MESSAGE
DATE | 2019-11-05 |
FROM | Alexandre =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Fran=E7ois?= Garreau
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SUBJECT | Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Filtering indirection [Was: Re: list moderation]
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From hangout-bounces-at-nylxs.com Tue Nov 5 21:26:53 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: archive-at-mrbrklyn.com Delivered-To: archive-at-mrbrklyn.com Received: from www2.mrbrklyn.com (www2.mrbrklyn.com [96.57.23.82]) by mrbrklyn.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A6DCF16113A; Tue, 5 Nov 2019 21:26:52 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: hangout-at-www2.mrbrklyn.com Delivered-To: hangout-at-www2.mrbrklyn.com Received: by mrbrklyn.com (Postfix, from userid 1000) id DDA5D161150; Tue, 5 Nov 2019 21:24:56 -0500 (EST) Resent-From: Ruben Safir Resent-Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2019 21:24:56 -0500 Resent-Message-ID: <20191106022456.GD20969-at-www2.mrbrklyn.com> Resent-To: hangout-at-mrbrklyn.com X-Original-To: ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com Delivered-To: ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com Received: from lists.gnu.org (lists.gnu.org [209.51.188.17]) by mrbrklyn.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AE01A161132 for ; Tue, 5 Nov 2019 20:47:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost ([::1]:52266 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1iSAQ0-0006Ne-74 for ruben-at-mrbrklyn.com; Tue, 05 Nov 2019 20:47:32 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:58139) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1iSAPW-0006NX-Jw for gnu-misc-discuss-at-gnu.org; Tue, 05 Nov 2019 20:47:03 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1iSAPU-0007Nq-Pc for gnu-misc-discuss-at-gnu.org; Tue, 05 Nov 2019 20:47:02 -0500 Received: from portable.galex-713.eu ([2a00:5884:8305::1]:52360 helo=galex-713.eu) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1iSAPU-0007Jt-IG; Tue, 05 Nov 2019 20:47:00 -0500 Received: from gal by galex-713.eu with local (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1iSAPP-0000h4-L8; Wed, 06 Nov 2019 02:46:55 +0100 From: Alexandre =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Fran=E7ois?= Garreau To: gnu-misc-discuss-at-gnu.org Date: Wed, 06 Nov 2019 02:46:55 +0100 Message-ID: <6268542.OQv4aTrJGf-at-pc-713> In-Reply-To: <87h83ixmxv.fsf-at-gnu.org> References: <87o8xsan5b.fsf-at-gnu.org> <20191105170908.wayhgfmeoxvpmu45-at-function> <87h83ixmxv.fsf-at-gnu.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 2a00:5884:8305::1 X-BeenThere: gnu-misc-discuss-at-gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list X-UID: 63625 Cc: Samuel Thibault Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Filtering indirection [Was: Re: list moderation] X-BeenThere: hangout-at-nylxs.com List-Id: NYLXS Tech Talk and Politics List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Errors-To: hangout-bounces-at-nylxs.com Sender: "Hangout"
Le mardi 5 novembre 2019 18:17:16 CET, vous avez =C3=A9crit : > Samuel Thibault writes: > > Wow, this is so welcoming a community... > > =
> > Samuel
I initially thought that was in answer to a message of mine, because my MUA =
placed it under=E2=80=A6
> Ruben has been placed under moderation and I rejected the message that > you are referring to. If you received it, it's because he sent it to > you personally (I guess by scraping the email addresses of everyone who > has participated). I will see what options are available to us.
That raises two problems, a social and a technical one.
The second, technical, for censorship failure, is that to solve this proble= m =
currently involves better knowledge from users. That can be expected of =
Samuel=E2=80=A6 but will everybody know it? We must find a (likely technic= al, at =
least) solution, as if people won=E2=80=99t learn how to personally block/f= ilter =
someone (possibly easily, collectively, or maybe even automatically), maybe =
one day people will argue something such as =E2=80=9Cdevelop international = procedures =
so to force mail servers censor mail or shut down mail servers by force or =
ignoring from other lawful mail servers=E2=80=9D that would break the inter= net we =
know. Imagine gmail doing that.
