous avez =C3=A9crit :
> Samuel Thibault writes:
> > Wow, this is so welcoming a community...
> > =

> > Samuel

I initially thought that was in answer to a message of mine, because my MUA =

placed it under=E2=80=A6

> Ruben has been placed under moderation and I rejected the message that
> you are referring to. If you received it, it's because he sent it to
> you personally (I guess by scraping the email addresses of everyone who
> has participated). I will see what options are available to us.

That raises two problems, a social and a technical one.

The second, technical, for censorship failure, is that to solve this proble=
m =

currently involves better knowledge from users. That can be expected of =

Samuel=E2=80=A6 but will everybody know it? We must find a (likely technic=
al, at =

least) solution, as if people won=E2=80=99t learn how to personally block/f=
ilter =

someone (possibly easily, collectively, or maybe even automatically), maybe =

one day people will argue something such as =E2=80=9Cdevelop international =
procedures =

so to force mail servers censor mail or shut down mail servers by force or =

ignoring from other lawful mail servers=E2=80=9D that would break the inter=
net we =

know. Imagine gmail doing that.

For instance, I first thought =E2=80=9Cbut=E2=80=A6 you should not say *tha=
t* about *that* mail =

if it didn=E2=80=99t got the List-Id/List-Post!=E2=80=9D, but that=E2=80=99=
s too technical (it=E2=80=99s a =

problem most MUA currently don=E2=80=99t treat specially by default list me=
ssages), =

and then =E2=80=9CMUA shouldn=E2=80=99t include the list address if there=
=E2=80=99s not the lists =

headers=E2=80=9D =E2=80=A6but that=E2=80=99s negative reaction: wouldn=E2=
=80=99t work (for instance for anyone =

not subscribed and never having received mail from the list (hence ignoring =

it=E2=80=99s a list)).

Actually a censoring list in a Cc would act exactely as someone who still =

receive mail from a thread person started (or was tiercely put in copy), bu=
t =

doesn=E2=80=99t want to hear about: so you can=E2=80=99t be expected not to=
answer because of =

it=E2=80=A6 But actually, that=E2=80=99s encouraging: solving it would then=
solve the bigger =

problem!

So, normally, what is done? either person actively states to other recipien=
ts =

they don=E2=80=99t want to be included anymore (we=E2=80=99d need a new sta=
ndard for doing =

that automatically when filtering occurs, like a formally defined header fo=
rmat =

for a control message to be sent), either person stop reading the answer pe=
r =

the same filter used before (either =E2=80=9Crefusing to read=E2=80=9D, =E2=
=80=9Crecognizing as spam=E2=80=9D, =

=E2=80=9Cnot looking at/putting in the folder=E2=80=9D (for instance when s=
omeone stops =

reading a whole mailing-list (that sometimes occurs sadly, though most ofte=
n =

because of (globally relevant) mail volume, sometimes also for social reaso=
ns =

people here would like to avoid)) that is in user (interface) language: =E2=
=80=9Cfold =

the whole thread and stop reading it=E2=80=9D.

To the former, that clearly means =E2=80=9Cformalize censorship rules=E2=80=
=9D and maybe even =

=E2=80=9Cpublish and update them=E2=80=9D so to move implementation of it m=
ore local or even =

client-side (that includes to publicly state if moderation is pre- or post-=
, =

so to possibly tell people =E2=80=9C(don=E2=80=99t) wait for particular per=
-message censorship =

rejection notice to read it=E2=80=9D, about who, what, to what extent/time/=
duration/
end, etc.). Then, when mailing-list receive a mail it filters, it answers =
with =

the mail refusal control message (that should look like a bounce) not only =
the =

author, but *all* participants (informing: =E2=80=9Cplease don=E2=80=99t ta=
lk about it to us =

anymore, don=E2=80=99t put us in copy=E2=80=9D, solving the sad situation t=
hat happens on IRC =

when you /ignore someone, and then see half conversations and possibly end =

recursively ignoring everybody).

