|Re: [hangout] Re: Statement about the NYLXS & New Yorkers For Fai
On Sat, 2003-03-01 at 15:47, Jay Sulzberger wrote:
> On Thu, 27 Feb 2003, Ruben Safir wrote:
> > > > > >The reason for all this doesn't have to do with me supposedly being
> > > > > >an irresponsible NYLXS instructor or a thief of class funds or a
> > > > > >"cybersquatter" or a copyright or trademark infringer. He has been
> > > > > >trying to make me out as an evil person just because he wanted to be
> > > > > >the sole person in charge of New Yorkers for Fair Use. That's the
> > > > > >whole story.
> > I don't think at this point anyone other than Kathy can actually swollow this.
> No. Ruben, you have engaged in a campaign of vilification against Brett
> and other members of NYFU for months now. Each and every one of your
> claims is false.
Brett's claims have been absurd from the get-go as he was never involved
in the group even as an observer for its first year or so. Your claims
have gone from being merely unsubstantiated to absolutely absurd. You
should have quit while you were ahead.
> The whole story is that you wanted to run NYFU as dictator. NYFU did not
> agree and you left. Then, whenever NYFU announced actions or results, you
> attacked NYFU in public.
First, it needs to be noted the way you use the term "dictatorship"
applies equally to NYLUG, the Free Software Foundation, the Linux
kernel, the group co-run by Michael Smith and Jay Sulzberger known as
LXNY, and probably every group that doesn't hold elections or exist on
the basis of some legal documents.
To the best of my knowledge, and _I was there_, NYFU was ALWAYS a
"dictatorship". It was never the kind of group you and Brett now claim
it was. I have heard and seen nothing that indicates otherwise, other
than your claim that NYFU became community property at some meeting I
missed, and you back your claim with absolutely nothing other than
recitation of a vision of NYFU that never existed in reality.
I had thought this was a misunderstanding on your part originally Jay,
because you were only at a few meetings and really weren't involved
except peripherally until the Sunday door-to-door action. It was
possible that you really didn't know any better. Brett on the other
hand was never at meetings or even participating on the list before
then. Brett's fantasies about being the "Managing Director" aren't even
entertaining fiction, they're just sad and painful to read.
You guys have as much credibility claiming to be the "legitimate
management" of NY Fair Use as I do. If someone has the minutes of the
meetings and the NY Fair Use archives, this should all be clear from the
written record. You and Brett might not have realized this since he
wasn't there and you weren't there much, but records were kept, minutes
taken, and you guys aren't in them. Whether or not they still exist is
another story. They weren't intended to be retained except to eliminate
debate about who said what and who was supposed to do what. Perhaps
they will materialize now.
> No. Ruben, you never consulted NYFU about your planned actions. You gave
> orders, without consultation, without discussion. That is not the way NYFU
> runs, and NYFU never was run by a dictator. Perhaps some NYLXSers are
> willing to put up with your abuse, but NYFU members are not.
No, NYFU was _always_ a "dictatorship". It was never a democracy, it
was never public property, Ruben always had the final word, and at this
point, you and Brett have been kicked out of NYFU and you need to stop
pretending you're NYFU and start a new group. Fork Jay, that's what
good upstanding members of the community do in a case like this and it
would go a long way toward the rehabilitation of your group if it would
start doing the right thing.
> Ruben, stop. After you threw NYLXS off the Net and Brett and I worked hard
> to get NYLXS back on, you were happy to bring part of the NYLXS website
> over to Brett's machine running nylxs.org, and Brett and you put the site
I'm getting tired of this "manipulation of the facts". This "we just
want to help" is manufactured fiction designed to advance your
position. If you and Brett were trying to help you would have stopped
"helping" when you were asked to.
Ruben acted like an ass and got HIS server thrown off the net by losing
HIS DSL line. You keep suggesting Ruben attacked NYLXS or threw them
off the Internet and you know that's a false statement. It's all in the
record at the WWWAC archives of why NYLXS found itself off the 'net.
NYLXS's hosting service lost its Internet connection because the
operator of the hosting service decided to declare war on the
exclamation point. There's literally thousands of people who know what
happened. Your choice of a truth to bend is a poor one for your cause.
There's at least 2500 people out there that know your version of the
events has nothing to do with reality. What really happened made Ruben
look bad enough. Your "embellishment" just makes _you_ look bad and
focuses further scrutiny on your other statements.
> Ruben you are the one who threw NYLXS off the Net last summer. And you
> threw NYLXS off the Net without asking either the Board or the membership.
> You did it more than once, and more than once Brett and I stepped in to
> keep NYLXS on the Net.
If you and Brett had ever actually been NYLXS members, you might have
had grounds to go to the NYLXS board and at least ask for a motion to
move the NYLXS site to another hosting service. You probably could've
stirred up enough discontent to get a discussion about a recall of the
NYLXS president for his personal activities. As it stands, neither of
you has or had any standing in the matter. If you two care so damn much
about NYLXS why didn't you ever JOIN it?
> NYLXSers have you heard the full story of Ruben's denial of service attacks
> last summer? Did you know that NYLXS almost had no host, no email lists, no
> web presence at a time when NYLXS needed these things for coordination and
If they've heard the story, they know your claims are untrue, and add
absolutely nothing but distraction value to this discussion, even if
they were true, and they're not.
> Brett and I did not go to the membership nor to the Board last summer,
> beyond informal contacts, because we have been trying deperately to keep
> Ruben's reputation intact. His reputation as a difficult but serious
> leader and organizer. But now Ruben is abusing us and abusing NYFU and
> attempting to obstruct the work of NYFU. So we will answer.
