MESSAGE
| DATE | 2019-11-05 |
| FROM | Alexandre =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Fran=E7ois?= Garreau
|
| SUBJECT | Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Filtering indirection [Was: Re: list moderation]
|
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From: Alexandre =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Fran=E7ois?= Garreau
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Date: Wed, 06 Nov 2019 02:46:55 +0100
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Cc: Samuel Thibault
Subject: [Hangout - NYLXS] Filtering indirection [Was: Re: list moderation]
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Le mardi 5 novembre 2019 18:17:16 CET, vous avez =C3=A9crit :
> Samuel Thibault writes:
> > Wow, this is so welcoming a community...
> > =
> > Samuel
I initially thought that was in answer to a message of mine, because my MUA =
placed it under=E2=80=A6
> Ruben has been placed under moderation and I rejected the message that
> you are referring to. If you received it, it's because he sent it to
> you personally (I guess by scraping the email addresses of everyone who
> has participated). I will see what options are available to us.
That raises two problems, a social and a technical one.
The second, technical, for censorship failure, is that to solve this proble=
m =
currently involves better knowledge from users. That can be expected of =
Samuel=E2=80=A6 but will everybody know it? We must find a (likely technic=
al, at =
least) solution, as if people won=E2=80=99t learn how to personally block/f=
ilter =
someone (possibly easily, collectively, or maybe even automatically), maybe =
one day people will argue something such as =E2=80=9Cdevelop international =
procedures =
so to force mail servers censor mail or shut down mail servers by force or =
ignoring from other lawful mail servers=E2=80=9D that would break the inter=
net we =
know. Imagine gmail doing that.
For instance, I first thought =E2=80=9Cbut=E2=80=A6 you should not say *tha=
t* about *that* mail =
if it didn=E2=80=99t got the List-Id/List-Post!=E2=80=9D, but that=E2=80=99=
s too technical (it=E2=80=99s a =
problem most MUA currently don=E2=80=99t treat specially by default list me=
ssages), =
and then =E2=80=9CMUA shouldn=E2=80=99t include the list address if there=
=E2=80=99s not the lists =
headers=E2=80=9D =E2=80=A6but that=E2=80=99s negative reaction: wouldn=E2=
=80=99t work (for instance for anyone =
not subscribed and never having received mail from the list (hence ignoring =
it=E2=80=99s a list)).
Actually a censoring list in a Cc would act exactely as someone who still =
receive mail from a thread person started (or was tiercely put in copy), bu=
t =
doesn=E2=80=99t want to hear about: so you can=E2=80=99t be expected not to=
answer because of =
it=E2=80=A6 But actually, that=E2=80=99s encouraging: solving it would then=
solve the bigger =
problem!
So, normally, what is done? either person actively states to other recipien=
ts =
they don=E2=80=99t want to be included anymore (we=E2=80=99d need a new sta=
ndard for doing =
that automatically when filtering occurs, like a formally defined header fo=
rmat =
for a control message to be sent), either person stop reading the answer pe=
r =
the same filter used before (either =E2=80=9Crefusing to read=E2=80=9D, =E2=
=80=9Crecognizing as spam=E2=80=9D, =
=E2=80=9Cnot looking at/putting in the folder=E2=80=9D (for instance when s=
omeone stops =
reading a whole mailing-list (that sometimes occurs sadly, though most ofte=
n =
because of (globally relevant) mail volume, sometimes also for social reaso=
ns =
people here would like to avoid)) that is in user (interface) language: =E2=
=80=9Cfold =
the whole thread and stop reading it=E2=80=9D.
To the former, that clearly means =E2=80=9Cformalize censorship rules=E2=80=
=9D and maybe even =
=E2=80=9Cpublish and update them=E2=80=9D so to move implementation of it m=
ore local or even =
client-side (that includes to publicly state if moderation is pre- or post-=
, =
so to possibly tell people =E2=80=9C(don=E2=80=99t) wait for particular per=
-message censorship =
rejection notice to read it=E2=80=9D, about who, what, to what extent/time/=
duration/
end, etc.). Then, when mailing-list receive a mail it filters, it answers =
with =
the mail refusal control message (that should look like a bounce) not only =
the =
author, but *all* participants (informing: =E2=80=9Cplease don=E2=80=99t ta=
lk about it to us =
anymore, don=E2=80=99t put us in copy=E2=80=9D, solving the sad situation t=
hat happens on IRC =
when you /ignore someone, and then see half conversations and possibly end =
recursively ignoring everybody).
To the later, that means indirecting the filtering rules by the =E2=80=9Cre=
ferences=E2=80=9D =
header (collect message-id=E2=80=99s of everything filtered, and filter the=
same when it =
references it (depending on the filter and configuration (you might want to=
be =
aware about the difference between what come from the list and what=E2=80=
=99s =
personal))): so the list could have filtered Samuel=E2=80=99s message (and =
other list =
participants wouldn=E2=80=99t have seen any quote or comment, even more esp=
ecially =
under the wrong message). And people having received the censorship contro=
l =
message could too. I proposed that feature to mailman hackers some years a=
go, =
when similar censorship problems happened elsewhere (I think it was on a La =
Quadrature du Net (EFF french equivalent) ML), but they said it wasn=E2=80=
=99t a =
priority, code was long to hack, they didn=E2=80=99t have time, and I ought=
to do it =
myself, except it=E2=80=99s written in Python and I don=E2=80=99t write pyt=
hon (and it isn=E2=80=99t =
extensible with C or Guile (sad dream of =E2=80=9CI can extend any software=
with the =
favorite script language I want=E2=80=9D that never happened), nor will bec=
ause this =
is python, not C or lisp).
Or the list could don=E2=80=99t filter anything, and people would, per-conf=
ig, choose to =
see or not what moderators might have selected as =E2=80=9Cirrelevant=E2=80=
=9D or =E2=80=9Cnasty=E2=80=9D =
(those could even be categorized differently in different filter lists, and=
other =
people could publish other lists) and messages referencing these. That=E2=
=80=99s my =
dream. Censorship wouldn=E2=80=99t exist anymore except in *explicitly* au=
thoritarian =
circumstances, and we could argue against them, and actively make anti-
censorship P2P systems that go against this automatically without added noi=
se.
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