To the later, that means indirecting the filtering rules by the =E2=80=9Cre=
ferences=E2=80=9D =

header (collect message-id=E2=80=99s of everything filtered, and filter the=
same when it =

references it (depending on the filter and configuration (you might want to=
be =

aware about the difference between what come from the list and what=E2=80=
=99s =

personal))): so the list could have filtered Samuel=E2=80=99s message (and =
other list =

participants wouldn=E2=80=99t have seen any quote or comment, even more esp=
ecially =

under the wrong message). And people having received the censorship contro=
l =

message could too. I proposed that feature to mailman hackers some years a=
go, =

when similar censorship problems happened elsewhere (I think it was on a La =

Quadrature du Net (EFF french equivalent) ML), but they said it wasn=E2=80=
=99t a =

priority, code was long to hack, they didn=E2=80=99t have time, and I ought=
to do it =

myself, except it=E2=80=99s written in Python and I don=E2=80=99t write pyt=
hon (and it isn=E2=80=99t =

extensible with C or Guile (sad dream of =E2=80=9CI can extend any software=
with the =

favorite script language I want=E2=80=9D that never happened), nor will bec=
ause this =

is python, not C or lisp).

Or the list could don=E2=80=99t filter anything, and people would, per-conf=
ig, choose to =

see or not what moderators might have selected as =E2=80=9Cirrelevant=E2=80=
=9D or =E2=80=9Cnasty=E2=80=9D =

(those could even be categorized differently in different filter lists, and=
other =

people could publish other lists) and messages referencing these. That=E2=
=80=99s my =

dream. Censorship wouldn=E2=80=99t exist anymore except in *explicitly* au=
thoritarian =

circumstances, and we could argue against them, and actively make anti-
censorship P2P systems that go against this automatically without added noi=
se.