Are you also hard at work rehabilitating the reputation of other lost
causes who don't want your services? Even if Ruben gave a damn what
people think of him, what does this have to do with ANYTHING? This
somehow justifies stealing Ruben's property and the property of NYLXS?
When you've returned the stolen property, you might have some
credibility when you want to have a discussion about what's wrong with
Ruben. Assuming everyone's not going to be talking about what's wrong
with _you_ for the next few years now. The one individual party to this
who had a fairly sterling reputation to lose is you Jay.
If you think it bolsters your case to admit to covering for someone
whose reputation "desperately" needs protecting, think again.
> If NYFU and other organizations had not squelched the FCC BFM proposal, the
> Sub-Committee might now be faced with a recommendation, or worse, a actual
> Broadcast Flag Mandate, in the form of an FCC regulation. The lobbying of
> Congress would be much harder.
If true, still utterly irrelevant to the cybersquatting, theft and
trademark violations that this is all about. If you don't like what NY
Fair Use is doing, join another group or start your own. You've got to
stop pretending you're NYFU. You're not fooling anyone anymore.
> To prevent confusion, NYFU is not concerned with differences of opinion
> about tactics with Ruben or with NYLXS or with NYLXSers. We just want
> Ruben to stop claiming to be NYFU. And since some NYLXSers seem to set
> much store by legal forms, allow me to say that NYFU is incorporated in New
> York State as a non-profit organization.
Note the date. It's long after Brett stole NY Fair Use from Ruben. Did
you really think no one would look it up?
Selected Entity Name: NEW YORKERS FOR FAIR USE, INC.
Current Entity Name: NEW YORKERS FOR FAIR USE, INC.
Initial DOS Filing Date: 02/12/2003
Jurisdiction: NEW YORK
Entity Type: DOMESTIC NOT-FOR-PROFIT CORPORATION
Current Entity Status: ACTIVE
DOS Process (Address to which DOS will mail process if accepted
on behalf of the entity)
NEW YORKERS FOR FAIR USE, INC.
622A PRESIDENT STREET
BROOKLYN, NEW YORK 11215
622A PRESIDENT STREET
BROOKLYN, NEW YORK 11215
So, let me get this straight. Brett steals Ruben's identity, then
registers it in his name. Again. This proves what? That he has no
shame? That he wants to make it easy for the process server when Ruben
or NYLXS sues him?
> And Ruben is not head of NYFU, not on the Board of NYFU, and not a working
> member of NYFU. Ruben left NYFU. Inded, he almost quit NYLXS last fall,
> but he did not. I asked Ruben not to quit either organization, but Ruben
> quit NYFU, and remarkably, then suggested that NYFU go out of existence,
> just because he quit. Of course, we at NYFU continued our work.
Even if your unsubstantiated claim about Ruben quitting could be proved,
you still have not shown proof that he ever gave permission for you and
Brett to call yourselves NY Fair Use and use his property, and a name
synonymous to all who knew of it with Ruben I. Safir. Your statement
above is basically an admission of the theft Ruben's complaining about.
If Ruben's lying to us all and he really did give you and Brett NY Fair
Use, then you apparently neglected to get either a document or a public
statement to that effect. While a document seems unlikely, no one, not
Ruben or you, the men who announce EVERYTHING, sent out an announcement
to that effect. If Ruben gets a mosquito bite, he cross-posts an
announcement to a half-dozen lists. The difference between you and him
is you don't cross-post. Faced with this, the notion that such a thing
ever took place seems highly improbable. It is, UNBELIEVABLE.
> To repeat yet again: Neither Brett nor I nor NYFU nor, as far as I know,
> anyone at all in NYFU wants to take over NYLXS, nor do we denigrate in
> public the members, the organization, or the work of NYLXS.
If you want to know what NYFU wants, just ask Ruben. I understand NYFU
wants to be taken over by NYLXS, not the other way around. Actually I
believe the NYLXS board voted to accept, so ask them what NYFU wants.
I'm sure they'll be happy to tell you.
> I admit, I do wish the notices of events were formatted better, but that
> opinion is mine, and only in my capacity as Corresponding Secretary of LXNY.
Did you consult with Michael before you just dragged the LXNY name
through this mud, or does that fall under your "dictatorial"
Give it up already. You and Brett have stolen NYFU, and you managed to
get a finger on a piece of NYLXS. Your efforts have paid off, you've
convinced me that you're both acting in bad faith. Every time you or
Brett says something it just looks worse and worse for the both of
you. Happy now? I never suspected you were capable of being a party
to something like this Jay. After meeting Brett Wynkoop in the FSF
booth at the expo, and having him attempt to pass himself off as Bradley
Kuhn so he could talk shit about Ruben and tell me other stuff I know
isn't true, I sure don't believe a word he has to say.
> To repeat: This difference of opinion about tactics is not what the dispute
> bewteen NYFU and Ruben is about. On our side, we just want Ruben to stop
> claiming to be NYFU.
To repeat: NY Fair Use has made it clear you do not speak for NYFU,
you're not in NYFU, and now you've been banned from being in NYFU.
You're as _not_ NYFU as anyone can possibly be at this point. If you
care about fair use, set up your own group. It's real easy, and I'll
spring for the $9 to register a .org . I'll even promise not to
"Wynkoop" you by registering it in my name instead of yours.
NYLXS: New Yorker Free Software Users Scene
Fair Use -
because it's either fair use or useless....
NYLXS is a trademark of NYLXS, Inc