For instance, I first thought =E2=80=9Cbut=E2=80=A6 you should not say *tha= t* about *that* mail =
if it didn=E2=80=99t got the List-Id/List-Post!=E2=80=9D, but that=E2=80=99= s too technical (it=E2=80=99s a =
problem most MUA currently don=E2=80=99t treat specially by default list me= ssages), =
and then =E2=80=9CMUA shouldn=E2=80=99t include the list address if there= =E2=80=99s not the lists =
headers=E2=80=9D =E2=80=A6but that=E2=80=99s negative reaction: wouldn=E2= =80=99t work (for instance for anyone =
not subscribed and never having received mail from the list (hence ignoring =
it=E2=80=99s a list)).
Actually a censoring list in a Cc would act exactely as someone who still =
receive mail from a thread person started (or was tiercely put in copy), bu= t =
doesn=E2=80=99t want to hear about: so you can=E2=80=99t be expected not to= answer because of =
it=E2=80=A6 But actually, that=E2=80=99s encouraging: solving it would then= solve the bigger =
problem!
So, normally, what is done? either person actively states to other recipien= ts =
they don=E2=80=99t want to be included anymore (we=E2=80=99d need a new sta= ndard for doing =
that automatically when filtering occurs, like a formally defined header fo= rmat =
for a control message to be sent), either person stop reading the answer pe= r =
the same filter used before (either =E2=80=9Crefusing to read=E2=80=9D, =E2= =80=9Crecognizing as spam=E2=80=9D, =
=E2=80=9Cnot looking at/putting in the folder=E2=80=9D (for instance when s= omeone stops =
reading a whole mailing-list (that sometimes occurs sadly, though most ofte= n =
because of (globally relevant) mail volume, sometimes also for social reaso= ns =
people here would like to avoid)) that is in user (interface) language: =E2= =80=9Cfold =
the whole thread and stop reading it=E2=80=9D.
To the former, that clearly means =E2=80=9Cformalize censorship rules=E2=80= =9D and maybe even =
=E2=80=9Cpublish and update them=E2=80=9D so to move implementation of it m= ore local or even =
client-side (that includes to publicly state if moderation is pre- or post-= , =
so to possibly tell people =E2=80=9C(don=E2=80=99t) wait for particular per= -message censorship =
rejection notice to read it=E2=80=9D, about who, what, to what extent/time/= duration/ end, etc.). Then, when mailing-list receive a mail it filters, it answers = with =
the mail refusal control message (that should look like a bounce) not only = the =
author, but *all* participants (informing: =E2=80=9Cplease don=E2=80=99t ta= lk about it to us =
anymore, don=E2=80=99t put us in copy=E2=80=9D, solving the sad situation t= hat happens on IRC =
when you /ignore someone, and then see half conversations and possibly end =
recursively ignoring everybody).
To the later, that means indirecting the filtering rules by the =E2=80=9Cre= ferences=E2=80=9D =
header (collect message-id=E2=80=99s of everything filtered, and filter the= same when it =
references it (depending on the filter and configuration (you might want to= be =
aware about the difference between what come from the list and what=E2=80= =99s =
personal))): so the list could have filtered Samuel=E2=80=99s message (and = other list =
participants wouldn=E2=80=99t have seen any quote or comment, even more esp= ecially =
under the wrong message). And people having received the censorship contro= l =
message could too. I proposed that feature to mailman hackers some years a= go, =
when similar censorship problems happened elsewhere (I think it was on a La =
Quadrature du Net (EFF french equivalent) ML), but they said it wasn=E2=80= =99t a =
priority, code was long to hack, they didn=E2=80=99t have time, and I ought= to do it =
myself, except it=E2=80=99s written in Python and I don=E2=80=99t write pyt= hon (and it isn=E2=80=99t =
extensible with C or Guile (sad dream of =E2=80=9CI can extend any software= with the =
favorite script language I want=E2=80=9D that never happened), nor will bec= ause this =
is python, not C or lisp).
Or the list could don=E2=80=99t filter anything, and people would, per-conf= ig, choose to =
see or not what moderators might have selected as =E2=80=9Cirrelevant=E2=80= =9D or =E2=80=9Cnasty=E2=80=9D =
(those could even be categorized differently in different filter lists, and= other =
people could publish other lists) and messages referencing these. That=E2= =80=99s my =
dream. Censorship wouldn=E2=80=99t exist anymore except in *explicitly* au= thoritarian =
circumstances, and we could argue against them, and actively make anti- censorship P2P systems that go against this automatically without added noi= se.
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