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  65. 2019-11-05 From: =?utf-8?Q?Ludovic_Court=C3=A8s?= <ludo-at-gnu.org> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS]
  66. 2019-11-05 Dmitry Alexandrov <321942-at-gmail.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] Why don't gnu.org and RMS sign mail? - FDE
  67. 2019-11-05 Dmitry Alexandrov <321942-at-gmail.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] puri.sm (was: Why don't gnu.org and RMS sign
  68. 2019-11-05 From: =?utf-8?Q?Ludovic_Court=C3=A8s?= <ludo-at-gnu.org> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] list moderation
  69. 2019-11-04 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] Women and GNU and RMS (was Re: something else)
  70. 2019-11-04 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] Women and GNU and RMS (was Re: something else)
  71. 2019-11-05 Dmitry Alexandrov <321942-at-gmail.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Is negative publicity always harmful? (was: Women
  72. 2019-11-05 Alexandre =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Fran=E7ois?= Garreau <galex-713-at-galex-713.eu> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] Is negative publicity always harmful?
  73. 2019-11-05 Alexandre =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Fran=E7ois?= Garreau <galex-713-at-galex-713.eu> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] Why fewer contributors to GNU? They have to
  74. 2019-11-05 Alexandre =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Fran=E7ois?= Garreau <galex-713-at-galex-713.eu> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] list moderation
  75. 2019-11-05 Alexandre =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Fran=E7ois?= Garreau <galex-713-at-galex-713.eu> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Filtering indirection [Was: Re: list moderation]
  76. 2019-11-05 Alexandre =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Fran=E7ois?= Garreau <galex-713-at-galex-713.eu> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] list moderation
  77. 2019-11-05 Jean Louis <bugs-at-gnu.support> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS]
  78. 2019-11-05 Dmitry Alexandrov <321942-at-gmail.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS]
  79. 2019-11-05 Jean Louis <bugs-at-gnu.support> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS]
  80. 2019-11-05 Jean Louis <bugs-at-gnu.support> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS]
  81. 2019-11-05 Dmitry Alexandrov <321942-at-gmail.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS]
  82. 2019-11-05 Mark Wielaard <mark-at-klomp.org> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS]
  83. 2019-11-05 Jean Louis <bugs-at-gnu.support> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] =?utf-8?b?W2Ftc0BnbnUub3JnOiBSZTogQSBHTlUg4oCc?=
  84. 2019-11-05 Jean Louis <bugs-at-gnu.support> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] list moderation
  85. 2019-11-05 Mark Wielaard <mark-at-klomp.org> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] list moderation
  86. 2019-11-05 Dora Scilipoti <dora-at-gnu.org> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] list moderation
  87. 2019-11-05 Jean Louis <bugs-at-gnu.support> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] Will RMS be back to Programming now?
  88. 2019-11-05 Jean Louis <bugs-at-gnu.support> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] Why fewer contributors to GNU? They have to
  89. 2019-11-05 Dora Scilipoti <dora-at-gnu.org> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] list moderation
  90. 2019-11-05 Dmitry Alexandrov <321942-at-gmail.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS]
  91. 2019-11-05 From: "Thompson, David" <dthompson2-at-worcester.edu> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] list moderation
  92. 2019-11-05 Brandon Invergo <brandon-at-gnu.org> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] list moderation
  93. 2019-11-05 Andreas <avr-at-softwarelibre.nl> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] Is negative publicity always harmful? (was:
  94. 2019-11-05 Dmitry Alexandrov <321942-at-gmail.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS]
  95. 2019-11-05 From: "Thompson, David" <dthompson2-at-worcester.edu> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] Is negative publicity always harmful? (was:
  96. 2019-11-05 Brandon Invergo <brandon-at-gnu.org> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] list moderation
  97. 2019-11-05 Brandon Invergo <brandon-at-gnu.org> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] list moderation
  98. 2019-11-05 From: "Thompson, David" <dthompson2-at-worcester.edu> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] list moderation
  99. 2019-11-05 Dmitry Alexandrov <321942-at-gmail.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] The list discourse
  100. 2019-11-05 Dora Scilipoti <dora-at-gnu.org> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] list moderation
  101. 2019-11-05 ams-at-gnu.org (Alfred M. Szmidt) Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] Is negative publicity always harmful? (was:
  102. 2019-11-05 Dmitry Alexandrov <321942-at-gmail.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] The list discourse (was: list moderation)
  103. 2019-11-05 From: "Kaz Kylheku (gnu-misc-discuss)" <936-846-2769-at-kylheku.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] list moderation
  104. 2019-11-05 Andreas <avr-at-softwarelibre.nl> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] Is negative publicity always harmful? (was:
  105. 2019-11-05 Dmitry Alexandrov <321942-at-gmail.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] Is negative publicity always harmful?
  106. 2019-11-05 From: "Thompson, David" <dthompson2-at-worcester.edu> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] The list discourse (was: list moderation)
  107. 2019-11-05 Dora Scilipoti <dora-at-gnu.org> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] list moderation
  108. 2019-11-05 Brandon Invergo <brandon-at-gnu.org> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] Is negative publicity always harmful? (was:
  109. 2019-11-05 From: "Thompson, David" <dthompson2-at-worcester.edu> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] Is negative publicity always harmful? (was:
  110. 2019-11-05 ams-at-gnu.org (Alfred M. Szmidt) Re: A GNU “social contract”?
  111. 2019-11-05 Dmitry Alexandrov <321942-at-gmail.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Is negative publicity always harmful? (was: Women
  112. 2019-11-05 ams-at-gnu.org (Alfred M. Szmidt) Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] list moderation
  113. 2019-11-05 ams-at-gnu.org (Alfred M. Szmidt) Re: A GNU “social contract”?
  114. 2019-11-05 From: "Thompson, David" <dthompson2-at-worcester.edu> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] list moderation
  115. 2019-11-05 Alexandre =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Fran=E7ois?= Garreau <galex-713-at-galex-713.eu> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] list moderation
  116. 2019-11-05 Brandon Invergo <brandon-at-gnu.org> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] list moderation
