|FROM ||Ruben Safir
|SUBJECT ||Re: [Hangout - NYLXS]
|On Wed, Nov 06, 2019 at 07:02:53PM +0100, Alexandre François Garreau wrote:
> Le mercredi 6 novembre 2019, 09:56:20 CET Andreas Enge a écrit :
> > On Wed, Nov 06, 2019 at 01:56:15AM +0300, Dmitry Alexandrov wrote:
> > > Instead of making GNU more welcoming place by lessening the burden of
> > > formalities, you in fact propose GNU to withdraw deeper into itself by
> > > inventing ideology-driven ‘contracts’. And in order to add an insult to
> > > injury — to cover it with Western buzzwords like ‘inclusiveness’. :-\
> > Ideology? Hm.
> I think for the right-away following he might consider the way you held
> harassment, anti-harassment and its relationship to welcomness a whole
> ideology per se, but more about this later.
> > I do not see how the aim of creating a harassment-free
> > environment could be construed as making GNU a less welcoming place...
> Doing so through censorship and exclusion could. It depends from exclusion of
> (how many) who, how is this advertised, how is this temporary/definitive, etc.
> as well as how much harassment there is already and how many does that
> If in the end there are more potential harassers than actually harassed
> people, that is strictly the case.
> But you also could ban too much potential harassers in regard to harassed
> people and not be productive enough in this concern.
> Or cause self-censorship or people fearing to be banned though they would not,
> and you would have to compare this (hard to judge) number to the number of
> people who leaves because of harassment (less hard to judge… but that ought to
> be measured too… though it’s hard too…).
> You see, if you care only about being welcoming, anti-harassment is only a
> cold calculation… and it is actually expensive calculation (and measuring)!
> Look: we could even speculate that there are already so much more men than
> women coming, that it is not worth defending the later! How horrible,
> saddening and pessimistic toward humankind…
> But maybe what you want is not a place more generally welcoming but more
> “inclusive” in the very culturally specific meaning of “inclusive
> proportionally to actual demographics in the outside world”, so you’d consider
> worth defending a few women even if that means excluding more men.
> But then that’s linked to something that’s hardly not an ideology: anti-
No - what I want is more Black American kids and adults particpating,
from the deep ghetto and from the schools and jails.
Women don't deserve special treatment. They are fine.
15 year old Black youths trying to decide if it would be better to deal
cocaine or write useful free software... ===> Now that is a goal worth
> Personally I support it, but I don’t think exclusion or censorship is the way.
> We should just actively show our despise and counter-support for sexist
> behavior, possibly ignore it, protecting women when in legitimacy, etc. (if
> any people are pissed and/or leave because something is done by a woman, I
> think everybody is comfortable with that and keep supporting that woman in her
> role and legitimacy, rather than pretending she’s responsible, should hide, or
> > Neither how the word "inclusiveness" could be interpreted as an insult.
> > Nor whether we need to distinguish "Western" from "Eastern", "Northern"
> > or "Southern"; maybe we should add "regardless of origins" :-)
> Different places have different cultures. Now look out and note, there are
> places where feminism is held in really negative views (think to India, China,
> Medium Orient, etc.): people supporting it may be put in *prison*. And yet
> women might defend their right or have support legally or popularly, but
> without using that term, or using different strategies than in our countries (I
> heard in Turkey, anarchists preferred describing themselves as “anarchist
> women” and “anti-autoritharian” because of that).
> “GNU Project is feminist and act as such” (“westernly”) might lower the whole
> number of contributors or supporters from some countries where feminism is
> seen as a “western” thing due to both local nationalist propaganda and
> generally imperialist propaganda that support the view that “West” or North/
> rich countries are more feminist, equalitarian or simply just invented
> feminism (by putting much accent on women’s struggle in liberal countries such
> as France and US (where the very word “feminism” comes from, as well as
> liberalism) and hiding it when it comes from poorer countries (like Irak who
> was first country to make women vote, or Russia who made so much for women
> (much more than US) initially after revolution)).
> It’s not to mean GNU Project is to declare itself “feminism-agnostic” just as
> if it would officially declaim itself “climatosceptic” on the ground that it has
> nothing to do with free software and we should welcome climate-change
> denialists and anti-feminists, because that would worsen the case as we would
> set ourselves on lower ideological standards than mainstream though in highly-
> contributing western/north/rich countries. But we can support women and not
> exclude anybody at the same time.
> It was noted that sometimes antifeminist countries have better levels of women
> employment in CS and IT than liberal countries. Think of Saudi Arabia and
> I came to believe than positive support and material help have commonly bigger
> impact than wording and exclusive environment (Russia is a good example of it
> imho: I heard about governmental programs, economical conjecture and crisis
> that explain pretty well that situation). Ideological or strategical
> homogeneity is not something to develop in an international environment, or we
> might lessen it.
So many immigrant groups have swept through our town
that Brooklyn, like Atlantis, reaches mythological
proportions in the mind of the world - RI Safir 1998
DRM is THEFT - We are the STAKEHOLDERS - RI Safir 2002
http://www.nylxs.com - Leadership Development in Free Software
http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/resources - Unpublished Archive
http://www.coinhangout.com - coins!
Being so tracked is for FARM ANIMALS and extermination camps,
but incompatible with living as a free human being. -RI Safir 2013
Hangout mailing list