  117. 2019-11-05 Alexandre =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Fran=E7ois?= Garreau <galex-713-at-galex-713.eu> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] list moderation
  118. 2019-11-05 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] Is negative publicity always harmful?
  119. 2019-11-06 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] Is negative publicity always harmful?
  120. 2019-11-06 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] Is negative publicity always harmful?
  121. 2019-11-06 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] Is negative publicity always harmful?
  122. 2019-11-06 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] Is negative publicity always harmful?
  123. 2019-11-06 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] Is negative publicity always harmful?
  124. 2019-11-06 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] GNU Kind Communication Guidelines versus
  125. 2019-11-06 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] GNU Kind Communication Guidelines versus
  126. 2019-11-06 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] GNU Kind Communication Guidelines versus
  127. 2019-11-06 Jean Louis <bugs-at-gnu.support> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] Is negative publicity always harmful?
  128. 2019-11-06 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS]
  129. 2019-11-06 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] GNU Kind Communication Guidelines versus
  130. 2019-11-06 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] GNU Kind Communication Guidelines versus
  131. 2019-11-06 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] GNU Kind Communication Guidelines versus
  132. 2019-11-04 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] Women and GNU and RMS (was Re: something else)
  133. 2019-11-06 Dmitry Alexandrov <321942-at-gmail.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] =?utf-8?q?Concrete_suggestions_on_how_to_make_G?=
  134. 2019-11-06 Jean Louis <bugs-at-gnu.support> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS]
  135. 2019-11-06 Dmitry Alexandrov <321942-at-gmail.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] =?utf-8?q?GNU_vs=2E_Church_of_Emacs_=28was=3A_A?=
  136. 2019-11-06 Dmitry Alexandrov <321942-at-gmail.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS]
  137. 2019-11-06 Brandon Invergo <brandon-at-gnu.org> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS]
  138. 2019-11-06 Andreas <avr-at-softwarelibre.nl> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS]
  139. 2019-11-06 ams-at-gnu.org (Alfred M. Szmidt) Re: A GNU “social contract”?
  140. 2019-11-06 Andreas Enge <andreas-at-enge.fr> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS]
  141. 2019-11-06 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS]
  142. 2019-11-07 IEEE Spectrum <ieee-spectrum-at-deliver.ieee.org> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Tech Alert
  143. 2019-11-08 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS]
  144. 2019-11-10 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] KVM and Networking access
  145. 2019-11-11 Gabor Szabo <gabor-at-szabgab.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] [Perlweekly] #433 - Tabs or spaces,
  146. 2019-11-12 Ruben Safir <ruben.safir-at-my.liu.edu> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] NYLUG Open Hacker Hours on Tuesday, November 26
  147. 2019-11-12 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS]
  148. 2019-11-12 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS]
  149. 2019-11-13 From: "Dana Morgenstein, FSF" <info-at-fsf.org> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Spring internships at the FSF! Apply by Nov. 29
  150. 2019-11-13 Healthcare Update News Service <admin-at-healthcareupdatenewsservice.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] 20th Anniversary Population Health Colloquium
  151. 2019-11-13 From: "Speaker Corey Johnson" <SpeakerJohnson-at-council.nyc.gov> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] =?utf-8?q?A_Master_Plan_for_Our_City=27s_Street?=
  152. 2019-11-15 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] [653360]Re: mrbrklyn.com
  153. 2019-11-15 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] [OpenDNS] Re: mrbrklyn.com
  154. 2019-11-15 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] [653360]Re: mrbrklyn.com
  155. 2019-11-15 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] [OpenDNS] Re: mrbrklyn.com
  156. 2019-11-15 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] [653360]Re: mrbrklyn.com
  157. 2019-11-17 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] In the Beginning... almost
  158. 2019-11-17 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS]
  159. 2019-11-19 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS]
  160. 2019-11-19 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS]
  161. 2019-11-18 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] 18 THOUSAND new city workers to call 311
  162. 2019-11-19 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] EmergingTech is Hiring CompTIA Certified Trainers
  163. 2019-11-19 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] Complaint from NYLUG
  164. 2019-11-20 Chris Knadle <Chris.Knadle-at-coredump.us> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] Complaint from NYLUG
  165. 2019-11-20 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] Complaint from NYLUG
  166. 2019-11-20 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Sharecroppers
  167. 2019-11-20 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] ignorance and the media - ted talk
  168. 2019-11-18 Gabor Szabo <gabor-at-szabgab.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] [Perlweekly] #434 - How is Perl and Raku doing?
  169. 2019-11-20 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Your Brooklyn Congressmen at Work
  170. 2019-11-20 Chris Knadle <Chris.Knadle-at-coredump.us> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] Complaint from NYLUG
  171. 2019-11-20 From: "Yachna Narang" <yachnan-at-etalentnetwork.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Urgent need for Oracle and Unix/Linux Systems
  172. 2019-11-20 Ruben Safir <mrbrklyn-at-panix.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Fwd: Director Of Information Technology at MTA
  173. 2019-11-20 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] Complaint from NYLUG
  174. 2019-11-21 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] nice cheat sheet for terminal
  175. 2019-11-24 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] virish and virt-manager fails to installs
  176. 2019-11-25 Gabor Szabo <gabor-at-szabgab.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] [Perlweekly] #435 - Vue.js and Perl
  177. 2019-11-25 Gabor Szabo <gabor-at-szabgab.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] [Perlweekly] #435 - Vue.js and Perl
  178. 2019-11-27 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] from my websites - first page
  179. 2019-11-27 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] libvirt bug report
  180. 2019-11-28 Ruben Safir <ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com> Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Happy Thanksgiving

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